HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 175 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5221 of 5903 Old 01-13-2015, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
Historically, most folks have targeted gamma at 2.2(ish) for flat panels (including plasmas.) Due to the "superior" black level performance of plasmas, the BT1886 EOTF is often closer to a "gamma" of 2.3 to 2.4 (on average,) which makes the display look "darker" than one may be accustomed ... plus the editing and color grading was almost certainly performed on a display set to gamma 2.2(ish) ... and free from ABL issues. So, these issues often combine to make BT1886 on plasma look darker and "crushier" than desired.
Plus the superior black levels get crushed if there is any light at all in the room, which is why I'm considering calibrating at a relatively high level around 0.04 or so.

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post #5222 of 5903 Old 01-13-2015, 02:44 PM
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Hey guys. First time calibrating. Samsung f8500 60", i1 display pro only 2 weeks old, hcfr. bt.1886, 0 effective, 100% input offset, ref gamma 2.22. Started with contrast and brightness controls then did a 10 point greyscale and prim and secondary color calibration. Any input as to how my results look would be appreciated. Happy with PQ but want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
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post #5223 of 5903 Old 01-13-2015, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
HCFR is rounding to integer levels between reference black (16) and reference white (235) for 5%, 10%, etc stimulus values.

For example 5% is really 5.02% in HCFR.
@zoyd , should HCFR be doing a two-step rounding for % White instead of one-step? First map 0-100% to PC RGB space (0-255), then map that to 16-235? From attached see difference at 35%, 65%, 70%, and 90%.

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post #5224 of 5903 Old 01-13-2015, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clenathan View Post
Hey guys. First time calibrating. Samsung f8500 60", i1 display pro only 2 weeks old, hcfr. bt.1886, 0 effective, 100% input offset, ref gamma 2.22. Started with contrast and brightness controls then did a 10 point greyscale and prim and secondary color calibration. Any input as to how my results look would be appreciated. Happy with PQ but want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Looks good so far! Might want to tweak 70% and 80% gamma. Also check your avg/max dE on the primaries and secondaries to be sure luminance isn't too high.

Head on over to the calibration thread.

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post #5225 of 5903 Old 01-13-2015, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
should HCFR be doing a two-step rounding for % White instead of one-step?

No, the quantization is based on the assumption that the disk patterns use video level encoding.
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post #5226 of 5903 Old 01-13-2015, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
No, the quantization is based on the assumption that the disk patterns use video level encoding.
Right, but when View Images is used as the generator, and Display Images Parameters is set to Gray Scale (GDI) 0-255 (instead of 16-235), there would seem to be two quantizations happening...

  1. Image is displayed by HCFR using quantized integer values from 0-255
  2. Values from 0-255 are quantized to 16-235 either by the graphics card or the TV depending on configuration

Am I missing something?

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post #5227 of 5903 Old 01-14-2015, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
Right, but when View Images is used as the generator, and Display Images Parameters is set to Gray Scale (GDI) 0-255 (instead of 16-235), there would seem to be two quantizations happening...

  1. Image is displayed by HCFR using quantized integer values from 0-255
  2. Values from 0-255 are quantized to 16-235 either by the graphics card or the TV depending on configuration

Am I missing something?
That would be an "incorrect" configuration. Specifically, in this case, the graphics card (or TV) should be set for 0-255. (This is one of the reasons I have no interest in HTPCs. Too much can "go wrong." )
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post #5228 of 5903 Old 01-14-2015, 03:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post

Am I missing something?
Nope, I didn't realize you were referring to the internal pattern generator set to 0-255. In that case you are correct although the practical implications are negligible [see this post]. If you still want to avoid this situation then stick to video level output or use madTPG which will dither full range to the correct video level percentage.
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post #5229 of 5903 Old 01-14-2015, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Nope, I didn't realize you were referring to the internal pattern generator set to 0-255. In that case you are correct although the practical implications are negligible [see this post]. If you still want to avoid this situation then stick to video level output or use madTPG which will dither full range to the correct video level percentage.
Thanks. You don't think that the resulting HCFR target luminance gamma error is significant when the internal pattern generator is set to 0-255?

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post #5230 of 5903 Old 01-14-2015, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
Thanks. You don't think that the resulting HCFR target luminance gamma error is significant when the internal pattern generator is set to 0-255?
no, the perceptual errors induced (assuming you can even control and have the stability to maintain sub 0.5-1 cd/m^2 luminance for those 4 levels) are on the order of 0.2 dE or less and negligible.

