HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 148 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Display Calibration > HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 08:33 AM 09-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
You are not doing the CMS correctly then, you can always hit the 75% saturation points within 0.5 dE. You need to use the colorspace option rec709 (75%) and appropriate patterns. Unfortunately it's a pain to use the AVSHD sweeps to do this and you'll be better off using the MCD or GCD patterns. You then adjust primaries/secondaries just like you do with the full gamut.

I am using rec709(75%). or I did for that last one.

I was using the slides in the saturations folder, 75% red, 75% green, etc

the one thing i'm trying to remember though, is whether it asked me for a white at the end still with the 75% values. for some reason I don't recall that happening, but if it did, I would have used the 100% white pattern. should I have used 75% gray?

Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 09:30 AM 09-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
the one thing i'm trying to remember though, is whether it asked me for a white at the end still with the 75% values. for some reason I don't recall that happening, but if it did, I would have used the 100% white pattern. should I have used 75% gray?
I think your supposed to use the 75% gray when it asks for white, but I'm far from an expert.
zoyd 09:38 AM 09-29-2014
Yes, 75% white is expected here. You use 100% for the sweeps
rickardl's Avatar rickardl 02:16 PM 09-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Uploaded a minor upgrade version 3.1.6
+ Added selection of % input [BT.1886] offset to use in transfer function target, the remainder is output offset
+ Changed selected color display precision to 3 decimals for cd/m^2 field
+ Temporary fix to allow running a matrix corrected probe sheet alongside a ccss corrected probe (i1Display pro (D3) only)
+ Fixed rollover of APL values at high end of scale
+ Fixed change meter selection not working
+ Changed Relative BT.1886 label to Effective
Downloaded the latest 3.1.6 today but it crashes whenever I try to load a calibration file from 3.1.5.
Running Winodws 7 64-bit.
zoyd 04:58 PM 09-29-2014
Confirmed, thanks for the report. I've pulled 3.1.6 for the moment until I can fix it.
spacediver's Avatar spacediver 05:50 PM 09-29-2014
Zoyd, is it possible to have two instances of HCFR, on the same PC, to take simultaneous readings of two instruments? I can load up two sessions, each of which has a diff instrument loaded, but when I take free measures on one, the other one stops.
zoyd 06:33 PM 09-29-2014
Never tried that, I guess it doesn't work. The driver can probably talk to only one instrument at a time.
spacediver's Avatar spacediver 06:41 PM 09-29-2014
k thanks, may just use laptop to control second instrument
gwgill's Avatar gwgill 11:20 PM 09-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Never tried that, I guess it doesn't work. The driver can probably talk to only one instrument at a time.
The ArgyllCMS instrument driver seems fine with more than one instrument at once (testing with spotread), so I'd suspect a bug in HCFR.
zoyd 09:18 AM 09-30-2014
I've fixed 3.1.6 so you can restore older save files. If you have some recent 3.1.6 saves that you can't restore (unexpected file format message), zip and PM them to me and I'll convert them.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 09:36 AM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Yes, 75% white is expected here. You use 100% for the sweeps
I just tried this, I'm doing something wrong, I must be, because this made things WAY worse. I have delta luminance's of more than +100% right now,


I could not get dE's less than 10 with color set at 50.


I have a feeling the measures I'm doing aren't as independent as they seem to be. what am I do wrong:
-run greyscale sweep
-run primary/secondary sweep(reference set to 709/75%) using 75% patterns in saturation folder, and 75% gray pattern from one of the grayscale folders
-then I'd go in the cms, and adjust settings until each of the primaries/secondaries 'looks good'. and run the saturation sweeps(I never got them to look good this time though)


I think it's time for me to just be happy with the fact I have a calibration with dE's all under 2.5, and looks good with content, and stop worrying about why I needed 'bandaid' fixes
rickardl's Avatar rickardl 09:38 AM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I've fixed 3.1.6 so you can restore older save files. If you have some recent 3.1.6 saves that you can't restore (unexpected file format message), zip and PM them to me and I'll convert them.
Works fine, even with a file from 2012
zoyd 09:58 AM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I just tried this, I'm doing something wrong, I must be, because this made things WAY worse. I have delta luminance's of more than +100% right now,


I could not get dE's less than 10 with color set at 50.


I have a feeling the measures I'm doing aren't as independent as they seem to be. what am I do wrong:
-run greyscale sweep
-run primary/secondary sweep(reference set to 709/75%) using 75% patterns in saturation folder, and 75% gray pattern from one of the grayscale folders
correct so far.

Quote:
-then I'd go in the cms, and adjust settings until each of the primaries/secondaries 'looks good'.
Sounds right, run continuous measures and while you have the primaries/secondaries grid showing tune each color to minimize dE. Then take another primaries/secondaries sweep to confirm all colors are under 1 dE2K

Quote:
and run the saturation sweeps(I never got them to look good this time though)
Here you have to take a primaries/secondaries sweep at 100% in regular Rec709 prior to the saturation sweeps.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 10:18 AM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
correct so far.


