HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 190 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5671 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
The DVD generator is disabled for patch sets that don't have a currently available DVD/BD with those patterns. I could probably put together a simple one that includes them but I wouldn't get to it for awhile.
I was able to store the OPT patterns as image files so I can put those on a USB stick
and use it with my blu-ray player.

So, for now, it would be great if you only enable the DVD generator with the OPT colorspace.
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post #5672 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 03:42 AM
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Hi Zoyd,

I found an anomaly with the last version of HCFR, the level RGB of the window ' free measures ' is not updated during the measures and remain positioned on the values of the target chosen in the gray scale window.
Perhaps is there an option to activate them?

Great works Zoyd, thanks again.

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post #5673 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 03:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerlucun View Post
Hi Zoyd,

I found an anomaly with the last version of HCFR, the level RGB of the window ' free measures ' is not updated during the measures and remain positioned on the values of the target chosen in the gray scale window.
Perhaps is there an option to activate them?

Great works Zoyd, thanks again.

Jean-Jacques
It's currently disabled, I haven't gotten a chance to work out how to handle reference assumptions for the free measures page yet.
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post #5674 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

See you tomorrow.
Ok I got things up and running last night with the meter, software and patterns. All is working and I was able to do my first few passes at grey scale which I got very accurate results with using the 2PT and 10PT White Balance controls on my TV. However, I'm struggling to understand a few things as follows.

1. How do I correct my gamma curve. Right now the curve from 10% to 30% is pretty much perfect, but from 70% on up it has a very steep rise and I don't understand what I need to do to adjust this. I'm using the BT.1886 target during the measurements. My gamma in the advanced service menu for Movie mode is OFF / -1 which I'm pretty sure are the default settings.

2. I have assumed I should be using window calibration patterns. Is this correct?

3. I opted not to use my tripod to mount the sensor and have it flush mounted against the screen just using the counter balance weight. I have read that using a tripod may be better, but wasn't sure how close I need to get the meter to the screen in this scenario.


I'm calibrating on a Samsung F8500 under Movie mode / Warm2.

Thanks

Last edited by molfious; Yesterday at 07:41 AM.
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post #5675 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 08:56 AM
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Yeah, gamma's a tough one. The best way I found to deal with it is to look at Y and Y target in the gray scale chart:



Raise or lower red, green and blue equally until you're close, then rebalance the colors to lower your dE again.
If it's way off at the high end, changing 100% helps, though there's no target to help you.
I keep my meter on a tripod about 2 inches from the screen.
Having fun yet?

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post #5676 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molfious View Post
1. How do I correct my gamma curve. Right now the curve from 10% to 30% is pretty much perfect, but from 70% on up it has a very steep rise and I don't understand what I need to do to adjust this. I'm using the BT.1886 target during the measurements. My gamma in the advanced service menu for Movie mode is OFF / -1 which I'm pretty sure are the default settings.
You'll have to move to the user menu and use the 10pt controls for tweaking the remainder of the grayscale and setting gamma.

Quote:
2. I have assumed I should be using window calibration patterns. Is this correct?
No correct answer here other than don't use full screen. I suggest APL patterns (8% window/25% constant APL) for plasmas so that you are calibrating the transfer function using patterns more representative of actual content levels.

Quote:
3. I opted not to use my tripod to mount the sensor and have it flush mounted against the screen just using the counter balance weight. I have read that using a tripod may be better, but wasn't sure how close I need to get the meter to the screen in this scenario.
Contact mode is fine and much more convenient, there is no advantage to a tripod mount off-screen.
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post #5677 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 09:12 AM
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Yes, lots of fun. I mean who wants to actually watch content when you can do this. My wife is the obvious answer, but she has other displays she can use for now!

