HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 157 - AVS Forum
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post #4681 of 4708 Old 10-19-2014, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
The plate. If the serial numbers don't match the results are ambiguous; plus, you should probably get your money back from whomever sold it to you.
Are you talking about the device in general use or just Hi-Res mode? I've been told that numbers must be matched for most accuracy reflective readings but for the fact, I use i1 pro mainly for displays (emissive/transmissive TV) so it's not a problem for me.

But I ain't so sure about Hi-res mode.

Last edited by fallengt; 10-19-2014 at 03:47 AM.
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post #4682 of 4708 Old 10-19-2014, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
Guys, what display type should people be using for MOST LED LCD TVs?

My P502uiB1 is a VA panel, but the 55 is an IPS. I thought LCD RGB IPS was right when I did my calibration but I really didn't see one that was obvious.

There is like zero documentation regarding this too. If you get it wrong, will this throw off all the numbers? I was asked this in the P-Series calibration thread and since I'm not expert, I was hoping you guys could elaborate on the Display parameter.
Nobody in here really knows. Or cares. The simple answer is to use white LED IPS, the more complex answer to this question is that

- probably 80% of the gatekeepers in here dont care at all, because they bought one out of five plasmas

- whenever calibrators show "insanely different" correction matrizes for newer LCDs that were created using spectroradiometers, no one in here cares (although this should be classified as highly unusual behavior and sound all kinds of alarm bells), least of all the calibrator himself, because he has already pocketed the money.

- whenever there is news, that not even high end spectroeadiometers provide correct readings for "high spectral peak devices" like it was the case with a Sony OLED used for production mastering, it gets burried in here quicker than youd care to notice - no one cares.

- and of course, currently all manufacturers are very actively experimenting with new background lighting and screen technologies, because the shift to expand the color spectrum that is very likely to occur with the intruduction of a 4k standard demands for a tidal change in approaches ("high spectral peak devices") - of course, no one in here cares

- lastly, with one quantum dot device in here we experienced that the correction matrix created by a spectro didnt even work as intendet and failed to correct at least the blue spectrum. zoyd (the maintainer of HCFR) wasnt too bothered (dont ask me why), and appart from him, no one in here really cares.

- edit: also no one does exactly know what he or she is doing when correcting colorimeter profiles. The one for white LED LCD is very close to the "standard observer" curve used as the theoretical explanation for the entire color science approach. When it "needs to be corrected" people in here do it, because they trust the more expensive device s more. Thats all. There is no theoretical understanding of what is happening in this process, and how it effects color science theory. Its just done, because "everyone is doing it" and "it seems to look good - at least on one of the five plasmas almost everyone in here has bought".

Im sorry to say that, but the state of this "science" as it is promoted in here is abysmal.

Also, there is the strange fact that there are several mentions to be found where you "first calibrate a screen according to your readings" and after that correct for "wrong looking skin tones" (which measure just perfectly according to CIE 2000 (which is a non scientific standard according to multiple scietists opinions). Or calibration professionals who swear on seeing color tints even on the most perfectly measuring screens, which has lead to the circle-jerk movement of a sitting in by the trusted uber-ones once a year, to determine which of the last years TVs looks best in critical viewing. The method to this madness? An anonymized voting. And of course that doesnt effect the TV reviewing industry at all. Or the reviews - which were done beforehand.

Should I continue?

edit: Ok, I'll give you one more. When measuring a TVs saturation tracking, it was agreed upon to measure 30 point only. Although this is proven to have hidden - HUGE patches of color errors in the past, in fields that could have been noticed, would the number of measured points even just be doubled. The additional time needed for this process, per measurement run? About 30 seconds.

Of course this is futile in praxis, because as mentioned, no one really trusts the CIE 2000 rule of "everything below dE 3 is not visible to the human eye". More so, the fudge factor used by this formula is already proven to be wrong in terms of using one basic vector to give judgement about the perception ranges of all kinds of different color points.

