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Display Calibration

xvfx's Avatar xvfx
11:45 AM Liked: 89
post #5041 of 5064
12-19-2014 | Posts: 753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
PS: In Sony's case, it probably doesn't help that they appear to have a severe allergy to including any type of user adjustable color-management-systems (CMS) on their products.
Why is that?
LastButNotLeast's Avatar LastButNotLeast
12:49 PM Liked: 302
post #5042 of 5064
12-19-2014 | Posts: 4,930
Joined: Feb 2007
They're afraid of hackers.

CharlieS.'s Avatar CharlieS.
02:55 AM Liked: 1
post #5043 of 5064
12-20-2014 | Posts: 9
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Where can is see what luminance i need for the color calibration with REC 709 75%/75%?
I just see what luminance i have but not what i need.
umenon's Avatar umenon
11:52 AM Liked: 31
post #5044 of 5064
12-21-2014 | Posts: 1,330
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I am new to the world of calibrating with a hardware.

A couple of weeks ago, I bought a Datacolor S4TV100 Spyder4TV HD and was able to install a custom Spyder4 driver so that HFCR could detect and use it. I did not use any correction file. Should I ?

My new Samsung 4K TV has a 2-pt and 10-pt white balance.

Here is what I did ... I put the TV in Movie/Warm2 mode (with all other gimmicks turned off).

I put the the HFCR software in manual (free-run) mode and first did the 2-pt WB on a 50% grayscale chart and was able to tweak the BlueGain to +7% to get it all even. I then switched to the 10% grayscale charts (from 10%-100%) and tweaked it all using the Red Gain or Blue Gain (did not touch Green). Is that the right way to do it?

I do have a couple of issues. When I try to run the grayscale balance in automatic mode ... the software seems to hurry through all the 10 steps of grayscale. e.g. it does not wait long enough to accurately read the values for the 10% grayscale. I know this because the readings are different when I do the same in manual mode. Is there a way to make the software wait a little longer to take the readings (especially at the lower grayscale levels)?

Also, how does one adjust gamma. I know that when I run the complete 0-100 measurement ... it will show me the Gamma graph. But thats a graph - how do I tweak Gamma? By the way, my Samsung has a single Gamma slider which is applied to the whole range. So how to tweak it across the range?

Also, as I mentioned above, I tweaked the Red Gain or Blue Gain for white balance. I did not touch the Red Offset or Blue Offset. What are they used for? Do they come into play for tweaking Gamma?
AMartin56's Avatar AMartin56
07:14 AM Liked: 69
post #5045 of 5064
12-22-2014 | Posts: 1,223
Joined: Aug 2005
Is it possible to directly compare two meter profiles in HCFR?


The reason I ask is I've had two Colormunki Photo spectros in my possession. I profiled my iD3 off of each of them.



With the original spectro profiling the meter I made the following changes to my previous calibration:-1 red in gain and offset. +1 blue gain.


With the second spectro profile adjusting the calibration I made the following additional changes: +2 Red gain and offset. +1 blue gain.


So effective change between both spectros profiling the same meter was +1 red offset/gain and +2 blue gain.


I would just be curious to see how they arrived at this. The variance doesn't bother me that much since these are entry level meters.
HDTVChallenged's Avatar HDTVChallenged
08:34 AM Liked: 154
post #5046 of 5064
12-22-2014 | Posts: 8,653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
So effective change between both spectros profiling the same meter was +1 redoffset/gain and +2 blue gain.
I would just be curious to see how they arrived at this. The variance doesn't bother me that much since these are entry level meters.
Wouldn't that be +1 for red off/gain and 0 for blue gain? If so, that's probably within "expected" variations for any given display.

Edit: arrgh ... now you got me doing it: +3 red off/gain and 0 for blue. .... arrrrgh again .... now I see what you did. ... Nevermind
AMartin56's Avatar AMartin56
08:40 AM Liked: 69
post #5047 of 5064
12-22-2014 | Posts: 1,223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
Wouldn't that be +1 for red off/gain and 0 for blue gain? If so, that's probably within "expected" variations for any given display.

Edit: arrgh ... now you got me doing it: +3 red off/gain and 0 for blue. .... arrrrgh again .... now I see what you did. ... Nevermind

umenon's Avatar umenon
09:59 AM Liked: 31
post #5048 of 5064
12-22-2014 | Posts: 1,330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umenon View Post
I am new to the world of calibrating with a hardware.