Do you do raise and lower RGB gains only to try and match the grey scale targets or do you have to use offset (bias) as well?
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post #5678 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 09:21 AM
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I just use the 10 point grayscale settings (I'm not home, so I can't give you the exact menu sequence).
If the entire upper end is off, change the 2 point settings (gain?) first, then fine-tune with 10 point.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #5679 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I just use the 10 point grayscale settings (I'm not home, so I can't give you the exact menu sequence).
If the entire upper end is off, change the 2 point settings (gain?) first, then fine-tune with 10 point.
Thanks again for all the info. When I get home again tonight I am going to focus on gamma with 2 point only and get that as close as possible. That seems like the best approach. Then I will try and bring the grey scale into balance as you suggested after.

With the color patterns do you use the 75% or 100% patterns?
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post #5680 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Contact mode is fine and much more convenient, there is no advantage to a tripod mount off-screen.
Thanks Zoyd, here is what I am thinking for tonights plan then.

1. I will start with trying to get the gamma as close as I can by using the White Balance controls in the Service Menu.
2. Then I will use the 2PT White Balance controls in the user menu to bring the grey scale into decent alignment.
3. I will follow-up with fine tuning using the 10PT White Balance.

Does the approach make sense? Also I was using the 100% color patterns before and plan on switching to the 75% ones tonight.
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post #5681 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molfious View Post
Thanks Zoyd, here is what I am thinking for tonights plan then.

1. I will start with trying to get the gamma as close as I can by using the White Balance controls in the Service Menu.
2. Then I will use the 2PT White Balance controls in the user menu to bring the grey scale into decent alignment.
3. I will follow-up with fine tuning using the 10PT White Balance.
1. Set contrast/cell to desired peak white and to check for clipping. [movie mode never clips on the F8500]
2. 2pt white balance 20/80 or 30/80
3. 10 pt white balance/gamma [these can be done together as you step through each level]
4. 75% intensity patterns for color gamut measurements are fine
5. CMS
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post #5682 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
No correct answer here other than don't use full screen. I suggest APL patterns (8% window/25% constant APL) for plasmas so that you are calibrating the transfer function using patterns more representative of actual content levels.
Sorry one more question. Where do I get these patterns? Are they on the AVS pattern disc or do I need to get them some place else?
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post #5683 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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HCFR can generate them for you or there are various flavors available on AVSHD, GCD, and Mascior's disks.
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post #5684 of 5699 Old Yesterday, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molfious View Post
Thanks again for all the info. When I get home again tonight I am going to focus on gamma with 2 point only and get that as close as possible. That seems like the best approach. Then I will try and bring the grey scale into balance as you suggested after.

With the color patterns do you use the 75% or 100% patterns?
I was only able to use 2 point on my Sharp set as the 10 point brought 2 point back to defaults. Furthermore the 10 point yielded confusing and horrible results.

Don't be discouraged if you are having a hard time getting every 10% increment below a delta E of 1 like LastButNotLeast was able to. I was able to (after much play) get most of mine under 2 (with the exception of 100%).

I wasn't able to get my colors anywhere near the 100% color saturation points. I had to use 75% color saturation which yielded far better results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by molfious View Post
Sorry one more question. Where do I get these patterns? Are they on the AVS pattern disc or do I need to get them some place else?
I used my HTPC to display the AVS HD 709 test patterns while my laptop and meter did HCFR. I used the AVS HD 709 MP3 version and stuck with ColorHCFR Windows. For grayscale I used the 10% Grayscale and for changing color (Hue and Saturation) I used the file 75% color.

