HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 140 - AVS Forum
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post #4171 of 4289 Old 08-20-2014, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I wonder why none of them stick an integrated thermoelectric cooler into their photodiode packaging for easy mitigation of temperature induced drifts. I don't believe it adds too much to costs. Perhaps it is due to the added power draw as that might require the meter to have batteries.
I suspect it would add great cost, relative to everything else that makes up a colorimeter, and exceeding the power capabilities of USB would add even more cost, complexity and inconvenience, so it's no puzzle to me that no-one uses this approach. Maybe in the ultra high end exotic (think astronomical instruments).
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post #4172 of 4289 Old 08-21-2014, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
You can load the calibrations direct from the CD or install .exe using oeminst.
All I can find on the supplied CD is colourmunkidisplaysetup.exe. I downloaded the latest version (released july 2014) and installed it last night, obvs HCFR won't run when that's running so I've disabled it and will run another calibration later. I see the drivers have been updated to a 2013 revision, my previous install dates from Oct 2012.

Hopefully this will help, otherwise I'll have to spunk another £100 on another CM display just to see if it's any different.
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post #4173 of 4289 Old 08-21-2014, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
All I can find on the supplied CD is colourmunkidisplaysetup.exe. I downloaded the latest version (released july 2014) and installed it last night, obvs HCFR won't run when that's running so
Well, you can install the X-Rite SW if that's what you really want to do, but you certainly don't need to do that just to make the CCSS calibration files available. Putting the CD in the computer and running oeminst is enough - it will extract the relevant files and save the resulting .ccss's to where ArgyllCMS and/or HCFR can find them.
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post #4174 of 4289 Old 08-21-2014, 06:09 AM
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Hi, everyone. I want to ask does 3.0.4 work fine on win7 64 bit with spyder3? I have tried on old version 2.0 under win7 64 bit but the data is incorrect...

If still can't works fine, I have to find old notebook under Win xp......

Thanks
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post #4175 of 4289 Old 08-21-2014, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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You will be better off using the current version 3.1.5 which works fine with win7.

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post #4176 of 4289 Old 08-21-2014, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Well, you can install the X-Rite SW if that's what you really want to do, but you certainly don't need to do that just to make the CCSS calibration files available. Putting the CD in the computer and running oeminst is enough - it will extract the relevant files and save the resulting .ccss's to where ArgyllCMS and/or HCFR can find them.
But if I've got the various corrections already there in the drop down list (e.g. CCFL IPS, CCFL wide gamut, LCD RG, LCG RGB, LCD White and so on) then surely that means that they're already installed?

I've just tried another calibration anyway and I'm still getting the same thing: it's saying there's not enough red even though I can see an obvious red tint on the screen as it is.

Seeing as a calibration on my previous TV went fine without any change to either the software or the meter, it's gotta be one of two things: either my new TV has some different backlight voodoo which isn't accounted for with these current correction files, or my CM Display has gone bad. *le sigh* I think I'll have to bite the bullet and buy a new one, just to make sure.

Anyone else here using HCFR with the current 2014 Bravias?
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post #4177 of 4289 Old 08-21-2014, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

Seeing as a calibration on my previous TV went fine without any change to either the software or the meter, it's gotta be one of two things: either my new TV has some different backlight voodoo which isn't accounted for with these current correction files, or my CM Display has gone bad. *le sigh* I think I'll have to bite the bullet and buy a new one, just to make sure.
Try to find out what the Bravia spectral distribution looks like since the meter is probably not the problem. Best solution would be to beg/borrow/(don't steal) an i1pro2 to profile your munki on it.
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post #4178 of 4289 Old 08-21-2014, 12:29 PM
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you need help

hi, i am german and can help u to translate in german ...
for me, i want to underststand how hcfr is working, and other hand i need to learn more english :-)

I love my homecinema and my beamer marantz vp11s1 - and after changing the lamp, i must calibrate the beamer ... (for that, i buy spyder4 hd TV)

if you are interested, dont hesitate to contact me:-)

juwelix
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post #4179 of 4289 Old 08-21-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Try to find out what the Bravia spectral distribution looks like since the meter is probably not the problem. Best solution would be to beg/borrow/(don't steal) an i1pro2 to profile your munki on it.
I think stealing one would be my only option. I've done some more calibrations and I've got my primaries a bit tighter than where they were before, so perhaps the latest CM drivers have had an effect. It still looks a touch too red in the lower gamma registers, but it's better than where it was before.
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post #4180 of 4289 Old 08-22-2014, 11:25 AM
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Kindof makes me sad to read about people buying the Spyder colormeters ... but maybe that's just me.

Without the ability to profile them with a reference meter they seem to vary widely from standards.