Last edited by harlekin; 10-19-2014 at 04:49 AM.
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post #4683 of 4708 Old 10-19-2014, 04:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
- lastly, with one quantum dot device in here we experienced that the correction matrix created by a spectro didnt even work as intendet and failed to correct at least the blue spectrum. zoyd (the maintainer of HCFR) wasnt too bothered (dont ask me why), and appart from him, no one in here really cares.
You did not quantify any particular problem that might be the result of an HCFR bug, hence the lack of interest. The problems of metameric "instability" among individual observers that you encountered is well known in the color science community when dealing with narrow spectral features. There is current and I imagine much future work on ways in which to deal with it as wider gamuts work there way into commercial devices.
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post #4684 of 4708 Old 10-19-2014, 06:08 AM
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If I use a custom white point should I potentially also be changing the primary colors x,y coordinates? If so, how do I figure out what I need to change them to?
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post #4685 of 4708 Old 10-19-2014, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Depends on what you are trying to do, if you want Rec709 colors then calibration to Rec709 regardless of what white point you use.
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post #4686 of 4708 Old 10-19-2014, 08:21 AM
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Ok thanks Zoyd. I was assuming that the Rec 709 colors are what they are because of what the D65 point is. It sounds like you might be saying that the white point and the primaries are at least somewhat independent of each other. However, if there actually is some sort of relationship between the white point and what the primaries consequently ought to be then can anyone tell me the mathematical formula or method for deriving the proper primaries?
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post #4687 of 4708 Old 10-19-2014, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallengt View Post
But I ain't so sure about Hi-res mode.
The plate/tile is required.
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post #4688 of 4708 Old 10-19-2014, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
The thing to remember here is that the AVS-HD disk was designed for the original (2.xx) version of HCFR, which did not have the "75% of REC709" psuedo-colorspace option ... or a bunch of other things either. This is one of the reasons I've been trying to steer you toward the GCD disk.
Proves the disc is badly outdated and needing updated. Plus I'm puzzled if professionals are using this… As there is no cut/offset patterns to see if your colours are crushed/raised.

Only Mascior's and Ted's discs are the best available.
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post #4689 of 4708 Old 10-19-2014, 10:14 PM
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Proves the disc is badly outdated and needing updated.
Still useful, well vetted ... plus there's plenty of displays that don't need more "robust" solutions.

I know it's hard to believe, but most folks don't "need" 3D-LUT level solutions or the disks designed for them.

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there is no cut/offset patterns to see if your colours are crushed/raised
^^^ Phrase does not compute?
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post #4690 of 4708 Old 10-20-2014, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
The plate/tile is required.
Can you explain it a bit? From my understanding, white ref on the calibration plate is used for reflective measurements and the plate basically is used for dark measurement for emissive ones. So why you need the numbers to be matched (for most accurate reflective measurements) for Hi-res mode at all?
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post #4691 of 4708 Old 10-20-2014, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by fallengt View Post
So why you need the numbers to be matched (for most accurate reflective measurements) for Hi-res mode at all?
Because it's used to better up-sample the internal emission calibration tables, by measuring a known spectral shape - that of the incandescent lamp reflected off the white reference.
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post #4692 of 4708 Old 10-20-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Because it's used to better up-sample the internal emission calibration tables, by measuring a known spectral shape - that of the incandescent lamp reflected off the white reference.
but if fallengt's assumption is correct (that for emissive measurements, the plate is used for a black reading), then presumably there wouldn't be any illumination, and the reflectance of the plate wouldn't matter. I'm guessing the assumption is incorrect.
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post #4693 of 4708 Old 10-20-2014, 02:09 PM
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but if fallengt's assumption is correct (that for emissive measurements, the plate is used for a black reading), then presumably there wouldn't be any illumination, and the reflectance of the plate wouldn't matter. I'm guessing the assumption is incorrect.
And I'm telling you there is illumination, because I make it so!
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post #4694 of 4708 Old 10-20-2014, 03:04 PM
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And I'm telling you there is illumination, because I make it so!
so it's not a dark reading then!
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post #4695 of 4708 Old 10-20-2014, 03:14 PM
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so it's not a dark reading then!
It's a "dark reading" calibration for Hi-Res mode.
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post #4696 of 4708 Old 10-20-2014, 03:34 PM
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And I'm telling you there is illumination, because I make it so!
Graeme, thanks for dropping and explaining the why. ... I was trying to keep the answer simple. It's been awhile since I read the docs over at your site, and I didn't want my flaky memory to cough up bad information.