A couple of weeks ago, I bought a Datacolor S4TV100 Spyder4TV HD and was able to install a custom Spyder4 driver so that HFCR could detect and use it. I did not use any correction file. Should I ?

My new Samsung 4K TV has a 2-pt and 10-pt white balance.

Here is what I did ... I put the TV in Movie/Warm2 mode (with all other gimmicks turned off).

I put the the HFCR software in manual (free-run) mode and first did the 2-pt WB on a 50% grayscale chart and was able to tweak the BlueGain to +7% to get it all even. I then switched to the 10% grayscale charts (from 10%-100%) and tweaked it all using the Red Gain or Blue Gain (did not touch Green). Is that the right way to do it?

I do have a couple of issues. When I try to run the grayscale balance in automatic mode ... the software seems to hurry through all the 10 steps of grayscale. e.g. it does not wait long enough to accurately read the values for the 10% grayscale. I know this because the readings are different when I do the same in manual mode. Is there a way to make the software wait a little longer to take the readings (especially at the lower grayscale levels)?

Also, how does one adjust gamma. I know that when I run the complete 0-100 measurement ... it will show me the Gamma graph. But thats a graph - how do I tweak Gamma? By the way, my Samsung has a single Gamma slider which is applied to the whole range. So how to tweak it across the range?

Also, as I mentioned above, I tweaked the Red Gain or Blue Gain for white balance. I did not touch the Red Offset or Blue Offset. What are they used for? Do they come into play for tweaking Gamma?
Can someone help?
AMartin56's Avatar AMartin56
03:26 PM Liked: 69
post #5049 of 5064
12-22-2014 | Posts: 1,223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umenon View Post
Can someone help?

You should really try to read this. I think it will help.


http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457


And while you lost me with some of your original post I will answer what I can.


You won't have a correction file unless you profile the meter with a spectro (which it sounds like you don't own). Just make sure the proper display type is selected in HCFR.


I doubt your TV supports automated calibration. So you will probably have to run through the test patterns yourself manually.


The gain controls change the upper end of the grayscale. The offset controls change the lower end. The definition of upper and lower end can vary from display to display. If you have ten point controls you would adjust gain by looking at a 100% white pattern. You would adjust offset by looking at a 30% white pattern. Do gain first....then offset as gain is more likely to affect the low end of the grayscale. Go back and forth a bit to find a compromise that gets both as close as possible. Meaning one control can technically affect the area that should be covered by the other. Until you gain more experience don't touch two point again after you have set it with the method above. And leave green alone (once again until you get more experience).


To fine tune gamma in the ten point controls on a Samsung you do 'gang adjustments'. Meaning to raise the brightness of that point without affecting white balance you add to RED/GREEN/BLUE equally. To lower brightness at a point you subtract equally. This is the exception to the 'don't touch green' rule above. For reasons I won't go into there I would suggest starting at one end of the grayscale and working your way down (or up). If you start at interval ten you should make as few adjustments as possible (since you should have dialed it in pretty well with two point). Do it once and then don't touch interval ten again.
xvfx's Avatar xvfx
06:18 AM Liked: 89
post #5050 of 5064
12-23-2014 | Posts: 753
Joined: Feb 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
You won't have a correction file unless you profile the meter with a spectro (which it sounds like you don't own). Just make sure the proper display type is selected in HCFR.
It's a shame there is none for Samsung VA panels. Only IPS is listed. I had to go with NonRefresh entry as the screen wasn't that warm with the Samsung entry. I'll have to invest in a Spectro soon.
Basstrix's Avatar Basstrix
09:38 AM Liked: 11
post #5051 of 5064
12-23-2014 | Posts: 45
Joined: Dec 2012
I've recently resurrected my calibration tools to dial in a couple of new sets. I see that HCFR has a lot of new features that weren't present when I last calibrated. I've also realized some functionality that may or may not have been available, previously. I have searched and have been unable to get all of my questions answered, although I'm sure they've been addressed in this 5000+ post thread I apologize in advance if these topics have already been covered.


My questions are:


1. Trying to use HCFR patterns for continuous measures. I cannot get the pattern to only show on the TV. Where can I find info, in addition to what's in help, on this?
2. I'm not clear on how to change colors during continuous measure once I do get the pattern to only show on the TV. I've read to "double click" the grid for the color you want or to use the "view colors". View Colors doesn't seem like a feasible means of changing anything but W, R, G, or B.
Is there a guide or FAQ that covers this topic thoroughly?