Last edited by Brian Hampton; 08-22-2014 at 11:56 AM.
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post #4181 of 4289 Old 08-23-2014, 02:16 PM
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I've ordered another Munki anyway. If I get the same readings I can always send it back.
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post #4182 of 4289 Old 08-25-2014, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
You seem to have omitted the interesting bits - ie. what happened after loading dccmtr.dll, etc.

Try running oem inst with the CD present, or run oeminst on the setup.exe file on the CD, or the setup.exe from the DataColor website.
oeminst.exe setup.exe solved one problem.

Loading file 'setup.exe'..done
'setup.exe' seems to be a VISE archive
Input file 'setup.exe' is a VISE archive file base 0x10008
Failed to locate file 'CVSpyder.dll' in VISE archiveInput file 'setup.exe' is a
VISE archive file base 0x10008
Located driver entry 'dccmtr.dll' at offset 0x772cf
Located driver file 'dccmtr.dll' at offset 0xe5209
Located and decompressed file 'dccmtr.dll' from VISE archive
Returning 'dccmtr.dll' length 106496 from 'setup.exe'
Failed to locate Spyder 2 firmware in 'dccmtr.dll'
Returning 'spyd4cal.bin' length 1968 from 'dccmtr.dll'
Wrote 'C:/Users/Matthew/AppData/Roaming/ArgyllCMS/spyd4cal.bin' 1968 bytes

However it did absolutely nothing. The software is still reading the same incorrect gamma and color values as before.
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post #4183 of 4289 Old 08-25-2014, 09:35 PM
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Do you think it would be beneficial to calibration selecting CIE2000 instead of Recommended for the Color difference formula??
What about Gray scale dE handling? w/Gamma or w/o Gamma?

With plasma, what gamma settings better to choose: Pure power curve or Black compensated power curve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd
I have been considering "partial" grayscale measurement repeats however and that would accomplish the same thing. Basically you would click on a level and the scan would include from there on up.
Yes, it would be nice to have an option to skip the reading of the first step (or type it manually).
It will be even more beneficial for OLEDs since the black is 0.0000000 and would take forever to read.
Sometimes HCFR show "Not Responding" on top of the window when measuring the black step 0.007 cd/m2 with ST60 and takes at least 10 seconds.

Moreover, when doing continues measurement, to stop the readings I have to wait long time when on black shade because apparently HCFR waits for the meters reading even when I already pressed Stop.

Last edited by James Freeman; 08-26-2014 at 02:36 AM.
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post #4184 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 08:30 AM
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Well, I got my new munki today and while its readings are noticeably different than my old one, the overall effect is still very much the same: noticeable red tint at the lower end of the greyscale, even though HCFR's giving me some very good numbers back. I am now officially stumped.
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post #4185 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Well, I got my new munki today and while its readings are noticeably different than my old one, the overall effect is still very much the same: noticeable red tint at the lower end of the greyscale, even though HCFR's giving me some very good numbers back. I am now officially stumped.
When you say lower end...how low are we talking? Are the mid grays to white looking good? I presume you are also using the relevant x-rite correction file for your meter?
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post #4186 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I am now officially stumped.
There is no riddle here, you can not quantify and correct your colorimeter for what you perceive to be a possible error in it's reading of red without a spectrometer.

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post #4187 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 10:13 AM
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Do you think it would be beneficial to calibration selecting CIE2000 instead of Recommended for the Color difference formula??
I'm surprised most don't use CIE2000.

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What about Gray scale dE handling? w/Gamma or w/o Gamma?
Relative gives the best errors.

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With plasma, what gamma settings better to choose: Pure power curve or Black compensated power curve?
I found black compensation gave me cloudy results. Power is nice and deep with no crush and still great shadow detail on Plasma.
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post #4188 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 10:29 AM
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Thank you xvfx.

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Originally Posted by xvfx View Post
Relative gives the best errors.
Which one is Relative in HCFR (its in the preference menu)?
w/Gamma OR w/o Gamma?

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I found black compensation gave me cloudy results. Power is nice and deep with no crush and still great shadow detail on Plasma.
Yeah, what I thought.
If the deep blacks of plasma capable delivering pure power curve without black crush, why not.

