HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 163 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-12-2014, 06:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 5,677
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post
I'll try, but i don't think i have the right skills.
Not hard, just tedious. Run saturation sweeps for each color (see carillon's post, 4851, above, or mine, below). Look at the results for 75% (instead of 100%, which is the default). Adjust to lowest dE at 75% and delta luminance close to 0 (which comes up as "=" for some reason).
Yes, I know you can change the default to 75%/75%, but then you have to remember to change it back, which I never seem to do.
Again, WRITE DOWN YOUR SETTINGS NOW. It looks fine, now it's just a matter of how nuts you want to get about it.

Michael


Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Downloadable FREE demo discs: Demonstration Blu-Ray Discs (Independently Authored)
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!

Last edited by LastButNotLeast; 11-12-2014 at 07:16 AM. Reason: added image
LastButNotLeast is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-12-2014, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,586
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 799 Post(s)
Liked: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post
thanks for the tip I think it looks better.
yes, that's great for grayscale and gamma.
zoyd is online now  
Old 11-12-2014, 06:04 PM
Senior Member
 
carillon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 243
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just a quick post to thank the friendly folks in this thread who helped me with my recent calibration. I keep looking at my TV realizing it is night & day better than it was before calibration. Literally the best few hours spent on a home project in a very long time. Appreciate it!
carillon is offline  
Old 11-13-2014, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,586
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 799 Post(s)
Liked: 708
zoyd is online now  
Old 11-13-2014, 05:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
eghill1125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Butler, PA
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
@zoyd

I have a quick question on the BT.1886 and offset. I think I remember you saying before that you shoot for something specific with the setup on your calibrations. This is pertaining to the offset at 100%. I think you said something about dropping that to 50% or 60% sometimes for some reason.

On my set, my blacks measure at .008 or .009 depending on what I set it for.. My wife would never consider changing settings between day and night even when I set them both differently, so if I was looking to set 1 calibration for everything and I knew I would like that setting to be sort of the same depth feel as a power law gamma of 2.28, is this just something I would change on BT.1886 or is there a percentage for offset that would similate a 2.28 Power gamma better.

I guess maybe I am confusing this question. Easy terms as I can get. I like the curve of BT.1886 and would like the lows to come out lighter on the curve and the highs a bit darker than what a 2.4 BT.1886 gives and would be hoping for around an ave. 2.28 on the curve..

Can you help explain a little on how the offset % works and how to use that.

Ed

PSN - eghill1125
eghill1125 is offline  
Old 11-13-2014, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,586
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 799 Post(s)
Liked: 708
100% input offset means that the exact BT.1886 formula is used with your measured black level.

0% input offset (100% output offset) means a pure power law is used and offset to align your measured black level to 0% stimulus. This will target an almost flat log/log curve and is a better option then using Display gamma = x.x

Offset values between 0-100 mix these two conditions so you are essentially playing with the curvature of the function primarily between 0-10% stimulus which affects shadow detail. There really isn't a one size fits all formula because how it will look depends on both the environment (day vs. night) and the source material itself. Also since you only have a control point at 10% the display may or may not follow the target between 0-10%. If I had to recommend something to try based on your comments I would say BT.1886 2.3 effective with 50% input offset.
eghill1125 and WPWoodJr like this.
zoyd is online now  
Old 11-13-2014, 11:06 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
100% input offset means that the exact BT.1886 formula is used with your measured black level.

0% input offset (100% output offset) means a pure power law is used and offset to align your measured black level to 0% stimulus. This will target an almost flat log/log curve and is a better option then using Display gamma = x.x

Offset values between 0-100 mix these two conditions so you are essentially playing with the curvature of the function primarily between 0-10% stimulus which affects shadow detail. There really isn't a one size fits all formula because how it will look depends on both the environment (day vs. night) and the source material itself. Also since you only have a control point at 10% the display may or may not follow the target between 0-10%. If I had to recommend something to try based on your comments I would say BT.1886 2.3 effective with 50% input offset.
zoyd, one thing that confuzzles me is that folks refer to BT.1886 and a gamma of 2.4 as synonymous. But aren't they in fact technically two different things?
pisymbol is offline  
Old 11-13-2014, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,586
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 799 Post(s)
Liked: 708
yes, gamma is the exponent of the transfer function but does not define the equation itself. Most people assume you mean a simple power law function when you say "gamma=x.x" BT.1886 explicitly defines the function to use and it is different from a simple power law in that the function depends on the black and white luminance of the display even though it also uses an exponent of 2.4
zoyd is online now  
Old 11-13-2014, 07:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 5,677
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Yes, I know you can change the default to 75%/75%, but then you have to remember to change it back, which I never seem to do.
A few hours last night have convinced me (using the CCSG patterns as a standard) that changing the reference to HDTV - REC709 (75%/75%) is better than leaving the reference at HDTV - REC709 and just looking at the 75% saturations. Either of which is better than using 100%, which, of course, is what we've been doing until this whole discussion started.