Last edited by zoyd; 01-14-2015 at 01:48 PM.
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post #5231 of 5903 Old 01-15-2015, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
no, the perceptual errors induced (assuming you can even control and have the stability to maintain sub 0.5-1 cd/m^2 luminance for those 4 levels) are on the order of 0.2 dE or less and negligible.
How hard is this to "fix" in HCFR? I guess I agree that it's not a big issue, however it still seems like something worth getting right...

I can't figure out how to turn dE2000 on for gray scale measurements in HCFR. Is that possible, or not recommended, or...

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post #5232 of 5903 Old 01-16-2015, 08:10 AM
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Feedback on cal

Hi All,
I have made two passes now adjusting grayscale on my Samsung UN60H6350 and hoping to get some feedback/advice. The second run I did (posted here) where I intended to start from ground floor up, used my first 10 point settings (I forgot to reset those) so I'm planning a third run with everything reset.

Anyway, I think I got pretty good results (to my untrained eye) but have a couple of questions regarding the Gamma graph and measures:
1) On both runs, I see that I am below target on Gamma between 20-80 IRE. Assuming the goal is to match this to the target, do I adjust RGB equally up or down to hit target curve?

2) On both runs, I am nowhere close to hitting the target gamma slope from 10-20 IRE that BT.1886 wants. I have had to lower my blue at 10 IRE down to close to the lower limit in my set's settings to get decent RBG levels at that point, so trying to lower all three to hit the curve may be problematic.

These may be simple questions but I'm still learning and couldn't find a post answering this.
I've attached my measurement file if needed for additional review.







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post #5233 of 5903 Old 01-16-2015, 08:25 AM
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@zoyd I am currently using the i1 pro to profile my i1d3. I am trying to calibrate the new P series vizio tv. the P702ui-B3 to be exact. I have a couple question that maybe you or someone else can help me with. I read through the thread trying to figure out the process that was used to modify the .ini file to allow the i1pro to work with HCFR build version 3.1.6 on windows 8.1. Can you help me figure out what is needed? Also I while back I started the official calibration forum for the P series. One of the questions asked by me and others is which tv type should I select. We have currently been using RGB LED. Im thinking now (after seeing it was told to another user) it might be best to Use white LED IPS . The panel type used in my set is a sharp VA type so not IPS but the two seem closest to the correct type. I just want to make sure I am doing everything correct in order to achieve the best/most accurate picture possible
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post #5234 of 5903 Old 01-16-2015, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post
Hi All,

1) On both runs, I see that I am below target on Gamma between 20-80 IRE. Assuming the goal is to match this to the target, do I adjust RGB equally up or down to hit target curve?
Increase RGB to lower gamma and vice-versa.

Quote:
2) On both runs, I am nowhere close to hitting the target gamma slope from 10-20 IRE that BT.1886 wants. I have had to lower my blue at 10 IRE down to close to the lower limit in my set's settings to get decent RBG levels at that point, so trying to lower all three to hit the curve may be problematic.
see above and you can play with the 2 point RGB controls to get more head room.


Quote:
Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
@zoyd I am currently using the i1 pro to profile my i1d3. I am trying to calibrate the new P series vizio tv. the P702ui-B3 to be exact. I have a couple question that maybe you or someone else can help me with. I read through the thread trying to figure out the process that was used to modify the .ini file to allow the i1pro to work with HCFR build version 3.1.6 on windows 8.1. Can you help me figure out what is needed?
I'm not aware of any ini file editing needed, remove any xrite drivers and replace with driver found in HCFR "drivers" directory.

Quote:
Also I while back I started the official calibration forum for the P series. One of the questions asked by me and others is which tv type should I select. We have currently been using RGB LED. Im thinking now (after seeing it was told to another user) it might be best to Use white LED IPS . The panel type used in my set is a sharp VA type so not IPS but the two seem closest to the correct type. I just want to make sure I am doing everything correct in order to achieve the best/most accurate picture possible
Perhaps with your i1pro you can provide some feedback on which display type is a better match.
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post #5235 of 5903 Old 01-16-2015, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I'm not aware of any ini file editing needed, remove any xrite drivers and replace with driver found in HCFR "drivers" directory.



