HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 187 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5581 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 03:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a good general guide on display calibration for learning the basics. Generally the color/tint control will not be used if your display has a separate set of controls for color calibration. Brightness should be set using a test disk so that level 16 is black and level 17 is just barely visible above black when looking up close and in a darkened room. The easiest way to get suggestions is to post a save file and tell us the particular issue you are having (one issue at a time).
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post #5582 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 05:08 AM
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Hi! I am playing with X-rite i1 Display Pro and HCFR on my Samsung 50h6400 tv and my reference JVC DT-V24G1 monitor.
What should I set as “display type”? Should I select “non-refresh” for h6400 and maybe “lcd ccfl wide gamut” for my JVC or? Results are quite different so Im bit puzzled with that option.

PS Sorry if my English is bit rough, its not my native language
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post #5583 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
changing Effective from 0 to 2.15 gets me close, but flattens the curve;
This actually looks very good. I'll try this for a while, unless anyone has any other suggestions.

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post #5584 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Shifting the whole curve up/down is not possible unless you put in a fake black measurement. In other words with a constant black point luminance lowering the effective BT.1886 value will flatten the curve out. So if you really want more curvature (lower gamma at 10% relative to 50%) you'd have to enter a higher black measurement.
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post #5585 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 09:13 AM
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Not just enter it, but achieve it, so the measurements would be accurate, which means I'm eyeballing it again.
I'm happy with what I have (for now ); do I really want to know what I did by changing Effective?

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post #5586 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Here is a good general guide on display calibration for learning the basics. Generally the color/tint control will not be used if your display has a separate set of controls for color calibration. Brightness should be set using a test disk so that level 16 is black and level 17 is just barely visible above black when looking up close and in a darkened room. The easiest way to get suggestions is to post a save file and tell us the particular issue you are having (one issue at a time).
Thanks for your response!

I posted CIE diagram (its on the previous page). I watched a movie last night. It was way too red (faces looked sun burned).

I did read through that guide very thoroughly prior to calibration. I also followed the curtplane guide verbatim. I had trouble setting contrast and brightness with my eye. Most if not all the white stipes were not visible no matter what I did to the contrast. I reverted to using the meter due to this. I set the contrast to ftL 35. It seemed to yield a very nice picture.

Since my "over red" picture I have turned CMS Saturation Red to 0 (from +14) for the meantime and it has kind of fixed the red in the face problem. I will go for another run at it this afternoon.

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post #5587 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
Thanks for your response!

I posted CIE diagram (its on the previous page). I watched a movie last night. It was way too red (faces looked sun burned).

I did read through that guide very thoroughly prior to calibration. I also followed the curtplane guide verbatim. I had trouble setting contrast and brightness with my eye. Most if not all the white stipes were not visible no matter what I did to the contrast. I reverted to using the meter due to this. I set the contrast to ftL 35. It seemed to yield a very nice picture.

Since my "over red" picture I have turned CMS Saturation Red to 0 (from +14) for the meantime and it has kind of fixed the red in the face problem. I will go for another run at it this afternoon.
I suggest that you run saturation sweeps and color checker patterns along with their respective targets and post up your CIE again.


I've found it confusing to set contrast using luminance because I don't know where to set the backlight (which also affects luminance). Since many sets will show whiter than whites (wtw) regardless of contrast level, I've read (and observed) that adjusting contrast excessively in one direction or another will bring about a pinkish or greenish hue to the flashing bars when contrast is excessive in one direction or the other. I suggest observing the hue change and find a happy medium. Brightness has always been pretty straightforward to set on any of the displays I've adjusted, so I don't have any advise other than what has already been said....a dark room and getting close to TV and a little off angle does the trick for me.
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post #5588 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Basstrix View Post
I suggest that you run saturation sweeps and color checker patterns along with their respective targets and post up your CIE again
Ok. Can you point me in the right direction (guide) where I can find out how to do this?

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post #5589 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 01:01 PM
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Are you using a disk or HCFR for pattern generation material? If you're using a disk, it will have to contain the saturation and color check patterns.

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post #5590 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basstrix View Post
Are you using a disk or HCFR for pattern generation material? If you're using a disk, it will have to contain the saturation and color check patterns.
I'm using AVS HD 709. Is the pattern generation material you refer to the flashing color bars?

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post #5591 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoskon View Post
Hi! I am playing with X-rite i1 Display Pro and HCFR on my Samsung 50h6400 tv and my reference JVC DT-V24G1 monitor.
What should I set as “display type”? Should I select “non-refresh” for h6400 and maybe “lcd ccfl wide gamut” for my JVC or? Results are quite different so Im bit puzzled with that option.