I still can't get my average dE for the CCSG series below 1, but I've gotten it down to 1.11.

Some day soon I may try sleeping, instead, but I must admit this has been interesting.

Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Downloadable FREE demo discs: Demonstration Blu-Ray Discs (Independently Authored)
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
LastButNotLeast is offline  
Old 11-13-2014, 08:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 1225
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
100% input offset means that the exact BT.1886 formula is used with your measured black level.

0% input offset (100% output offset) means a pure power law is used and offset to align your measured black level to 0% stimulus. This will target an almost flat log/log curve and is a better option then using Display gamma = x.x

Offset values between 0-100 mix these two conditions so you are essentially playing with the curvature of the function primarily between 0-10% stimulus which affects shadow detail. There really isn't a one size fits all formula because how it will look depends on both the environment (day vs. night) and the source material itself. Also since you only have a control point at 10% the display may or may not follow the target between 0-10%. If I had to recommend something to try based on your comments I would say BT.1886 2.3 effective with 50% input offset.

I'm new to HCFR and have been doing nightly calibrations to learn. I've got a straight calibration with a gamma of 2.22 for comparison and would like to compare with a BT.1886 calibration. Can you confirm that the attached settings are aligned with what you have suggested? And also, in calibrating to BT.1886, should the TV be set to 2.2 or 2.4?

Thanks
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	HCFR settings.PNG
Views:	105
Size:	17.6 KB
ID:	366057  
fafrd is offline  
Old 11-14-2014, 04:06 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,586
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 799 Post(s)
Liked: 708
zoyd is online now  
Old 11-14-2014, 04:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 138
For those in living room situations, should the colorimeter be on screen or off to take in the regular orangey/yellow lights? As the other LCD I use contact since I watch with lights out and off screen for the Plasma with lights out.
xvfx is online now  
Old 11-14-2014, 05:08 AM
Advanced Member
 
eghill1125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Butler, PA
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
@zoyd ...

Thanks again for the offset answer you gave me above. Worked really well for me as far as I can tell

@fafrd

That is the setup I used for mine after Zoyd gave me his suggestion. You are calibrating the same TV as me. I think it looks really good on this calibration in my house.

I targeted 40 Ft/L and my 100 IRE ended up right there. So far I am seeing really nice shadow detail with that offset of 50% and 2.3 .... And yes, I used 2.2 on the TV to hit these values, not 2.4

Here is mine from last night..

I have only been doing a bunch of these just to learn some more of the ins and outs, but I really like the look of this one here, so I am going to kick back for a few and watch some Blu's now..
Attached Files
File Type: zip 11-14-14 THX Cinema.zip (7.1 KB, 29 views)

Ed

PSN - eghill1125
eghill1125 is offline  
Old 11-14-2014, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,586
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 799 Post(s)
Liked: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post
For those in living room situations, should the colorimeter be on screen or off to take in the regular orangey/yellow lights? As the other LCD I use contact since I watch with lights out and off screen for the Plasma with lights out.
I generally think it's best to calibrate in contact mode (or off screen with room lights off) because the probe will have a different view of screen reflections compared to a viewer sitting much further away. So unless you have a narrow field of view probe that can measure from the viewer's position, any adjustments made might be under or overcorrecting.
xvfx likes this.
zoyd is online now  
Old 11-14-2014, 10:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 1225
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Looks good, probably better to start at 2.2 and adjust from there.

Thanks. I ran it last night with the TV set at 2.4. I think I got it dialed in pretty well (attached).


Would appreciate inputs on whether this looks good enough or there is any obvious improvement I can make - all of the dEs are at 0.3 or less with 2 0.4s...


When I did my first calibration with a straight 2.2 gamma the colors came out pretty much on target but with this BT.1886 2.3 50% gamma, I've got bigger dEs on color (especially at 100% Blue), so that is the next challenge I plan to tackle...