Sounds right, run continuous measures and while you have the primaries/secondaries grid showing tune each color to minimize dE. Then take another primaries/secondaries sweep to confirm all colors are under 1 dE2K



Here you have to take a primaries/secondaries sweep at 100% in regular Rec709 prior to the saturation sweeps.


thank you for this.


but this confirms my issue with color at 50 then. with color at 50, it's not possible for me to achieve 'acceptable' dE's. I'm sitting with values of 105% or higher, with settings of 0 for that corresponding color. I can't go lower than 0. I can 'balance' things at 105%, but then my delta luminance is very high, and the dE's are high anyway.


I've attached my most recent 'sweep' of all measures. and my settings are saved in the comments. the results look good to me, so I think I'm going to leave this for awhile, as it's started to frustrate me, and is no longer fun. I will thank you for all your help though!
Attached: fierce_gt_f8500.zip (4.7 KB) 
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 10:19 AM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I just tried this, I'm doing something wrong, I must be, because this made things WAY worse. I have delta luminance's of more than +100% right now,


I could not get dE's less than 10 with color set at 50.
I uploaded a file with my measurements using Color 50 and 75% targets to calibrate, but no one commented on it. The max & avg dE's aren't as good as when I calibrated with increased color and 100% but they're not 10 either. Now I'm out of town so no calibrating for a few days. That's fine as I need a break.
xvfx's Avatar xvfx 10:39 AM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Yes, 75% white is expected here. You use 100% for the sweeps
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I just tried this, I'm doing something wrong, I must be, because this made things WAY worse. I have delta luminance's of more than +100% right now,


I could not get dE's less than 10 with color set at 50.


I have a feeling the measures I'm doing aren't as independent as they seem to be. what am I do wrong:
-run greyscale sweep
-run primary/secondary sweep(reference set to 709/75%) using 75% patterns in saturation folder, and 75% gray pattern from one of the grayscale folders
-then I'd go in the cms, and adjust settings until each of the primaries/secondaries 'looks good'. and run the saturation sweeps(I never got them to look good this time though)


I think it's time for me to just be happy with the fact I have a calibration with dE's all under 2.5, and looks good with content, and stop worrying about why I needed 'bandaid' fixes
I don't get why zoyd was saying 100%. "-run primary/secondary sweep(reference set to 709/75%) using 75% patterns" All aligns properly with 75%sat/75%amp/709/75% primaries for as long as I can remember. I've never had to touch 100% settings or patterns. Unless there's a communication error?
orion2001's Avatar orion2001 10:44 AM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I uploaded a file with my measurements using Color 50 and 75% targets to calibrate, but no one commented on it.
I think it's a lot easier for most to comment and provide feedback when posting images with screenshots. It's a PITA to download a zip file and load it in HCFR to compare and then get back here to post. Moreover, a lot of us end up browsing the forums on computers/devices that don't have HCFR installed on them.
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 11:29 AM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I think it's a lot easier for most to comment and provide feedback when posting images with screenshots. It's a PITA to download a zip file and load it in HCFR to compare and then get back here to post. Moreover, a lot of us end up browsing the forums on computers/devices that don't have HCFR installed on them.
Zoyd asked for the .chc for the scenario I uploaded, hence the upload.
zoyd 11:40 AM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I've attached my most recent 'sweep' of all measures. and my settings are saved in the comments. the results look good to me, so I think I'm going to leave this for awhile, as it's started to frustrate me, and is no longer fun. I will thank you for all your help though!


Thanks, from your save file it looks like you have your HTPC levels set-up incorrectly for the display.

Cell light: 20, Contrast: 90 -> 100% white = 113.45 cd/m^2 Should be higher for these settings.

Brightness: 41 This should be close to 50

I'm guessing you have your video card set to Y'CC out so when feeding it video levels it's going to scale 16-235 into the range 30-218, 30->forces you to lower your brightness to compensate and 218 gives you the low peak white, it should be in the 130-140 cd/m^2 range. Set your card to full-range output so it doesn't do any scaling.

Getting the PC output set correctly may help with the color calibration.
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 11:51 AM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Thanks, from your save file it looks like you have your HTPC levels set-up incorrectly for the display.

Cell light: 20, Contrast: 90 -> 100% white = 113.45 cd/m^2 Should be higher for these settings.
I think he's afraid of the light. Maybe he's a vampire.
zoyd 01:08 PM 09-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post
I've never had to touch 100% settings or patterns. Unless there's a communication error?
The comment was in reference to running the saturation sweeps, not rec709 75% color space.
orion2001's Avatar orion2001 08:34 AM 10-01-2014
This may be a bit of a strange question, but I am trying to use my Colormunki Display to measure Ambient light levels where my wife is growing a number of orchids that are housed under some grow lights. I know that Argyll/HCFR can measure ambient light level when the diffuser is in position on the meter. Given that the spectral distribution of the grow lights is an unknown, would that result in a potentially large uncertainty in reported ambient light levels?
gwgill's Avatar gwgill 08:58 AM 10-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
This may be a bit of a strange question, but I am trying to use my Colormunki Display to measure Ambient light levels where my wife is growing a number of orchids that are housed under some grow lights. I know that Argyll/HCFR can measure ambient light level when the diffuser is in position on the meter. Given that the spectral distribution of the grow lights is an unknown, would that result in a potentially large uncertainty in reported ambient light levels?
Should be moderately accurate in measuring visual light level (Lux). The filters in the i1d3 are certainly good enough, but in my experience the disagreement between absolute calibration of different instruments indicates some variations.
orion2001's Avatar orion2001 09:17 AM 10-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Should be moderately accurate in measuring visual light level (Lux). The filters in the i1d3 are certainly good enough, but in my experience the disagreement between absolute calibration of different instruments indicates some variations.
Thanks Graeme. I'll give it a shot later today.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 09:36 AM 10-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Thanks, from your save file it looks like you have your HTPC levels set-up incorrectly for the display.