PS Sorry if my English is bit rough, its not my native language
You should pick the one closest to what your display technology (backlight for LED/LCD) is so I think the h6400 display would use LCD White LED IPS (WLED AC LG Samsung), I don't know what the JVC uses.
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post #5592 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
You should pick the one closest to what your display technology (backlight for LED/LCD) is so I think the h6400 display would use LCD White LED IPS (WLED AC LG Samsung), I don't know what the JVC uses.
h6400 does not have IPS panel, does that matter?
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post #5593 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
I'm using AVS HD 709. Is the pattern generation material you refer to the flashing color bars?


The AVSHD709 disk (pattern material) has saturation sweeps in 25% increments. To use them, que them up on your disk just as you did for grayscale and primary/secondary colors, then, in HCFR, go to Measures/Saturations/* From there you can select to measure all colors or just a color at a time.


I don't think the 709 disk has color check patterns but the GCD disk does. I believe there is a link to the GCD disk on the first post of this thread.


I wish I had learned how to use HCFR's internal generator from the beginning...would have saved me a lot of time.
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post #5594 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoskon View Post
h6400 does not have IPS panel, does that matter?
No, getting the correct backlight is what's important.
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post #5595 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 03:19 PM
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Thank you Zoyd!
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post #5596 of 6295 Old 03-09-2015, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basstrix View Post
The AVSHD709 disk (pattern material) has saturation sweeps in 25% increments. To use them, que them up on your disk just as you did for grayscale and primary/secondary colors, then, in HCFR, go to Measures/Saturations/* From there you can select to measure all colors or just a color at a time.


I don't think the 709 disk has color check patterns but the GCD disk does. I believe there is a link to the GCD disk on the first post of this thread.


I wish I had learned how to use HCFR's internal generator from the beginning...would have saved me a lot of time.
Ok thank you I will have time tomorrow to run through this. I'll post once complete... thanks again!

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post #5597 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 02:17 AM
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Hi Guys,


I have done another calibration on my VT60 with the results shown below with the latest version of HCFR 3.1.9b. I have the X-rite Display Pro.
I understand the process to get greyscale, primary and secondary colors set, brightness and contrast, but what I still don't get is how to set each color luminance using HCFR. Also not sure that using Display Gamma (power law) 2.2 is correct for this TV?


Any comments/thoughts welcome.
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post #5598 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 06:34 AM
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I don't see anything to complain about there (but I would have gotten more info from your charts).
You can display the graphs for the individual colors (and other options) by right-clicking on the graph and selecting from the pop-up box.
The gamma you choose is YOUR preference, it's not up to the set. And the set doesn't care.
I prefer BT.1886 because it is better under my lighting conditions. Your situation may be different.
You probably can't adjust each color's luminance on your set (though I am not intimately familiar with the VT60). What many of us have done is calibrate to 75%/75%, since those colors appear more regularly in actually material than 100%/100%. The tedious way is to do saturation sweeps of each color and adjust the set to get the lowest average dE for each color. Trust me, just try it at 75%/75%.
Even at that, you probably won't notice much of a difference. Keep in mind, though many of us fight for that last 0.1 (guilty as charged), a difference in dE < 1.0 is not observable; it can be argued that, once you get dE below 3.0, you can stop.
I'm not stopping.
Have fun.
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post #5599 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 01:58 PM
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Hey guys can I get some eyes on this:

delta E for colors pretty high: Red 2.7, Green 7.0, Blue 5.2, Yellow 6.8, Cyan 7.4, Mag 6.7

I tried everything recommended. I'm not quite sure what "saturation sweeps" are but what I did was played the 75% color test patterns and calibrated them to the x/y coordinates (Rec 709). Is there another way of doing this?

I'm I even in the right ball park? Images seem very good. I plugged in others settings (who have my same display) and their gray scale was no where near mine. Is this TV just that far out of whack?

I'm using movie mode, backlight is 0 (standard), contrast and brightness I left at default because it worked and measured appropriately (ftL 30). All other settings turned off (active contrast, film mode, etc.), I didn't use CMS value. I only used Hue and Saturation. I did -1 on Gamma. Standard color gamut range as well.



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post #5600 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 02:53 PM
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jhughy2010, "Sweep" is jargon I've picked up from reading about display calibration. It just means to measure a sequence of standardized images. You've already done grayscale and primary/secondary sweeps. The AVSHD709 disk has saturation pattern images for 0, 25, 50, 75, and 100% saturation. I don't have the disk with me, but from the MP4 version they are located in the folder MP4-2c\ColorHCFR Windows\Saturation. Measure them as I described in the response I posted yesterday.