Really appreciate how helpful you are zoyd (as well as everyone else on this thread )
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	gamma 23 50% offset.PNG
Views:	89
Size:	18.3 KB
ID:	366665  
fafrd is offline  
Old 11-14-2014, 10:45 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
yes, gamma is the exponent of the transfer function but does not define the equation itself. Most people assume you mean a simple power law function when you say "gamma=x.x" BT.1886 explicitly defines the function to use and it is different from a simple power law in that the function depends on the black and white luminance of the display even though it also uses an exponent of 2.4
Thanks zoyd for confirming my understanding of this concept. The reason why I asked has to do with fafrd's follow up question about what should the gamma be on the TV if you calibrate using HCFR using BT.1886. I believe the answer is whatever looks best, not strictly 2.4, right?
pisymbol is offline  
Old 11-14-2014, 11:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 1225
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Thanks. I ran it last night with the TV set at 2.4. I think I got it dialed in pretty well (attached).

Would appreciate inputs on whether this looks good enough or there is any obvious improvement I can make - all of the dEs are at 0.3 or less with 2 0.4s...

When I did my first calibration with a straight 2.2 gamma the colors came out pretty much on target but with this BT.1886 2.3 50% gamma, I've got bigger dEs on color (especially at 100% Blue), so that is the next challenge I plan to tackle...

Really appreciate how helpful you are zoyd (as well as everyone else on this thread )

So I just finished my first color calibration using the LG 55LW5600's CMS and while I got the primaries and secondaries pretty dialed in at 100% saturation, the saturation sweep shows there are some significant non-linearities. Green 75% has a dE of 3.2, all the others are below 3. (attached).


Would appreciate any advice on how to correct this (if it is significant enough to justify correction).


Also, I've been reading about calibrating primaries at 75% instead of 100%. Does this mean calibrating at 75% saturation 100% luminance? Are there any instructions anywhere on how to do that?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	100% Luminance Saturation Sweep.PNG
Views:	71
Size:	267.5 KB
ID:	366833  
fafrd is offline  
Old 11-14-2014, 01:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 1225
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
So I just finished my first color calibration using the LG 55LW5600's CMS and while I got the primaries and secondaries pretty dialed in at 100% saturation, the saturation sweep shows there are some significant non-linearities. Green 75% has a dE of 3.2, all the others are below 3. (attached).

Would appreciate any advice on how to correct this (if it is significant enough to justify correction).

Also, I've been reading about calibrating primaries at 75% instead of 100%. Does this mean calibrating at 75% saturation 100% luminance? Are there any instructions anywhere on how to do that?

I've managed to make some small improvements by iterating between CMS and master Tint control so that all dEs including Color Checker are now below 3.0 (attached). Since the largest color errors are all around 75% Saturation levels, I still believe I might improve the results by calibrating the 75% Saturation levels and letting the 100% Primary/Secondary levels fall where they may, but I do not understand how to do that (and would appreciate any guidance).

Here is the summary of dEs:

Greyscale: 80 dE of 0.3 or less
Primaries and Secondaries: Blue dE of 2.9, Cyan dE of 1.5, all others 0.7 or less
Red Saturation: 75% dE of 2.1, all others 1.8 or less
Green Saturation: 75% dE of 2.4, all others 1.2 or less
Blue Saturation: 100% dE of 2.9, 75% dE of 1.9, all others 1.7 or less
Yellow Saturation: 75% dE of 1.8, all others 1.2 or less
Cyan Saturation: 100% dE of 1.5, all others 1.0 or less
Magenta Saturation: 50% dE of 1.2, all others 1.1 or less
Color Checker: Orange Yellow dE of 2.9, Orange dE of 2.4, Blue dE of 2.1, all others 1.8 or less
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	gamma 23 50% offset color check.PNG
Views:	59
Size:	268.7 KB
ID:	367025   Click image for larger version

Name:	gamma 23 50% offset luminance.PNG
Views:	47
Size:	20.9 KB
ID:	367033   Click image for larger version

Name:	gamma 23 50% offset gamma.PNG
Views:	60
Size:	19.4 KB
ID:	367041  

Last edited by fafrd; 11-14-2014 at 02:58 PM.
fafrd is offline  
Old 11-14-2014, 03:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 1225
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I've managed to make some small improvements by iterating between CMS and master Tint control so that all dEs including Color Checker are now below 3.0 (attached). Since the largest color errors are all around 75% Saturation levels, I still believe I might improve the results by calibrating the 75% Saturation levels and letting the 100% Primary/Secondary levels fall where they may, but I do not understand how to do that (and would appreciate any guidance).