Do you think the studios master on a pure power gamma curve on an OLED broadcast displays, or a compensated blacks gamma curve?
Take this Sony OLED Mastering Monitor for example, do you think it uses pure power curve which it's easily capable of,
or the studios that master Blu-Rays use a poorer LCD/Plasma monitor with a non pure power curve?
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post #4189 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 10:29 AM
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With plasma, what gamma settings better to choose: Pure power curve or Black compensated power curve?
I think it really comes down to personal preference. I actually use BT.1886 and I really like it on my Plasma. The picture still has a lot of "pop" to it and it doesn't wash out shadow detail at all on my PN60F5300 set. Also, keep in mind that ambient light levels have a lot to do with what Gamma you should use. I find BT.1886 pretty good even in pitch black conditions but others prefer something like ~ PL 2.4
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post #4190 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 10:30 AM
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There is no riddle here, you can not quantify and correct your colorimeter for what you perceive to be a possible error in it's reading of red without a spectrometer.
...which I don't have access to, so I'm still up a certain creek without a paddle. I thought I'd reach an impasse with home calibration at some point, I didn't realise it'd take less than two years before I either give up or blow a grand on a spectrometer (which ain't gonna happen).

I just don't understand how the same meter provided such excellent results (according to both my eyes and the HCFR numbers) with my old set only weeks ago. Or maybe it was 'wrong' with that set and now I'm seeing it as it should be? Should greyscale (say, 10/20/30%) have a warm, almost brownish tint to it?
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post #4191 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I just don't understand how the same meter provided such excellent results (according to both my eyes and the HCFR numbers) with my old set only weeks ago. Or maybe it was 'wrong' with that set and now I'm seeing it as it should be? Should greyscale (say, 10/20/30%) have a warm, almost brownish tint to it?
It's really hard to comment on this as everyone perceives color differently. Plenty of folks seem to prefer much cooler color temps (>7000K) and then find a D65 calibration to be too yellowish/warm. If you have not previously been exposed to a properly calibrated set, and are accustomed to cooler color settings, then a properly calibrated display at 6500K may very well look too yellowish/warm to you.
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post #4192 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
...which I don't have access to, so I'm still up a certain creek without a paddle. I thought I'd reach an impasse with home calibration at some point, I didn't realise it'd take less than two years before I either give up or blow a grand on a spectrometer (which ain't gonna happen).

I just don't understand how the same meter provided such excellent results (according to both my eyes and the HCFR numbers) with my old set only weeks ago. Or maybe it was 'wrong' with that set and now I'm seeing it as it should be? Should greyscale (say, 10/20/30%) have a warm, almost brownish tint to it?
I bought 2 rev D i1Pro spectro's on Ebay for under $200 each... what's this about blowing a grand?

(I didn't mean to win 2 and resold the extra for what I bought it for.)

I highly recommend it. You want results you can trust at some point. The latest i1d3's are very good according to lots of people... so that could be a second choice.
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post #4193 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I just don't understand how the same meter provided such excellent results (according to both my eyes and the HCFR numbers) with my old set only weeks ago.
Since you are measuring a different spectral distribution what you are describing is the primary drawback of colorimeters, they require different correction factors for different primary spectral distributions and may perform better/worse on each depending on the nature of the spectrum even after correction.

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post #4194 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
It's really hard to comment on this as everyone perceives color differently. Plenty of folks seem to prefer much cooler color temps (>7000K) and then find a D65 calibration to be too yellowish/warm. If you have not previously been exposed to a properly calibrated set, and are accustomed to cooler color settings, then a properly calibrated display at 6500K may very well look too yellowish/warm to you.
I've been calibrating my sets for nearly the last two years (and utilising the 'Warm' picture presets for many years before that) using the aforementioned colormunki display meter with HCFR, and everything told me that I was hitting 6500K across the board, I was getting extremely low dE's for both greyscale and primaries/secondaries etc (and yes, I was using the proper correction files). Heck of it is, I still am getting those excellent figures with HCFR on my latest TV with a brand new meter, but it's also got this rusty brown vibe going on which I'm at a loss to explain. Ah well.
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post #4195 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 11:04 AM
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Thank you xvfx.


Which one is Relative in HCFR (its in the preference menu)?
w/Gamma OR w/o Gamma?
Yeah. It's in that same drop down. I think Relative is the last entry with the two gamma options. It is it's own entry.


Quote:
Yeah, what I thought.
If the deep blacks of plasma capable delivering pure power curve without black crush, why not.

Do you think the studios master on a pure power gamma curve on an OLED broadcast displays, or a compensated blacks gamma curve?
Take this Sony OLED Mastering Monitor for example, do you think it uses pure power curve which it's easily capable of,
or the studios that master Blu-Rays use a poorer LCD/Plasma monitor with a non pure power curve?
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I think it really comes down to personal preference. I actually use BT.1886 and I really like it on my Plasma. The picture still has a lot of "pop" to it and it doesn't wash out shadow detail at all on my PN60F5300 set. Also, keep in mind that ambient light levels have a lot to do with what Gamma you should use. I find BT.1886 pretty good even in pitch black conditions but others prefer something like ~ PL 2.4
All I can say is, Kevin Miller said 2.4 is for viewing in total darkness (what I view for Blu-Ray) in one of the shoot out videos, 2012. 2.3/35 for dim (some to little ambient light) regular TV viewing.