As for doing a 75% saturation cal, this link is a good reference to learn one way to do so: Epson Calibration Guide! (1080, 1080UB, 6100, 6500UB, 7500UB)


This method requires use of the spreadsheet stereomandan has linked in the thread to calculate your x, y, and Y targtes. I've used it many times, and it works well. You can also use the Rec709 75%/75% color space and HCFR will calculate the targets for you. You can set this color space under Advanced\Preferences and look on the References tab for "Standard" and select HDTV-Rec709 (75%/75%). Only use the 75% space for making adjustments...return the S/W back to the HDTV-Rec709 before you run another set of sweeps.


Your RGB balance looks pretty good. You should be able to dial that 100% point's dE down to 3 or below and then it will be very good. My recommendation is to get 100% balanced and then work the rest of the gamma curve around that. Sharp's CMS for the 100% white point only move in one direction whereas they move +/- for the remaining points (which is why I recommend starting with the 100% point).

To dial in your colors, you should be using hue, saturation, and value. Value is the same as luminance. First dial in hue then saturation then value. They all affect one another, so you'll probably have to go back and adjust hue once you're done getting the luminance set...and so on. .....it's an iterative process.


Now, with all of that being said, Sharp's Aquos technology has an issue with saturation tracking (cyan appears to be the worst offender) and I can tell you from experience that using a 75% calibration will yield far better looking images than with 100%. I'm still trying to overcome the particularly bad tracking my Sharp has and will be posting up questions on this board soon.


Hopefully others will chime in and give their inputs as well.
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Vizio M652i-B2....................HCFR 3.3.1
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post #5601 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
Hey guys can I get some eyes on this:
delta E for colors pretty high: Red 2.7, Green 7.0, Blue 5.2, Yellow 6.8, Cyan 7.4, Mag 6.7
How are the delta luminance values? You probably need to adjust value as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basstrix View Post
Hopefully others will chime in and give their inputs as well.
I don't own a Sharp, but it seems like checking "Use HSV Level Bars" under preferences would be useful (e.g. for color continuous measures).
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post #5602 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basstrix View Post
jhughy2010, "Sweep" is jargon I've picked up from reading about display calibration. It just means to measure a sequence of standardized images. You've already done grayscale and primary/secondary sweeps. The AVSHD709 disk has saturation pattern images for 0, 25, 50, 75, and 100% saturation. I don't have the disk with me, but from the MP4 version they are located in the folder MP4-2c\ColorHCFR Windows\Saturation. Measure them as I described in the response I posted yesterday.


As for doing a 75% saturation cal, this link is a good reference to learn one way to do so: Epson Calibration Guide! (1080, 1080UB, 6100, 6500UB, 7500UB)


This method requires use of the spreadsheet stereomandan has linked in the thread to calculate your x, y, and Y targtes. I've used it many times, and it works well. You can also use the Rec709 75%/75% color space and HCFR will calculate the targets for you. You can set this color space under Advanced\Preferences and look on the References tab for "Standard" and select HDTV-Rec709 (75%/75%). Only use the 75% space for making adjustments...return the S/W back to the HDTV-Rec709 before you run another set of sweeps.


Your RGB balance looks pretty good. You should be able to dial that 100% point's dE down to 3 or below and then it will be very good. My recommendation is to get 100% balanced and then work the rest of the gamma curve around that. Sharp's CMS for the 100% white point only move in one direction whereas they move +/- for the remaining points (which is why I recommend starting with the 100% point).

To dial in your colors, you should be using hue, saturation, and value. Value is the same as luminance. First dial in hue then saturation then value. They all affect one another, so you'll probably have to go back and adjust hue once you're done getting the luminance set...and so on. .....it's an iterative process.


Now, with all of that being said, Sharp's Aquos technology has an issue with saturation tracking (cyan appears to be the worst offender) and I can tell you from experience that using a 75% calibration will yield far better looking images than with 100%. I'm still trying to overcome the particularly bad tracking my Sharp has and will be posting up questions on this board soon.


Hopefully others will chime in and give their inputs as well.

Thank you very much... incredibly informative!

Ok I played around with saturation patterns using the AVSHD709 MP4 version. I also got familiar with it in HCFR. So I just need to measure them and then post the results? Or am I adjusted CMS with each saturation test pattern? I read the guide (briefly) on how to do the 75% saturation calibration. I'll have to read through it again... you said that I can have HCFR do the calculations for me and omit the excel spreadsheet? Or do I need to familiarize myself with the spreadsheet?

It looks like you are recommending starting the gray scale calibration over? The guide has me starting with 80% then doing 20%. What you are suggesting is starting with 100% and then moving down (to say 30%)?

I'm really starting to understand this stuff forgive me for picking it up slowly. I think you're spot on about the Sharps... my cyan adjustment in CMS was a chore! I was all over the place with it. At one point I thought that I had the x and y values perfect for the yellow bar (dE) was like 30+. Adjusting tint to +1 made cyan more accurate (x and y values appropriate with low dE) but then my gray scale jumped up in dE.

