HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 151 - AVS Forum
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post #4501 of 5053 Old 10-08-2014, 04:18 PM
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You need a calibration disc with a lot of different patterns when using HCFR (e.g. search for AVS HD 709, GCD Gamut Calibration disc, Mascior's calibration disc, ...)

There is also (I believe, I have never used this, so I may be wrong) a way to use HCFR generated patterns if calibrating through HTPC for example.

I used to use the AVS HD disc, but lately find GCD serves me best most of the times, and I play these through my Blu-Ray player as this is how I mainly watch movies.

These discs also do come with basic patterns that you can use to calibrate Brightness / Contrast, so you do not need to use discs like WOW before you do the proper calibration.

Discs like WOW I think are useful if you don't intend to do a calibration using a meter, and just need to have the basics done.

That said, I haven't used either WOW or Spears & Munsil so I am not sure what they come with, maybe they do have more patterns than just the basics.
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post #4502 of 5053 Old 10-08-2014, 04:44 PM
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Quick question: if I set itu:bt gamma with a different than zero relative value the 'use measured gamma"option is grayed out. Will hcfr take that into account when doing CMS for correct luminance targets? Thank you!

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post #4503 of 5053 Old 10-08-2014, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alextr75 View Post
You need a calibration disc with a lot of different patterns when using HCFR (e.g. search for AVS HD 709, GCD Gamut Calibration disc, Mascior's calibration disc, ...)

There is also (I believe, I have never used this, so I may be wrong) a way to use HCFR generated patterns if calibrating through HTPC for example.

I used to use the AVS HD disc, but lately find GCD serves me best most of the times, and I play these through my Blu-Ray player as this is how I mainly watch movies.

These discs also do come with basic patterns that you can use to calibrate Brightness / Contrast, so you do not need to use discs like WOW before you do the proper calibration such as S&P or even 709,

Discs like WOW I think are useful if you don't intend to do a calibration using a meter, and just need to have the basics done.

That said, I haven't used either WOW or Spears & Munsil so I am not sure what they come with, maybe they do have more patterns than just the basics.
I understand that calibration software is useless without accurate test patterns, but it seems that the very first step in calibration (even with HCFR) is to do what I would call "passive calibration" with a calibration disc.

But perhaps this step is truly unnecessary for the more experienced.
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post #4504 of 5053 Old 10-08-2014, 06:56 PM
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Right, I guess you should take my post with a grain of salt then, as I have not used Disney's WOW or Spears & Munsil to know the extent to which they allow you to calibrate your display.

But lets just say that for me, using HCFR + i1d3 + AVS HD 709, I did not at all need a previous basic calibration done to achieve great results, so my opinion is "No, you do not need it"

And I am far from being experienced, I only have a few weeks of sleepless nights so far
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post #4505 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post
Quick question: if I set itu:bt gamma with a different than zero relative value the 'use measured gamma"option is grayed out. Will hcfr take that into account when doing CMS for correct luminance targets? Thank you!
use measured gamma is ignored when using any bt.1886 curve.
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post #4506 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 04:32 AM
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Then what gamma is used to calculate correct luminance targets for colors if ITU gamma is variable and another relative value can be used??
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post #4507 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
I understand that calibration software is useless without accurate test patterns, but it seems that the very first step in calibration (even with HCFR) is to do what I would call "passive calibration" with a calibration disc.

But perhaps this step is truly unnecessary for the more experienced.
I would say that a calibration disc is essential for making sure you don't see blacker-than-black and and don't clip whiter-than-white. After that, you can start calibrating greyscale and colour with HCFR.
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post #4508 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
I understand that calibration software is useless without accurate test patterns, but it seems that the very first step in calibration (even with HCFR) is to do what I would call "passive calibration" with a calibration disc.