From another thread, I think I might have figured out the answer to my own question - I have been using the 'HDTV - Rec 709' Color Space Standard for my calibrations, but I now see that there is also a 'HDTV - Rec 709 (75%/75%)' option as well.


Is using this 75%/75% Standard and the 75% Saturation 75% Amplitude Primary / Secondary Sweep off of GCD the way to calibrate to 75% Saturation levels rather than 100% Saturation levels? And if done this way, does that then mean that 25%, 50%, and 75% Saturation levels are likely to be more accurate and 100% Saturation levels end up wherever they end up? Is that the technique recommended to calibrate the Vizio P60/P70?
fafrd is offline  
Old 11-14-2014, 08:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 1225
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
From another thread, I think I might have figured out the answer to my own question - I have been using the 'HDTV - Rec 709' Color Space Standard for my calibrations, but I now see that there is also a 'HDTV - Rec 709 (75%/75%)' option as well.

Is using this 75%/75% Standard and the 75% Saturation 75% Amplitude Primary / Secondary Sweep off of GCD the way to calibrate to 75% Saturation levels rather than 100% Saturation levels? And if done this way, does that then mean that 25%, 50%, and 75% Saturation levels are likely to be more accurate and 100% Saturation levels end up wherever they end up? Is that the technique recommended to calibrate the Vizio P60/P70?

So I tried calibrating to HDTV - Rec 709 (75%/75%) and I think the results are improved (attached). The only think I am confused about is that I could not use the CMS color controls at all (they had no effect) - only adjustments I could make were through master 'Color' and 'Tint' - is that normal?

All dEs below 2.8 - here is a recap:

Greyscale: all dEs at 0.3 or less
Primaries and Secondaries: Blue dE of 2.2, Red dE of 2.1, all others 1.9 or less
Red Saturation Sweep: 75% dE of 2.7, all others 2.2 or less
Green Saturation Sweep: 25% dE of 1.1, all others 1.0 or less (big improvement )
Blue Saturation Sweep:100% dE of 2.2, all others 1.6 or less (big improvement )
Yellow Saturation Sweep:75% dE of 1.8, all others 1.6 or less
Cyan Saturation Sweep:100% dE of 1.2, all others 0.6 or less
Magenta Saturation Sweep:100% dE of 2.0, all others 1.4 or less
Color Checker: Magenta dE 1.9, all others 1.8 or less (big improvement)

Would appreciate feedback as to whether CMS controls are supposed to be ineffective when using HDTV - 709 (75%/75%) as well as whether there is anything further that can be done to improve this calibration.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	BR1886 23 50% offset 75% 75% greyscale.PNG
Views:	70
Size:	46.2 KB
ID:	367641   Click image for larger version

Name:	BR1886 23 50% offset 75% 75% luminance.PNG
Views:	44
Size:	20.7 KB
ID:	367649   Click image for larger version

Name:	BR1886 23 50% offset 75% 75% gamma.PNG
Views:	58
Size:	19.9 KB
ID:	367657   Click image for larger version

Name:	BR1886 23 50% offset 75% 75% saturation sweep.PNG
Views:	69
Size:	267.1 KB
ID:	367665   Click image for larger version

Name:	BR1886 23 50% offset 75% 75% color checker.PNG
Views:	56
Size:	262.5 KB
ID:	367673  

fafrd is offline  
Old 11-15-2014, 07:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
eghill1125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Butler, PA
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I have struggled with that for the life of the TV..

I ended up settling on color of 52 on my calibrations of the LG55LW5600.

Blue has been immobile since I started this a long time ago. I can move green fairly easy, and somewhat red, but Blue goes nowhere ever no matter what pattern I feed it.

Picture still looks good in the end even if the CMS doesn't really work well. I end up usually leaving it defaulted at zero after i try for hours moving the numbers and not getting any better.