Anyhow, this has been fun! I can already tell my display is looking much better after each calibration adventure. I would love to have some graphs like Steffche!

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post #5603 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntalwar View Post
How are the delta luminance values? You probably need to adjust value as well.



I don't own a Sharp, but it seems like checking "Use HSV Level Bars" under preferences would be useful (e.g. for color continuous measures).
I didn't adjust value (it seemed like nobody was with my particular model in the dedicated thread). I will definitely adjust them now.

Thanks for the advice I will check that box for sure.

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post #5604 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 05:01 PM
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@jhughly2010, sounds like you're doing a 2 point grayscale calibration in which case the 20/80 are fine. If you want to do a 10 point, get the 100% dialed in and go from there.


Measure all colors saturations to see how well your display tracks. It will help determine if a 75% cal is likely to give better results.


You should also get the GCD disk material (or any with the color check patterns) and run the color check sweep. This will show you how good or bad your calibration is.


Does your computer have an HDMI output? If so, consider getting set up to use HCFR's internal generator. You'll be glad you did
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Last edited by Basstrix; 03-10-2015 at 05:09 PM.
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post #5605 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basstrix View Post
@jhug hly2010, sounds like you're doing a 2 point grayscale calibration in which case the 20/80 are fine. If you want to do a 10 point, get the 100% dialed in and go from there.
Oh I see... I tried the 10 point (when selecting 10 point it grays out 2 point) but I have no idea how to do 10 point. It looks like the adjustments are made going downward? RGB are all at "0" and the only way to go is below "0" for each one.

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post #5606 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 07:01 PM
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Both methods follow the same principle with more control on the 10 point. Sometimes you can get a really nice gamma with a 2 point, sometimes you have to go for the 10 point. Point #10 is the only one that only goes negative...that's why I suggested you balance RGB on that one first. It will shift the luminance quite a bit.
















Your grayscale isn't bad at all...just the 100% point. I think your time would be better spent going through the whole process instead of getting hung on a small detail. I didn't mean to distract you from completing the rest of your calibration.
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post #5607 of 6295 Old 03-10-2015, 09:44 PM
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@Basstrix I think I figured it out... please let me know if this sounds right: I fired up HCFR and adjusted the gray scale with 10 point... too difficult. I went back to 2 point and was able to get dE under 1 for everything under 50%. Above 50% everything looked good. I brought 80% up to dE 2.5 so that 90% dropped to under dE3. 100% is much lower than dE10 (not it is at dE8.1).

I tried adjusting 100% saturation test patterns again with absolutely no luck. I then gave 75% saturation a try. I adjusted preferences as you suggested (changing standard to 75/75). I then turned on run a continuous measure and went straight to the CIE diagram. I fired up colorHCFR Windows (saturation) and went to 75% saturation for each color. It was remarkably easy to get line up each test point on the target. It took little time at all (as compared to 100% saturation). I think it is really good. I called it an evening as it pertains to calibrating and am going to enjoy a movie.

When I get a chance I'll fire up HCFR and run through the whole gamut again and pick the brains of the great minds. I have to order a USB extension cable first... it is a pain to sit so close to the TV balancing a laptop on a stool.

Oh I saw the edits: "You should also get the GCD disk material (or any with the color check patterns) and run the color check sweep. This will show you how good or bad your calibration is. Does your computer have an HDMI output? If so, consider getting set up to use HCFR's internal generator. You'll be glad you did"

I'll have to do this for sure. I have an HTPC that I am using for all the test pattern material (I exclusively use the HTPC for movies too) and my laptop (with HDMI) is being used for the HCFR.

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post #5608 of 6295 Old 03-11-2015, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
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You should pick the one closest to what your display technology (backlight for LED/LCD) is so I think the h6400 display would use LCD White LED IPS (WLED AC LG Samsung), I don't know what the JVC uses.
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No, getting the correct backlight is what's important.
Testing these in the past several releases… What I thought was interesting with my LCD's, one lacked 3 - 4 clicks of Red Gain and the CCFL lacked 2 - 3 clicks of Blue Gain. You could see in Casino Royale the Sepia scene lacked on one and was too much on the other. Even the Offsets it pushed a bit too much blue. 2 - 3 clicks.

So I had to go with the default Non-Refresh option and the greyscale came out looking correct. Including Offsets.
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post #5609 of 6295 Old 03-11-2015, 11:27 AM
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xvfx are you referring to h6400 or some other tv? I've also checked my results with Calman Colorchecker and results are very close.
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post #5610 of 6295 Old 03-11-2015, 12:41 PM
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LCD in general. Referring to picking one that closely matches the type of display. LED/CCFL.
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