But perhaps this step is truly unnecessary for the more experienced.
As rickardl mentioned, the main pattern you want to consider prior to hardware calibration are the flashing black and flashing white bars. You use the flashing black bars to set your brightness (black level) so that Level 16 and below all clip to the same black value so you don't see any BTB content. For the contrast setting, I typically use a 100% window to first set the contrast while taking continuous measurements with a meter so that I can use contrast to reach my target peak luminance value (~32-35 ftL for dark room viewing). Once I get there, I display the flashing bar pattern to make sure that I'm not clipping WTW content (or at least not all of the WTW content).

You can also use the flashing color pattern to set tint and color using Blue only mode as a first pass, but then you will need to use your CMS settings with meter to dial in the colors properly at a later point in time.
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post #4509 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post
Then what gamma is used to calculate correct luminance targets for colors if ITU gamma is variable and another relative value can be used??

When BT.1886 is selected the target luminance is based on the BT.1886 curve adjusted for the parameters you select. So if for example you select a curve which has an effective gamma of 2.4 and 50% input offset, that is the curve that will be used to calculate the targets.
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post #4510 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
I understand that calibration software is useless without accurate test patterns, but it seems that the very first step in calibration (even with HCFR) is to do what I would call "passive calibration" with a calibration disc.

But perhaps this step is truly unnecessary for the more experienced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
I would say that a calibration disc is essential for making sure you don't see blacker-than-black and and don't clip whiter-than-white. After that, you can start calibrating greyscale and colour with HCFR.
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
As rickardl mentioned, the main pattern you want to consider prior to hardware calibration are the flashing black and flashing white bars. You use the flashing black bars to set your brightness (black level) so that Level 16 and below all clip to the same black value so you don't see any BTB content. For the contrast setting, I typically use a 100% window to first set the contrast while taking continuous measurements with a meter so that I can use contrast to reach my target peak luminance value (~32-35 ftL for dark room viewing). Once I get there, I display the flashing bar pattern to make sure that I'm not clipping WTW content (or at least not all of the WTW content).

You can also use the flashing color pattern to set tint and color using Blue only mode as a first pass, but then you will need to use your CMS settings with meter to dial in the colors properly at a later point in time.
This is all true. What I meant to say is you can also use AVS HD 709, GCD, ... to do these steps.

So, if you already have AVS HD 709 or similar, you do not need to buy Disney's WOW, or Spears & Munsils .. .. and this is what I meant by "No, it is not needed".
If you already have Disney's WOW or Spears & Munsils, you can also use these discs.

But what rickardl and orion mentioned is absolutely true and necessary before you proceed with any Grayscale and CMS calibration.I just consider this an essential part of my whole calibration process.
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post #4511 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
When BT.1886 is selected the target luminance is based on the BT.1886 curve adjusted for the parameters you select. So if for example you select a curve which has an effective gamma of 2.4 and 50% input offset, that is the curve that will be used to calculate the targets.
I still don't get the "need" to monkey around with BT.1886 ... seems .... counter productive .... at best. To me that sounds like "twist the bass and treble controls until your music sounds real good."

IMO, for HDTV/BR video one should just follow the BT1886 definition, or stick to power-law. Especially since there's apparently 'no right answer.'

For the record, I'm not saying you take capability out of the software, I just don't see the application.
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post #4512 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
As rickardl mentioned, the main pattern you want to consider prior to hardware calibration are the flashing black and flashing white bars. You use the flashing black bars to set your brightness (black level) so that Level 16 and below all clip to the same black value so you don't see any BTB content. For the contrast setting, I typically use a 100% window to first set the contrast while taking continuous measurements with a meter so that I can use contrast to reach my target peak luminance value (~32-35 ftL for dark room viewing). Once I get there, I display the flashing bar pattern to make sure that I'm not clipping WTW content (or at least not all of the WTW content).

You can also use the flashing color pattern to set tint and color using Blue only mode as a first pass, but then you will need to use your CMS settings with meter to dial in the colors properly at a later point in time.
Ok, that is what I gathered after watching HTG Episode 176 and reading tons of articles on this site. Thanks for confirming the above.