Cell light: 20, Contrast: 90 -> 100% white = 113.45 cd/m^2 Should be higher for these settings.

Brightness: 41 This should be close to 50

I'm guessing you have your video card set to YCC out so when feeding it video levels it's going to scale 16-235 into the range 30-218, 30->forces you to lower your brightness to compensate and 218 gives you the low peak white, it should be in the 130-140 cd/m^2 range. Set your card to full-range output so it doesn't do any scaling.

Getting the PC output set correctly may help with the color calibration.
yeah, i'll see what happens if I ever figure out how to run these patterns off a different source.

to be honest though, if I get a brighter image, i'm going the wrong way, haha. I went through great effort to get it DOWN to only 30ftl. for what it's worth, setting contrast to 100, still gets me over 50ftl, which seems in line with what others are getting.

but until I get the slides running off another source, and cross reference that to the pc, i'll never know for sure.
zoyd 09:40 AM 10-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

but until I get the slides running off another source, and cross reference that to the pc, i'll never know for sure.
I would reset everything to default since that calibration will be completely wrong for normal video level inputs.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 09:45 AM 10-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I would reset everything to default since that calibration will be completely wrong for normal video level inputs.
I'll run the hdmi2 input. not fixing what isn't broke, until I know it's broke, haha.

plus, i'd like to see HOW it's off. just for interest.

now. what's the easiest way to run the avs patterns off a ps3? haha
zoyd 10:19 AM 10-01-2014
Set the PS3 for Y'CC output and go.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 11:22 AM 10-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Set the PS3 for YCC output and go.
it wouldn't read my usb sticks last I tried(seriously, who uses FAT32 anymore??, terrible!). I think, it's been awhile. but I know there's a reason I didn't use the ps3 to begin with. cause my original plan was to calibrate the tv using the ps3, then calibrate the HTPC with the video card settings once the tv was calibrated. then repeat with the projector... but I couldn't get the files to play on the ps3, so instead, I used the projector as my 'reference'(nearly every jvc x35 calibration I've seen had brightness, contrast, color, and tint at 0) to set the brightness/contrast settings of the video card, and anyway, we ended up here, so apparently that didn't work out too well. other than stuff looking great when I play it off the HTPC.

the ps3 is already set for YCC, except for games, but i'll double check these settings before starting.

i'm interested to see how it compares.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 07:20 PM 10-01-2014
looks like I'm damned if I do, and I'm damned if I don't...


I reformatted my usb drive, moved the avs files onto it, and played them on the ps3. it solved nothing, probably created more problems...


first, playing them off the usb, does NOT seem to get treated like 'video'. I have set the BD/DVD output to YCC, I am receiving RGB to the tv... I set the HDMI level on the tv to low and normal, but I don't really know how I'm supposed to trust this anymore than the HTPC? whites seem to clip around 232ish, definitely no way to get flashing bars up to 235, let alone above it. even with contrast at 20, it never shows. for what it's worth, I switched back to hdmi level of low, and I needed a brightness of 77 to get 17 to flash... again, no way this would be acceptable for watching cable, so I know this is wrong anyway. normal left me with a brightness setting of 46, definitely closer to what I've seen for cable/htpc/etc.


before I go nuts, I did just a greyscale and primary/secondary sweep. the greyscale tracks ok, up to 90% and then goes nuts for 100%. colors appear about the same as they do when running through the HTPC(but I haven't run the saturations).


I did all of this with the same settings I was using before, color at 62 and everything.


at this point, I see that there's probably an issue with contrast, somewhere. I know that whatever the 'peak white' of the display is, it will be terribly blue. this wasn't an issue watching through the HTPC because that point corresponds with a video level above 110%. on the ps3, it seems to be right at 100%. I don't know what setting may be incorrect on the ps3, but at this point I think running the patterns off the ps3 is LESS accurate than the htpc. so I really don't know what to do at this point. if I can't find an accurate source, there's really no point in even calibrating any differently. at least I know the stuff I watch off the HTPC is good right now, and that's 99% of what I watch critically.


let's just say I love the HCFR program, but it's driving me mad that there's no 'good' source for patterns that don't come with a whole whack load of potential for error.

guess I'm going to waste the rest of my free time on ps3 forums trying to figure out how to watch 'video' without messed up settings. yup, I'm frustrated!


edit, I'm going to 'play' with settings on hdmi2 with the ps3. see what happens
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