Power Law I've found isn't good for LCD's. Again, suppose it can depend on the model…
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post #4196 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 11:13 AM
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Since you are measuring a different spectral distribution what you are describing is the primary drawback of colorimeters, they require different correction factors for different primary spectral distributions and may perform better/worse on each depending on the nature of the spectrum even after correction.
Like I said, I just didn't expect there to be such a difference. It may even be that my old set was wrong and the new one is correct because my A series Sony 4K had Quantum Dots whereas this new B series does not, maybe the White LED correction file is in fact more accurate for the more conventional white LED backlight on the B? I guess I'm just flying blind at this point.

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Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
I bought 2 rev D i1Pro spectro's on Ebay for under $200 each... what's this about blowing a grand?

(I didn't mean to win 2 and resold the extra for what I bought it for.)

I highly recommend it. You want results you can trust at some point. The latest i1d3's are very good according to lots of people... so that could be a second choice.
I must be looking for the wrong thing because I keep coming with £800/£900/£1000 i1 pro jobbies. What should I be searching for specifically? (And FYI the Colormunki Display uses the same hardware (with the same correction files AFAIK) as the retail version of the d3, so I'm not using some rinky-dink meter to begin with. It's at the bottom of the tree for sure, but it didn't come out of a cereal box either. )

Last edited by Geoff D; 08-26-2014 at 11:39 AM.
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post #4197 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Like I said, I just didn't expect there to be such a difference. It may even be that my old set was wrong and the new one is correct because my A series Sony 4K had Quantum Dots whereas this new B series does not, maybe the White LED correction file is in fact more accurate for the more conventional white LED backlight on the B? I guess I'm just flying blind at this point.


I must be looking for the wrong thing because I keep coming with £800/£900/£1000 i1 pro jobbies. What should I be searching for specifically? (And FYI the Colormunki Display uses the same hardware (with the same correction files AFAIK) as the retail version of the d3, so I'm not using some rinky-dink meter to begin with. It's at the bottom of the tree for sure, but it didn't come out of a cereal box either. )
Oh the colormunki based on the i1d3 should be good.

The only path to the cheap i1 pro is EFI ES-1000 which is the same thing... Just don't tell anyone ... ha ha..
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post #4198 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 12:38 PM
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Oh the colormunki based on the i1d3 should be good.

The only path to the cheap i1 pro is EFI ES-1000 which is the same thing... Just don't tell anyone ... ha ha..
I did just find one of those on ebay, it was at least 6 years old though.
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post #4199 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 02:00 PM
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All I can say is, Kevin Miller said 2.4 is for viewing in total darkness (what I view for Blu-Ray) in one of the shoot out videos, 2012. 2.3/35 for dim (some to little ambient light) regular TV viewing.

Power Law I've found isn't good for LCD's. Again, suppose it can depend on the model…
Those numbers make sense. BT.1886 gets up to around 2.3 on the mid to high end which works quite well in dark viewing conditions. In pitch black, you could drop it a tad to 2.4 (and I have) but 2.3 doesn't look bad either. The lower gamma with BT.1886 on the lower end is a personal preference and also a function of how well your panel handles blacks. Discussing gamma settings is a bit like discussing religion here on AVS though . Given that the source material itself is not necessarily mastered at a specific gamma, it really is more a personal taste thing for viewers. Maybe eventually, everything will be standardized to BT.1886.
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post #4200 of 4289 Old 08-26-2014, 02:53 PM
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FWIW, my initial uncalibrated readings with HCFR on my 55X9005B were very similar to what this gentleman encountered on his 65" B series set, i.e. a huge undersaturation of red across the greyscale. Different panels, different setups (he's using Chromapure with [?] meter) and yet very, very similar results.

Instead of doing yet another calibration by tweaking the White Balance myself from scratch, I dialled in his WB settings and they're damned near perfect according to HCFR (using the White LED correction), with only a tiny little tweak in the Blue Gain needed to get it right on the nose. This resulted in an average greyscale dE of 0.35 (max. 0.65) using the 'Recommended' colour difference formula (though even with Relative Y and CIE76(uv) the average is still only 0.77, max 1.96), extremely tight RGB levels and an average colour temperature of 6493K. Visually it doesn't look anything like as red as what I've been coming up with, nor are the WB settings as extreme as what I was having to use to dial out the red before.

Perhaps it doesn't help that the sensitivity of the WB controls has essentially been reversed from my previous Sony set? Before, changing the RGB Gain by several steps only resulted in slight adjustments whereas the RGB Bias was as subtle as a sledgehammer, now it's the other way around: the Gain removes several percent of colour with every step down, and the Bias needs several notches just to make a slight change. Weird.
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