In other words, totally. ;-)
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post #4513 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 04:48 PM
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For the record, I'm not saying you take capability out of the software, I just don't see the application.
The encoding standards for Video assume a standard viewing display and environment. Back in the real world there then needs to be an accommodation for the actual display and viewing environment, hence black offset handling and gamma adjustment.
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post #4514 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
I still don't get the "need" to monkey around with BT.1886 ... seems .... counter productive .... at best. To me that sounds like "twist the bass and treble controls until your music sounds real good."

IMO, for HDTV/BR video one should just follow the BT1886 definition, or stick to power-law. Especially since there's apparently 'no right answer.'

For the record, I'm not saying you take capability out of the software, I just don't see the application.
It's no different than providing different power law exponents and provides superior black offset handling.
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post #4515 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 07:28 PM
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quick question.

When making your own correction matrix using a spectro as a reference meter on a plasma display should you select refresh display or plasma edr in the drop down for display.
Thanks.
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post #4516 of 5053 Old 10-09-2014, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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post #4517 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
The encoding standards for Video assume a standard viewing display and environment. Back in the real world there then needs to be an accommodation for the actual display and viewing environment, hence black offset handling and gamma adjustment.
Perhaps ... but you're still just "guessing" and "eyeballing" it ... which is the exact opposite of calibration.

Given that, I don't see any advantage to monkeying with BT1886 vs. sticking to plain old power law. All it does is multiply the number of available "wrong" answers. If you can't re-create something close to the so-called "standard environment" then it's a lost cause anyway. In short, IMO, it's just wasted effort.

For the record, I find that my "normal, absolute" BT1886 curve is fine for a wide range of lighting conditions ... OTOH, I don't have my displays installed in a solarium either.
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post #4518 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 01:25 AM
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Perhaps ... but you're still just "guessing" and "eyeballing" it ... which is the exact opposite of calibration.
More scientific approaches are available - see ArgyllCMS viewing conditions choices in collink. But even those tend to be roughly determined discrete choices because it's a secondary effect, and inexact and non-critical as a result.
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Given that, I don't see any advantage to monkeying with BT1886 vs. sticking to plain old power law.
There is no difference - BT.1886 is a power law. BT.1886 makes allowance for one aspect of the display device (black level) in one particular way (input offset), but fails to deal with viewing environment compensation. That's understandable - standards take time to reach consensus, and form out of the experience in dealing with the real world.
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All it does is multiply the number of available "wrong" answers.
Not at all - it's a pretty simple judgement.
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If you can't re-create something close to the so-called "standard environment" then it's a lost cause anyway.
Again - not at all - the point is that viewing environment effects are reasonably well understood (that's what CAM's are about, ie. CIECAM02), so there's no reason not to compensate and improve the result, even if your display and environment are not ideal (not everyone can afford Sony OLED studio displays).
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For the record, I find that my "normal, absolute" BT1886 curve is fine for a wide range of lighting conditions ... OTOH, I don't have my displays installed in a solarium either.
Which is what I'd suspect. If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't be advocating the uselessness of modifying the BT.1886 default :-)
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post #4519 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 01:45 AM
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Some displays vary gamma with pattern types. I would like to know who finds fine ITU gamma on a VT60 Panasonic calibrated with small normal windows? !
If that's the case, rechecked with APL patterns will be something closer to 2.6. So which one is right?
That's why I try to play with different gammas values but taking care of the black level too.
I know, I know it isn't in the "book" .Yes, true, but these displays are behaving differently form previous plasmas when the books were written. .
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post #4520 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 01:52 AM
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Or, let me put it this way: how to implement a standard gamma in plasmas when there's no standard in the implementation and behaviour of ABL??
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post #4521 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Refresh display
You really thought you get off that easy?

Why?
And, when I "match" my i1D1 to my i1D3, plasma or refresh?