Perhaps with your i1pro you can provide some feedback on which display type is a better match.
Thank you for your help I got it working perfectly now. Thus may be a dumb question and I will be happy to report back my findings but how exactly do I tell which display type is a better match?
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post #5236 of 5903 Old 01-16-2015, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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1. Profile the D3 to the i1pro using generic display type "non-refresh" and measure the grayscale using that matrix.
2. Remeasure the grayscale using display type "RGB LED" [or others] and without the matrix correction.
3. Find the display type that best matches measurements from step 1.
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post #5237 of 5903 Old 01-16-2015, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
1. Profile the D3 to the i1pro using generic display type "non-refresh" and measure the grayscale using that matrix.
2. Remeasure the grayscale using display type "RGB LED" [or others] and without the matrix correction.
3. Find the display type that best matches measurements from step 1.
Ok I will do that as soon as I can and report back with what I find out. I do just want to clear a few things up for myself. Basically the tv type is to auto applie a correction matrix to the colorimeter correct? So naturally the type that fits the gamma curve the best is the one for people who are not using a method of profiling. With that said for those of us using a method of profiling the tv type should always be non refresh. Is that correct?
Also when you are performing the profiling the be used you should always do this on non refresh no matter what? Sorry for the questions just want to make sure I do this correctly before I inform anyone else of the correct method.

Last edited by superkyle; 01-16-2015 at 10:23 AM.
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post #5238 of 5903 Old 01-16-2015, 03:55 PM
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Trying to find someone in my area

Help with calibration


Anyone?
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post #5239 of 5903 Old 01-17-2015, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
Ok I will do that as soon as I can and report back with what I find out. I do just want to clear a few things up for myself. Basically the tv type is to auto applie a correction matrix to the colorimeter correct?
Display type forms a correction matrix based on a color correction sample set (ccss) combined with the probe's internal error offset data.

Quote:
So naturally the type that fits the gamma curve the best is the one for people who are not using a method of profiling.
yes, it would be useful for people with your display that do not own a spectrometer. Is there a display type that is clearly a better fit (according to the i1pro). But you should see which gives the lowest dE errors for the grayscale (not gamma) by using the i1pro based matrix dataset as reference and looking at the dE/ref line in grid display.

Quote:
With that said for those of us using a method of profiling the tv type should always be non refresh. Is that correct?
You don't have to but that's easier to remember and creates a more portable matrix. non-refresh/refresh are equivalent to CalMAN's rawXYZ.
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post #5240 of 5903 Old 01-17-2015, 07:34 AM
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I am so damn grateful for HCFR and thanks to Zoyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Looks good to me, too. Don't forget that, calibrating at 75%, the primary and secondary colors chart is meaningless, since that's at 100%.
How does it look with real-world material?
Samsung PN60F5300 calibration settings?
This calibration was performed at 100%

I have not had time to 75/75 before now. Here is the result. Happy, or?
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post #5241 of 5903 Old 01-17-2015, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPWoodJr View Post
Thanks. You don't think that the resulting HCFR target luminance gamma error is significant when the internal pattern generator is set to 0-255?

I think my analysis here was flawed and HCFR is fine:

  1. HCFR calculates target BT.1886 luminance values based off a quantization from percentage luminance (0, 5, 10% etc) to video (16-235).
  2. Then HCFR quantizes video 16-235 back to PC RGB 0-255 when displaying the patches
  3. Then either the graphics card or the TV quantize that back to video 16-235.

Fortuitously step 3 results in the same values between 16-235 as step 1, assuming rounding is used in the quantization.

Anyway a new version of Nvidia drivers is out which will let me send 0-255 over HDMI so to avoid all this I'm going to follow Zoyd's advice and use that setting along with the 16-235 setting in HCFR .

Sorry for the FUD!

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post #5242 of 5903 Old 01-17-2015, 08:22 PM
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my work

Ok, decided to do my 3rd calibration. This time, aiming for that 35 or so ftl for a night mode. Because its night, I also did a bt. 1886 @ 2.4 effective 50% offsent. Uploaded my work. few questions below. TV is a 60f8500

1- anyone have any suggestions based on screenshots?

2- How can I get closer to a 0% lumanance on the cms?

3- Where do I find patterns to measure the flesh tone? I know zoyd mentioned he turned his up to 3

Tomorrow I will be doing 2 more calibarations for movie and cal day. I want to do one at standard bt. 1886 and also one with effective of 2.2 at 50% offset. I have NO IDEA what gamma I will like or should use so I will just do these three.
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post #5243 of 5903 Old 01-18-2015, 08:59 AM
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The numbers look great (though you might want to try a calibration at 75%/75% ).
How does it look?
Samsung PN60F5300 calibration settings?