3. I see there is a 75/75 Rec709 colorspace. I've used Stereomandan's 75% sats method successfully and would like to know how to use the pattern material built into HCFR for this method. I thought SMD's method used 75sat/100color, but I'm not sure. Is there a guide that covers how to perform a 75% sat cal using 75/75 Rec709?


4. The help files built into HCFR do not show any images. I only see a box with an x where an image should be. Any suggestions on how to get the images to show?


Thanks in advance,
BT
CharlieS.'s Avatar CharlieS.
09:41 AM Liked: 1
post #5052 of 5064
12-23-2014 | Posts: 9
Joined: Dec 2014
1. Use this: AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration
Basstrix's Avatar Basstrix
06:09 PM Liked: 11
post #5053 of 5064
12-23-2014 | Posts: 45
Joined: Dec 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieS. View Post
Thanks Charlie, that's what I'm currently using, but I'm trying to simplify/speed things up by using the pattern material built into HCFR.
CharlieS.'s Avatar CharlieS.
06:11 AM Liked: 1
post #5054 of 5064
12-24-2014 | Posts: 9
Joined: Dec 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basstrix View Post
Thanks Charlie, that's what I'm currently using, but I'm trying to simplify/speed things up by using the pattern material built into HCFR.
But that does not work.
Basstrix's Avatar Basstrix
07:35 AM Liked: 11
post #5055 of 5064
12-24-2014 | Posts: 45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basstrix View Post
4. The help files built into HCFR do not show any images. I only see a box with an x where an image should be. Any suggestions on how to get the images to show?

As of this morning, the images are now showing in HCFR help.
rakstr's Avatar rakstr
07:49 AM Liked: 35
post #5056 of 5064
12-24-2014 | Posts: 718
Joined: Sep 2003
I'm struggling getting off the ground as well. My Display Pro arrived yesterday! I'll admit I haven't yet sat down for intensive review but I was hoping I'd find a "calibration for dummies" youtube for the basics. Always helps me to have someone show me the most simple of tasks to acquaint me and then the written information makes more sense and helps me learn faster.....

So if you know of a video that walks you through the basics, I'd appreciate a link too!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS


Quote:
Originally Posted by Basstrix View Post
As of this morning, the images are now showing in HCFR help.

Basstrix's Avatar Basstrix
09:12 AM Liked: 11
post #5057 of 5064
12-24-2014 | Posts: 45
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rakstr,


The AVSHD-709 disk has a video with basics of calibrating, but it is very basic. I'm not aware of a youtube for this, but CurtPalme's has a good guide. The original is HCFR specific: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457
nebrunner's Avatar nebrunner
02:06 PM Liked: 28
post #5058 of 5064
12-24-2014 | Posts: 1,142
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I purchased an i1 display pro and installed the profiler sotfware that came with it. Ran through a round of that and maybe I'm missing something but nowhere did I see any options for me to make recommended changes to color and nothing at all about contrast and brightness.

I have HCFR and under advanced, tools, there is the built in test pattern choices. Under the second half there is a test pattern for brightness and one for contrast. Each appears to have some moving black and white bars but I cannot find any instructions on how to use it, from the built in help as well as online. I would imagine it must be necessary to turn up brightness and contrast until certain bars are just visible, then back it off until they blend in with whiter than white and blacker than black, however to do this properly it would require some specific details.

If anybody can point me to the instructions on these patterns I would greatly appreciate it! I used to use A Video Standard to calibrate these back in the day, but no longer have access to a laser dics player. All I have right now for source is a pc, and I think I have some tweaking to do between 0-255 and 15-235 to eliminate black and white crush.
AMartin56's Avatar AMartin56
02:10 PM Liked: 69
post #5059 of 5064
12-24-2014 | Posts: 1,223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nebrunner View Post
I purchased an i1 display pro and installed the profiler sotfware that came with it. Ran through a round of that and maybe I'm missing something but nowhere did I see any options for me to make recommended changes to color and nothing at all about contrast and brightness.

I have HCFR and under advanced, tools, there is the built in test pattern choices. Under the second half there is a test pattern for brightness and one for contrast. Each appears to have some moving black and white bars but I cannot find any instructions on how to use it, from the built in help as well as online. I would imagine it must be necessary to turn up brightness and contrast until certain bars are just visible, then back it off until they blend in with whiter than white and blacker than black, however to do this properly it would require some specific details.