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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #4522 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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you can use either but choosing the plasma display mode type first applies a ccss correction in the driver so you end up applying 2 corrections where only 1 is needed.

What's an i1D1?
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post #4523 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 08:35 AM
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What's an i1D1?
The original i1 Display colorimeter; preceded the i1 Display 2.

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post #4524 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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ok - well you should use refresh for the D3 if you are going to apply a matrix correction, otherwise use the plasma display type.
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post #4525 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
More scientific approaches are available - see ArgyllCMS viewing conditions choices in collink. But even those tend to be roughly determined discrete choices because it's a secondary effect, and inexact and non-critical as a result.
Yes ... that's my entire point. If the environment is degraded such that "critical" viewing conditions are unattainable, then spending hours on a 10 or 20pt greyscale calibration for results that are still "inexact" would be a waste of time. "Less" wrong is still wrong.

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Which is what I'd suspect. If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't be advocating the uselessness of modifying the BT.1886 default :-)
It's simple, just pick the right display type for the environment. The rest works out in the end.

For the record, I'm ok with "fudging" the black-level parameter of BT1886 to compensate for brighter environments, I just don't see the need to go beyond that. For some reason, folks seem to be stuck on MLLs and always making the black-level as low as possible even when you can't actually tell the difference between 0.0Nits and 0.15Nits (or even 0.25Nits) due to the sunlight streaming into their rooms.

PS: Sorry for the side track ... back to HCFR stuff.
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post #4526 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
For the record, I'm ok with "fudging" the black-level parameter of BT1886 to compensate for brighter environments, I just don't see the need to go beyond that. For some reason, folks seem to be stuck on MLLs and always making the black-level as low as possible even when you can't actually tell the difference between 0.0Nits and 0.15Nits (or even 0.25Nits) due to the sunlight streaming into their rooms.
Maybe you don't watch movies in dark room conditions, but most people who typically care about black levels actually do. I usually watch movies in pitch black conditions or with a light on in an adjacent room for dim, diffuse lighting in my HT space. Black levels are absolutely noticeable in these situations and make a huge difference. I can easily tell the difference between an all black 0.002ftL v/s 0.005ftL screen in my typical viewing conditions for movies. If I'm watching regular TV with a lot of ambient light, I really don't care for black levels, or a calibrated picture as long as I have enough light output from the TV and colors/fleshtones are accurate.
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post #4527 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 11:29 AM
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"Less" wrong is still wrong.
And less wrong is better than more wrong.
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post #4528 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
ok - well you should use refresh for the D3 if you are going to apply a matrix correction, otherwise use the plasma display type.
My plan is to make a matrix correction file for the D1 using the D3 as reference.
So plasma for the D3 and refresh for the (uncalibrated) D1?
Thanks.

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post #4529 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 11:53 AM
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Hoping to have time to make a few runs this weekend with my new i1 Display Pro and HCFR. I'll be using a Samsung BD-D5700 Blu-Ray player with the AVS-HD DVD. Is there anything within the Blu-Ray player settings that I need to check before making the runs? Also, is there a workflow step-by-step someplace that can assist me through the calibration steps in the proper sequence and what targets to hit etc?

Thanks!
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post #4530 of 5053 Old 10-10-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Maybe you don't watch movies in dark room conditions, but most people who typically care about black levels actually do.
Actually I do watch in a dark room for the projector ... for the LCD flat-panel in the same room, I use suitable bias lighting ... except I don't use the LCD for movies anymore .. or for any "prime-time" viewing. And to be honest, the projector is (currently) lacking a bit in the BL dept ... An issue, I pretty much forget about within 10 minutes into the movie. Monkeying with BT1886 does not help this case ... at all. OTOH, a gray screen or neutral density filter might ... I haven't gotten that far yet.

But this is not the case(s) we were discussing. We were discussing non ideal (aka "bright" room) viewing conditions ... not "dark rooms."
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