I included in this post all of the pointers that these helpful gentlemen have given me in the past month:

HCFR pointers:
• The AVSHD709 disk (pattern material) has saturation sweeps in 25% increments. To use them, que them up on your disk just as you did for grayscale and primary/secondary colors, then, in HCFR, go to Measures/Saturations/* From there you can select to measure all colors or just a color at a time.
• You can also use the Rec709 75%/75% color space and HCFR will calculate the targets for you. You can set this color space under Advanced\Preferences and look on the References tab for "Standard" and select HDTV-Rec709 (75%/75%). Only use the 75% space for making adjustments...return the S/W back to the HDTV-Rec709 before you run another set of sweeps.
• You should be able to dial that 100% point's dE down to 3 or below and then it will be very good. My recommendation is to get 100% balanced and then work the rest of the gamma curve around that. Sharp's CMS for the 100% white point only move in one direction whereas they move +/- for the remaining points (which is why I recommend starting with the 100% point).
• To dial in your colors, you should be using hue, saturation, and value. Value is the same as luminance. First dial in hue then saturation then value. They all affect one another, so you'll probably have to go back and adjust hue once you're done getting the luminance set...and so on. .....it's an iterative process.
• Now, with all of that being said, Sharp's Aquos technology has an issue with saturation tracking (cyan appears to be the worst offender) and I can tell you from experience that using a 75% calibration will yield far better looking images than with 100%. I'm still trying to overcome the particularly bad tracking my Sharp has and will be posting up questions on this board soon.
• I don't own a Sharp, but it seems like checking "Use HSV Level Bars" under preferences would be useful (e.g. for color continuous measures).
• If you are using an AVS HD 709 disk you can use the 100% saturation window patterns and use the continuous measurements in HCFR to read Red, Green, Blue, yellow, Cyan, Magenta and white. While the continuous measurements are running you can switch to the CIE Diagram and you will see where the color falls on the chart. Try to get close to the x and y coordinates below. Look at the attached chart it gives you an idea of where to increase hue/saturation to move the points on the x and y axis. Once you get close go back to Measure tab and choose the Primaries and Secondaries view. This will allow you to see the specific x / y values. The delta luminance would probably be controlled by your Gain setting. There you want to be as close to 0% as possible and you can see that on the same Primaries and Secondaries view ( you might need to hit the down arrow on editable data to see this line). Once all the free measures are close you can do a sweep measure of primaries and secondaries to get the delta E. This will give you all the values. Try to get delta E < 3 if at all possible. Good luck!

HDTV - REC 709:
Red primary: x=0.640 / y=0.330
Green primary: x=0.300 / y=0.600
Blue primary: x=0.150 / y=0.060
Yellow secondary: x=0.419 / y=0.505
Cyan secondary: x=0.225 / y=0.329
Magenta secondary: x=0.321 / y=0.154

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I'm trying to figure out what is meant by this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
2. 2pt white balance 20/80 or 30/80
I don't know what is meant by 20/80 and 30/80.

I also can't figure out how to get continuous reading to work after I have taken a reading so I can adjust items on the fly?
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I'm trying to figure out what is meant by this.


I don't know what is meant by 20/80 and 30/80.

I also can't figure out how to get continuous reading to work after I have taken a reading so I can adjust items on the fly?
Start by adjusting RGB High with the 80% white and then low with the 20% White (or you can do 30% white).

Press the green button it says run if you scroll over it

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Start by adjusting RGB High with the 80% white and then low with the 20% White (or you can do 30% white).

Press the green button it says run if you scroll over it
Figured it out. Was having a problem with my sensor - it wasn't plugged into the USB extension cable all the way and was causing a problem.
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Is Gain and offset independent or should be. I got gain at reference numbers, but offset has blue to high. When I adjust it to bring blue down it affects gain. What am I missing?