Ed

PSN - eghill1125
eghill1125 is offline  
Old 11-16-2014, 03:59 AM
Member
 
anoutsos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Following on fafrd's questions, I am also trying to understand what I am seeing on the RGB/Saturations diagrams (see attached images). I have tried to get the Y,x,y values as close to the recommended as possible (I think the numbers deviate no more than 2% from the standards). In the end, I think I got my Gamma pretty close to the BT.1886 and the luminance looks spot on. However, from the RGB diagram it looks like my Blue is a bit low – although I set it to be very close to 8% of white. In addition, the CIE diagram looks strange: the colours don't quite follow the dashed lines nor the squares. I have tried the IREs for B-Gain (White Balance) but that did not shift the RGB curve for Blue.
I'd like to know which settings I need to tweak. To get the recommended x,y values, I have used the Saturation controls of the primaries and secondaries. Any other tweaks?

TV: Panasonic TX-P65VT30
Colorimeter: Spyder4
Software: HCFR 3.1.6 (source: AVSHD709)

Thanks.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	MyCalibration.jpg
Views:	97
Size:	209.5 KB
ID:	369586  
anoutsos is offline  
Old 11-17-2014, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,586
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 799 Post(s)
Liked: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
So I tried calibrating to HDTV - Rec 709 (75%/75%) and I think the results are improved (attached). The only think I am confused about is that I could not use the CMS color controls at all (they had no effect) - only adjustments I could make were through master 'Color' and 'Tint' - is that normal?
The CMS controls should do something, i.e. raising the red for the green control should move it towards red. It's often the case that at 75%/75% you can't get the points saturated enough especially if you are targeting a high gamma. In any case your charts all look find so there doesn't look to be anything further to improve, why is your black reading so high though?

@anoutsos

You should be able to get better grayscale response with your white balance controls. Then try and straighten green and magenta out with the CMS hue control. After than you might try a 75%/75% calibration.
zoyd is online now  
Old 11-17-2014, 04:42 AM
Member
 
anoutsos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks zoyd, I will follow your advice. I have just read up about the 75%/75% calibration, if that's needed.

By the way, will tampering with the white balance and the CMS hue alter my luminosity/Gamma curves? I spent quite some time yesterday getting them to (what I consider) a good match to the 1886 reference and I would hate to have to redo everything all over again.

Also, why is it that getting the following to look almost perfect:
1. Gamma & Luminosity curves (using 0-100% grey windows),
2. Luminosity/Hue/Saturation for RGB/CMY (using 100% colour windows) – for this I used the Y,x,y values recommended for HDTV-Rec 709,
does not lead to a better looking RGB balance and saturations on the CIE diagram?

Thanks.
anoutsos is offline  
Old 11-17-2014, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,586
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 799 Post(s)
Liked: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by anoutsos View Post
Thanks zoyd, I will follow your advice. I have just read up about the 75%/75% calibration, if that's needed.

By the way, will tampering with the white balance and the CMS hue alter my luminosity/Gamma curves? I spent quite some time yesterday getting them to (what I consider) a good match to the 1886 reference and I would hate to have to redo everything all over again.
CMS won't affect gamma but white balance controls might depending on what you change. It looks like all you need to do is tweak the blue gain and bias and that won't move the gamma response.

Quote:
Also, why is it that getting the following to look almost perfect:
1. Gamma & Luminosity curves (using 0-100% grey windows),
2. Luminosity/Hue/Saturation for RGB/CMY (using 100% colour windows) – for this I used the Y,x,y values recommended for HDTV-Rec 709,
does not lead to a better looking RGB balance and saturations on the CIE diagram?

Thanks.
For RGB balance you need to use the white balance controls as these affect the neutral axis only. Get that correct before moving on to the CMS, that will help your secondary hue values as well. The CMS controls are used for hue, saturation, and color luminance (not RGB balance).
zoyd is online now  
Old 11-17-2014, 11:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I generally think it's best to calibrate in contact mode (or off screen with room lights off) because the probe will have a different view of screen reflections compared to a viewer sitting much further away. So unless you have a narrow field of view probe that can measure from the viewer's position, any adjustments made might be under or overcorrecting.
I see. I've always had it in contact for LCD. Turns out 2.2 Power Law had the best Gamma for the room conditions. Mid tones and coming out of black was just a bit too dark for BT.1886. Even though it was 2.2 to 2.3 curve.

Shadow detail is nice and rich but clear with lovely mid tones for 2.2 Power Law. Which allowed the backlight one click lower. By default this set has a relative BT.1886 curve.

It's nice now to experience 3 different sets with different gamma to judge.