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #5244 of 5903 Old 01-18-2015, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
The numbers look great (though you might want to try a calibration at 75%/75% ).
How does it look?
Samsung PN60F5300 calibration settings?
I did 75/75 and had red as my max at about 1.6, the rest below 1. Then did my 100% with red at 3.8 and rest at or below 2. Still need some tweaks.

Looks good but I need to play around with other gamma curves as I really don't have a preference.

How do I lower the luminance percent for colors?
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post #5245 of 5903 Old 01-18-2015, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post

3- Where do I find patterns to measure the flesh tone? I know zoyd mentioned he turned his up to 3
skin tones are available from the internal pattern generator under CCSG, which includes both skin tones and other memory colors, and the SKIN selection (24 pantone skin colors). Or you can use Ted's disk with the CCSG selection.
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post #5246 of 5903 Old 01-18-2015, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post

I have not had time to 75/75 before now. Here is the result. Happy, or?
Looks real good, I don't see any problems. Best way to compare two different calibrations is run the CCSG and look at the statistics - average, max, worst 10%.
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post #5247 of 5903 Old 01-18-2015, 01:35 PM
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Really frustrating... Had a good calibration going and just fine tuning greys and TV menu froze. Had to turn off and on TV now when I run my measures, I'm wayyyy off. If it is calibrated correct, then each time I open hcfr my numbers should be similar, right?
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post #5248 of 5903 Old 01-18-2015, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post
3- Where do I find patterns to measure the flesh tone? I know zoyd mentioned he turned his up to 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
skin tones are available from the internal pattern generator under CCSG, which includes both skin tones and other memory colors, and the SKIN selection (24 pantone skin colors). Or you can use Ted's disk with the CCSG selection.
Hi, if you want to use Ted's blu-ray calibration disk (or media files) with HCFR, you can use the CalMAN's ColorChecker SG Chapter that has 96 patches to measure, 19 of them are Skintones patches.

You need to use HCFR 3.1.1 or later release where Zoyd added CalMAN's ColorChecker SG measurements support; that made my disk the only available calibration disk with that feature, you can confirm that by checking the HCFR's Release Notes here.

If you want to see which other measurements are supported, look here: Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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post #5249 of 5903 Old 01-19-2015, 03:39 AM
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I've tried searching through the thread and reading as much of it as I can, but I'm still struggling with some details...

1. REC.709-75% is set in preferences. That means that HCFR automatically displays color patterns @ 75A/75S? How is Pattern Intensity in Generator properties related to this? Should I leave it at 100 or change it to 75 when using REC.709-75%?

2. When I enter my gamma measured luminance in GCD_targets_v13.xlsx, the calculated xy for RGB is different than what HCFR calculates in CIE chart. E.g. HCFR shows 0.568/0.330 for Red@75%, but the spreadsheet shows 0.547/0.330 for 75/75. Which is correct?

3. How to manually display e.g. Red@75/75 pattern in HCFR?

Thank you!
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post #5250 of 5903 Old 01-19-2015, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post
Really frustrating... Had a good calibration going and just fine tuning greys and TV menu froze. Had to turn off and on TV now when I run my measures, I'm wayyyy off. If it is calibrated correct, then each time I open hcfr my numbers should be similar, right?
assuming the TV settings didn't change then yes, measurements will be similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Touche View Post
I've tried searching through the thread and reading as much of it as I can, but I'm still struggling with some details...

1. REC.709-75% is set in preferences. That means that HCFR automatically displays color patterns @ 75A/75S? How is Pattern Intensity in Generator properties related to this? Should I leave it at 100 or change it to 75 when using REC.709-75%?
Leave at 100, the intensity setting is used to change luminance for 100% saturation patterns.

Quote:
2. When I enter my gamma measured luminance in GCD_targets_v13.xlsx, the calculated xy for RGB is different than what HCFR calculates in CIE chart. E.g. HCFR shows 0.568/0.330 for Red@75%, but the spreadsheet shows 0.547/0.330 for 75/75. Which is correct?
HCFR

Quote:
3. How to manually display e.g. Red@75/75 pattern in HCFR?
RGBCYM at 75/75 can be displayed if you select that color space, run a sweep, select the color from the grid column, and then hit the snapshot or continuous measure arrow.
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