IIRC, subsequent "dark readings" only require the cap or some other method of covering the sensor? (To include the plate/tile, which I use all the time anyway ... to keep it all simple.)
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post #4697 of 4708 Old 10-20-2014, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
^^^ Phrase does not compute?
Your black level could be set correctly but the colours are crushed. Or vice versa. Same with gains.

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post #4698 of 4708 Old 10-20-2014, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
IIRC, subsequent "dark readings" only require the cap or some other method of covering the sensor? (To include the plate/tile, which I use all the time anyway ... to keep it all simple.)
Summary - a reflective reading is used with the i1Pro when Hi-Res is used on the first calibration. Subsequent calibrations are purely dark calibrations. Note that the i1pro2 will need the plate or ambient cap + cover cap for every calibration, since it needs something to reflect the wavelength calibration LED.
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post #4699 of 4708 Old 10-20-2014, 09:43 PM
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Your black level could be set correctly but the colours are crushed. Or vice versa. Same with gains.
I have a feeling that's more of a greyscale issue. As long as my display is hitting D65, I'm not going to sweat it if red quits at 18 or 233.

Besides, It's pretty easy to tell visually if any colors are clipping on the flashing whitepoint/contrast pattern. But I suppose if you must leave no stone unturned ...
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post #4700 of 4708 Old Yesterday, 07:17 AM
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Because it's used to better up-sample the internal emission calibration tables, by measuring a known spectral shape - that of the incandescent lamp reflected off the white reference.
Thanks.

I did a experiment on my own and obviously it wasn't a ideal setup. Without a better spectro to compare results, it isn't possible to draw out any conclusion anyway.

The experiment was rather than simple, calibrating device with: base plate vs opaque surface (dvd case). You can tell small difference between 10nm and 3nm but interestingly enough, using dvd case to calibrate i1 pro makes little(zero) difference.

File attached below.
Attached Files
File Type: zip HR_10nm.zip (81.6 KB, 2 views)

Last edited by fallengt; Yesterday at 07:25 AM.
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post #4701 of 4708 Old Yesterday, 07:23 AM
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But I suppose if you must leave no stone unturned ...
Guilty, as charged.

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post #4702 of 4708 Old Yesterday, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
You did not quantify any particular problem that might be the result of an HCFR bug, hence the lack of interest. The problems of metameric "instability" among individual observers that you encountered is well known in the color science community when dealing with narrow spectral features. There is current and I imagine much future work on ways in which to deal with it as wider gamuts work there way into commercial devices.
Thank you for the input. As always.
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post #4703 of 4708 Old Yesterday, 10:21 AM
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Hi guys, thanks for this informative thread. I've spent the past few days reading through all of the posts and have downloaded and installed HCFR.

I have always wanted learn about calibration but have never owned a meter. I currently own no calibration discs but back in the early 90's I owned a laser disc of A Video Standard and used that with the blue filter to do my best to set up my CRT. Now that there are so many more advanced and affordable options available to hobbyists I was very excited to try it out. I have very little knowlege about this but just enough to be dangerous. (I once knocked myself unconcious trying to fix a Kloss Novabeam CRT projector)

I borrowed a friends i1 display pro 3 and had some time last night to try a bit of calibrating my JVC RS45 projector. I had printed out and started working through the HCFR guide for dummies that was based on the 2008 version of the software, I made it through about page 30 before running out of time.