Though, the worst set trying to rectify the gamma was Samsung LE46M87BD. It's only 2 point. It has a really fudged up gamma/black level. If 16 is set to disappear, the gamma curve is high to low along the graph with heavily crushed blacks. Even upping the gamma + setting gave a little more detail but not enough.

Black had to be set to 14/15 to bring out the healthy shadow detail and now it's a relative flat line with black compensation. Yet there's no foggy details. I thought this was bizarre but it worked.
xvfx is online now  
Old 11-18-2014, 03:24 AM
Member
 
MSL_DK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post
I will always return to HCFR, it's a great program. Thank you! The only problem is, there is no good guide to HCFR. I have for example. had great difficulty in adjusting gamma in 10-pt the same goes for luminance ... but I think by now I've figured it out. I have tried with a Samsung UE46H7005. Is there room for improvement?

Samsung.chc
Recalibration. Display mode madVR, BT.1886 / REC 709

With my limited knowledge, I have come from that I do not achieve anything by calibrating to 75% / 75%. Do you agree? Is there room for improvement?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	gray.PNG
Views:	54
Size:	22.7 KB
ID:	372266   Click image for larger version

Name:	gray1.PNG
Views:	48
Size:	3.9 KB
ID:	372274   Click image for larger version

Name:	colors.PNG
Views:	51
Size:	15.3 KB
ID:	372282   Click image for larger version

Name:	luminance.PNG
Views:	50
Size:	45.9 KB
ID:	372290   Click image for larger version

Name:	rgb.PNG
Views:	49
Size:	43.3 KB
ID:	372298  

Click image for larger version

Name:	gamma.PNG
Views:	56
Size:	39.8 KB
ID:	372306   Click image for larger version

Name:	color-temp.PNG
Views:	47
Size:	40.8 KB
ID:	372314   Click image for larger version

Name:	CIE.PNG
Views:	67
Size:	430.9 KB
ID:	372322   Click image for larger version

Name:	saturation-luminance.PNG
Views:	42
Size:	46.1 KB
ID:	372330   Click image for larger version

Name:	saturation-shifts.PNG
Views:	50
Size:	48.8 KB
ID:	372338  

Attached Files
File Type: zip done.zip (6.9 KB, 11 views)

Samsung UE46H7005/7000 - Dynaudio Focus 200 XD
MSL_DK is online now  
Old 11-18-2014, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 5,586
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 799 Post(s)
Liked: 708
Your color checker stats are average=1.13, max=2.90, and worst 10%=2.16. That's excellent performance, I don't know what they were when you did the previous calibration but this one is a keeper.
zoyd is online now  
Old 11-18-2014, 07:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 5,677
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 439
Looks good to me, too. Don't forget that, calibrating at 75%, the primary and secondary colors chart is meaningless, since that's at 100%.
How does it look with real-world material?
Samsung PN60F5300 calibration settings?

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Downloadable FREE demo discs: Demonstration Blu-Ray Discs (Independently Authored)
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
LastButNotLeast is offline  
Old 11-18-2014, 10:15 AM
Senior Member
 
22point8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, UK
Posts: 245
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Ps43f4900

I don't know how but PC mode (Native Colourspace) has lower maximum dE2000 than calibrated Movie (Custom colourspace) in the USER (551 measures) colorchecker, I was inspired to remeasure the saturation tracking at 10% intervals by a post above. PC Mode only has the Colour Temp changed to Warm 2 and a very minor change to white balance.

I used 8% windows with 25% APL. PC mode gamma was 2.22, Movie was 2.28 (because I calibrated it for BT1886 using AVS709HD Small APL windows, thats why 20IRE is the worst dE in greyscale, because I calibrated it with the Small APL patterns).

Both using 'use measured gamma'.

i1 Display Pro profiled to i1 Pro REV D, Laptop HDMI/16-235/YUV (for Movie)(RGB for PC)/24p (for Movie)(60p for PC)


MOVIE (CUSTOM)
skin(24) 0.78/1.41
gcd(24) 0.72/1.60
axis(24) 1.02/1.94
ccsg(96) 1.08/2.56
user(551) 0.76/3.05
Spoiler!


PC NATIVE
gcd24 1.17/2.11
skin24 1.29/2.93
axis24 1.18/2.37
ccsg96 1.28/2.72
user551 1.15/2.80
Spoiler!
Attached Files
File Type: zip F4900.zip (34.6 KB, 4 views)

Last edited by 22point8; 11-18-2014 at 10:23 AM.
22point8 is online now  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off