I don't see any tint in grayscale pattern, but that would be better represented in the grayscale tracking (e.g delta E) I'm assuming.
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Well, I have been able to get very accurate grey scale and gamma settings, but I feel like I am having an issue with excesive noise / variance in the single in my display and it is making calibration more difficult. Is anyone aware of this type of issue on the Samsung PN60F8500?
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post #5690 of 5699 Old Today, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
Is Gain and offset independent or should be.
no, they interact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by molfious View Post
Well, I have been able to get very accurate grey scale and gamma settings, but I feel like I am having an issue with excesive noise / variance in the single in my display and it is making calibration more difficult. Is anyone aware of this type of issue on the Samsung PN60F8500?
They are very stable, white point drift after an initial 1/2 hour warm-up is typically 0.2 dE during my LUT profiles and this is in luminance, the chromaticity stability is even better. Can you provide something a little more quantitative?
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They are very stable, white point drift after an initial 1/2 hour warm-up is typically 0.2 dE during my LUT profiles and this is in luminance, the chromaticity stability is even better. Can you provide something a little more quantitative?
I have noticed it a lot lately on my display even before I start with calibration. When I get up close to the display I can see an excisive amount of back ground noise, especially in blacks. I have also noticed that when I connect it to my comptuer as a display I am getting a fair amount of vairnace in the screen refresh rate.

When I get home tonight I am going to pull everything aprtart and rewire the entire system. Perhaps I am getting frequency leakage from some cables or a device that is too close to the setup. It was late last night when I started to invetigate, but I'm starting to think it may just be interference perhaps by a modulation device like my cable modem or my wireless router.
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
No, that's just dithering you are seeing, it's normal.
Thanks Zoyd, I'm about to enter into primary and secondary color adjustments on my F8500. Any suggestions based on your experience with the display on how to approach this?

My thoughts as follows:

1. I will boost color from default value of 50 to about 55.
2. Do primary only first.
3. Then do primary and secondary in a second pass.
4. My plan is to use the small size 100% APL patterns on the AVS709 disc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molfious View Post
1. I will boost color from default value of 50 to about 55.
No, you set color and tint with a blue screen (RGB mode) and a pattern like this, found on the AVS disc and elsewhere:



You've seen some of the F8500-specific threads, I trust:
Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk]

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The small APLs are fine and will give you a little higher gamma/more saturated final result. You need to use the same patterns for grayscale and color measurements.

The best sequence I've found on the F8500 for BT.1886 target is:

1. Set color between 55-60.
2. Calibrate primaries/secondaries using the 75%/75% color space. (available on the GCD disk)
3. Set flesh tone control using the light skin color checker pattern. (available on the GCD disk)
4. Run saturation sweeps and color checker sweep to check results. (available on the GCD disk)
5. Repeat at different color setting if you don't like something.

Unfortunately the APL patterns on the GCD disk are different than the AVSHD disk so for efficiency it would be better to use the GCD disk. This is another reason why moving to an automatic pattern generator is preferred. The closest APL patterns to the small AVSHD are the 4% ones on Mascior's disk, that disk also has saturation sweeps and color checker patterns.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
No, you set color and tint with a blue screen (RGB mode) and a pattern like this, found on the AVS disc and elsewhere:
That's standard practice but it doesn't work on the 8500. Tint does not need adjustment and if you set color this way the entire interior of the gamut is undersaturated.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
This is another reason why moving to an automatic pattern generator is preferred. The closest APL patterns to the small AVSHD are the 4% ones on Mascior's disk, that disk also has saturation sweeps and color checker patterns.
I presume your new OPT selection takes all this into account.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
You've seen some of the F8500-specific threads, I trust:
Michael
Thanks Michael, I have seen that thread and have been looking through it to see what I glean from other peoples experiences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Unfortunately the APL patterns on the GCD disk are different than the AVSHD disk so for efficiency it would be better to use the GCD disk. This is another reason why moving to an automatic pattern generator is preferred. The closest APL patterns to the small AVSHD are the 4% ones on Mascior's disk, that disk also has saturation sweeps and color checker patterns.
Thanks Zoyd, do you have a link I could reivew about creating an automtic pattern generator?
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post #5699 of 5699 Old Today, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molfious View Post
Thanks Zoyd, do you have a link I could reivew about creating an automtic pattern generator?
It's built into HCFR; the computer generates the images on the display, which works for those of us using HTPCs as our primary source. If your source is your BDP, you are better sending the images from that device.

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