I have the projector sourced from my HTPC and all my blurays are stored on my media server and the files are played through the HTPC. I installed HCFR on the same HTPC and ran a long USB cable into the theater room and hooked it to the meter.

I have the projector set to pass 0-255 and I believe I also have the HTPC video card set the same.

I took a few before and after graphs and have a few questions, so apologies in advance for some newbie questions and a lengthy post.

I selected "non refresh device" in the drop down rather than "projector" based on some recommendations earlier in this thread, does that sound correct?

After running the initial setup and finding the best spot for my meter, I found my foot lamberts to be WAY lower than every recommendation of 12-16. I maxed out at less than 8, I think the best I could get to was 7.98 or so. We've been watching movies for years in here though, totally light controlled room, so I don't really know what to think about that. I was disappointed though.

My projector does not have a robust CMS service and I didn't make it that far last night anyway, but it does have custom gamma calibration ability so after checking initial gamma I went into the gamma custom menu and started tweaking. The custom gamma menu has 4 settings, White/Red/Green/Blue and a graph with different IRE points that you can set individually.

Per some recommendations here and in the projector forum, I didn't touch the green settings at all. I only adjusted red and blue. I also never touched white as I wasn't sure what that did, but I will try and get to that tonight to find out.

After about 10 different passes and re-measures, I do think I was able to positively affect the RGB as well as the grey scale calibration, as seen in these before and after graphs:







These changes seem to have negatively effected my overall gamma though. I thought that the stuff I was doing would bring me closer to the 2.2 - 2.4 range but maybe what I was doing only adjusted grey scale and the actual gamma settings are farther into the calibration guide, past page 32. Also the gamma settings may need to be tweaked using that "White" setting in the custom gamma menu on the projector, and I didn't touch that one last night. This is the before and after gamma graph from last night:



As I mentioned before, I do not have any calibration discs so I was using the images built into HCFR. Under advanced/test images there is one for white level and one for black level. I had a question about these two if anybody has experience in using them:

- the white level test image shows a white screen divided horizontally down the middle. Turning the white level up very high clips the signal and that middle line disappears making it one big white page. What is the correct way to use this test image? Should I turn the white level up to clipping and then back it off just enough so the middle line is visible?

- the black level test image has an entire scale of black to grey bars, most that I have seen just have a blacker than black, black and lighter than black bar and you lower black level until all three match, then raise it just enough to see the lighter than black bar. The image built into HCFR doesn't seem to work like that and I didn't know what to do, so I just set my black level using the test image built into the projector menu, which is probably not ideal as it doesn't take into account any source issues from HTPC or video card.

I will spend more time messing with this tonight, if anybody has any feedback for me I'd love to hear it. Maybe I am on the right track or maybe I am really messing up, I don't know.

I do have one last question, earlier in this thread there was mention of dispcalGUI and Argyll CMS but it was kind of an aside with no detail. Are those worth me looking into? I don't know what they are exactly but if they are a way of taking my HCFR data and actually using that to autocalibrate the source image for proper output on my HTPC, that might be the way to go.

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post #4704 of 4708 Old Today, 02:53 AM
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You probably need to have same input range 0-255 or 16-235 selected in all of your components and hcfr.

Last edited by karrih; Today at 02:59 AM.
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post #4705 of 4708 Old Today, 06:26 AM
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I had more time last night to work on the calibration, I spent it trying to figure out gamma and I think I started to get on the right track. I have smoe more tweaking to do but now it is pretty flat across 2.2 and no longer a diagonal slash:


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post #4706 of 4708 Old Today, 10:42 AM
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Very nice. Turn off the individual colors (right click) since they don`t mean anything anyway.

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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #4707 of 4708 Old Today, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Very nice. Turn off the individual colors (right click) since they don`t mean anything anyway.
You don't need them to overlap each other? Or you worry about the overlapping on the RGB graph and not the GAMMA graph?

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post #4708 of 4708 Old Today, 12:42 PM
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Gamma is grayscale, so the individual colors are not important (and in most situations aren't even adjustable).
On the RGB graph, VERY important.

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