If anybody can point me to the instructions on these patterns I would greatly appreciate it! I used to use A Video Standard to calibrate these back in the day, but no longer have access to a laser dics player. All I have right now for source is a pc, and I think I have some tweaking to do between 0-255 and 15-235 to eliminate black and white crush.
Looks up one post from yours...


Basstrix's Avatar Basstrix
02:33 PM Liked: 11
post #5060 of 5064
12-24-2014 | Posts: 45
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After reading a lot of posts on this thread and some experimentation, I have answered most of what I was asking in post 5051. I've figured out how to use the patterns included with HCFR and am able to run continuous measures and display patterns on the extended desktop.


From what I can tell, here's how it works:


1. Connect your computer to TV
2. Power up computer and TV
3. Set your computer to use Extended Desktop for the 2nd display
4. Fire up HCFR (this is the important step...don't fire up HCFR prior to this step or the s/w doesn't recognize the 2nd display properly)
5. Go to Measures/Generator/Select: pick View Images
6. Go to Measures/Generator/Configure:
choose Target Screen: I picked the lower choice...both show up as Generic PnP Monitor.
I left Image Area, APL, and Intensity at defaults. Not sure what APL and Intensity do.
set Display Mode to GDI
set Gray Scale to 0-255


I have intentionally left out the subject of determining if your computer is outputting video correctly...still working through those details and I'm sure it varies from computer to computer.


It's still not clear to me how color selection works on the Continuous Measures. It seems that in order to use the Color/Data grid to choose a display color, two requirements must be fulfilled.
A. There must be data in the cells below a given color location. I.E. If you wish to select the red primary, there must be data present for a red primary.
B. The data for a given color must be accurate to within a dE of ~ 4 or less (from what I can tell).


Display colors can also be chosen using the View/Test Colors and then select colors or by clicking on the CIE chart. The Test Colors seems like an accurate but archaic way to choose a color if it's other than a primary.


Will someone please explain to me the most efficient way to display accurate colors using HCFR? I'm interested in using HCFR to display/measure 75% saturations for Pri/Sec along with grayscale, 100% colors, and color checker patterns.


Thanks,
BT
nebrunner's Avatar nebrunner
06:08 PM Liked: 28
post #5061 of 5064
12-24-2014 | Posts: 1,142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Looks up one post from yours...

Thanks AMartin, those are the patterns that I have been using but I'm looking for the details on the contrast and brightness patterns built into HCFR as they are distinctly different and have moving bar patterns. The AVS709 are definitely nice as they have hard coded instructions.
Basstrix's Avatar Basstrix
12:10 PM Liked: 11
post #5062 of 5064
Yesterday | Posts: 45
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Can anyone tell me how to display 100% Stimulus/75% Saturation patterns using HCFR that doesn't involve manually entering values into the "Test Colors" palette? I can't get the GCD patterns to match up exactly with HCFR's patterns.

Thanks,
BT
thepiecesfit's Avatar thepiecesfit
03:45 PM Liked: 10
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I'm getting some discrepancies between V2 and V3 of HCFR. Can anyone shine some light on this? I was getting Green and Cyan shifts in V2 that I was wondering about. Seems like V3 the primary and secondary colors align much better. I'm a bit puzzled by which one I can trust? Using an i1Display 2 without much drift it seems as my results are consistent. Both were set to rec 709 .

Any ideas? Using a TC-P50ST50 Panasonic. The only difference is the lack of a Plasma setting and I left the Color difference formula to recommended. The calibration settings are exactly the same. Added RGB Levels and CIE diagrams below.
Attached: CIE-HCFR2.png (262.4 KB)  CIE-HCFR3.png (423.2 KB)  RGB-LEVELS-V2.jpg (80.6 KB)  RGB-LEVELS-V3.jpg (78.7 KB) 
nulsul's Avatar nulsul
02:13 PM Liked: 10
post #5064 of 5064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22point8 View Post
I think I know what you mean, sometimes if I measure greyscale at 11 points I get one set of results, then if I measure 21 points I get a slightly different results that are 'better' its as if the deltaEs are 'relative' to the steps next to them. Even then its not that much difference in the numbers.

Anyway, I decided to measure greyscale at 51 points and saturation at 21 points...









only dE2000 over 3 is magenta 5% saturation, which is under 3 with dE94

I can't figure out... how did you do this extended color checker? Thanks...

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