HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 197 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5881 of 5909 Old 04-23-2015, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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hmmm...I can't test on Vista or XP but I changed the code that maintains aspect ratio to something a little safer. Please download and test, same version number on sourceforge.
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post #5882 of 5909 Old 04-23-2015, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
hmmm...I can't test on Vista or XP but I changed the code that maintains aspect ratio to something a little safer. Please download and test, same version number on sourceforge.
Thanks zoyd. The latest version no longer crashes on my Surface Pro running Windows 8.1.
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post #5883 of 5909 Old 04-24-2015, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
hmmm...I can't test on Vista or XP but I changed the code that maintains aspect ratio to something a little safer. Please download and test, same version number on sourceforge.
Latest version doesn't crash on Vista. Much appreciated!
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post #5884 of 5909 Old 04-25-2015, 05:58 AM
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Just wanted to take this opportunity to thank Zoyd for all the outstanding work he does here on a daily basis. He is never to busy to answer questions and he has helped me a lot with my F8500 over the past several weeks. We are lucky to have him as a resource. Thank you Zoyd for all that you do with HCFR and your willingness to help it is truly appreciated !!
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post #5885 of 5909 Old 04-25-2015, 09:32 AM
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HCFR Dual Display Support

I'm running HCFR on my laptop. The built-in display has a resolution of 1600x900, whereas the second display (TV to be calibrated) has full HD resolution (1920x1280). Sometimes I noticed that the test pattern only fills the upper left portion of the TV screen. My guess is that the pattern is using the laptop screen resolution rather than the TV screen resolution. It's not a problem for direct-view TVs as I can simply place the meter accordingly, but for projectors I'm afraid that the stray light may affect the accuracy of the measurement of darker patterns.

Is there an option to select the size of the test pattern?

Also, when running in dual display mode, it would be easier to be able to click directly on the button for a different test pattern, without having to "escape" out of the previous button.
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post #5886 of 5909 Old 04-25-2015, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I'm running HCFR on my laptop. The built-in display has a resolution of 1600x900, whereas the second display (TV to be calibrated) has full HD resolution (1920x1280). Sometimes I noticed that the test pattern only fills the upper left portion of the TV screen. My guess is that the pattern is using the laptop screen resolution rather than the TV screen resolution. It's not a problem for direct-view TVs as I can simply place the meter accordingly, but for projectors I'm afraid that the stray light may affect the accuracy of the measurement of darker patterns.

Is there an option to select the size of the test pattern?
No, the pattern is sized using the selected display resolution. If you are using a mirrored desktop this won't work, switch modes so you have two separate displays and make sure you select the 1920x1080 display in the view images set-up box.

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Also, when running in dual display mode, it would be easier to be able to click directly on the button for a different test pattern, without having to "escape" out of the previous button.
Not gonna happen. Keys that you can use to escape the current pattern are esc, return, ctrl, & alt
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post #5887 of 5909 Old 04-27-2015, 08:42 PM
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zoyd, I got a question for you (though it's probably a more generic calibration question but I will start here none the less).

I'm using HCFR 3.2.1 trying to calibrate a 39" Seiki 4k (SE39UYO4). It's a POS. Anyway, it only has RGB gain and offset with no real 10 or 11-pt grayscale (nor CMS).

I'm am doing an 80/30 grayscale calibration. Here's the problem: I do a grayscale sweep using BT.1886 to get my curve. I do 80% first and match xyY using gain and do the same for 30 using offset. I redo my grayscale sweep. My delta is 1.00 with a max of 2.18. Problem, my target luminance numbers look way off. MOREOVER, when I redo the sweep, even though I have a lower dE it looks like HCFR recalculated new target Y's and they are lower than the previous batch. This cycle repeats if I start over (80/30 xyY, sweep, 80/30, sweep, etc. etc.).

Am I reading HCFR wrong or is my methodology screwed up?

Also, I notice now that my Y value is not static. It dynamically adjusts as I adjust. How is this suppose to work? (I tried using a power law 2.22 but got similar results).

Last edited by pisymbol; 04-27-2015 at 09:20 PM.
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post #5888 of 5909 Old 04-27-2015, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
I'm am doing an 80/30 grayscale calibration. Here's the problem: I do a grayscale sweep using BT.1886 to get my curve. I do 80% first and match xyY using gain and do the same for 30 using offset. I redo my grayscale sweep. My delta is 1.00 with a max of 2.18. Problem, my target luminance numbers look way off. MOREOVER, when I redo the sweep, even though I have a lower dE it looks like HCFR recalculated new target Y's and they are lower than the previous batch. This cycle repeats if I start over (80/30 xyY, sweep, 80/30, sweep, etc. etc.).
The 2-point control is used to get the correct colour temperature; it cannot be used to adjust gamma. When you adjust the gain, HCFR will recalculate the target Y values which are based on the measured values at 0% and 100%.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 04-28-2015 at 04:20 AM.
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post #5889 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The 2-point control is used to get the correct colour temperature; it cannot be to adjust gamma. When you adjust the gain, HCFR will recalculate the target Y values which are based on the measured values at 0% and 100%.
2-point grayscale is quite common when you don't have a real 10/11-pt grayscale settings (for example my Vizio has 11-pt grayscale starting at 5% and then the rest in 10% increments).

Ahhh, wait, I see what you are saying with respect to EOTF (duh, that makes sense). So I'm pretty much SOL here and it is what it is.
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post #5890 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The 2-point control is used to get the correct colour temperature; it cannot be used to adjust gamma. When you adjust the gain, HCFR will recalculate the target Y values which are based on the measured values at 0% and 100%.
I have a question... i have in gamma in my tv 2pt and 20pt control and cms control so in my tryings (in previus pages you had saw my results) to get at 100% white 120Y or 35ftl i was succsesfull in color temperature according to HCFR and grayscale where under 1Δe but my gamma line is starting from 2.4 in 10% to 2.2 in 50% to 1.9 at 90-100% so i dont know or i dont understand the correct procedure to calibrate my tv meaning which is the crucial here? the gamma to be correct and in all the gamma scale from the 3 colors and to ignore the final gamma number? or to raise all colors to reach the correct gamma but ignore the 35ftl rule?

Im a bit confused sorry but seems that my tv (LG 4K EdgeLit) doesnt really like the 120Y as max luminance...
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post #5891 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
I have a question... i have in gamma in my tv 2pt and 20pt control and cms control so in my tryings (in previus pages you had saw my results) to get at 100% white 120Y or 35ftl i was succsesfull in color temperature according to HCFR and grayscale where under 1Δe but my gamma line is starting from 2.4 in 10% to 2.2 in 50% to 1.9 at 90-100% so i dont know or i dont understand the correct procedure to calibrate my tv meaning which is the crucial here? the gamma to be correct and in all the gamma scale from the 3 colors and to ignore the final gamma number? or to raise all colors to reach the correct gamma but ignore the 35ftl rule?

Im a bit confused sorry but seems that my tv (LG 4K EdgeLit) doesnt really like the 120Y as max luminance...
You don't need to "ignore the 35 Ft-L rule" in order to get the correct gamma.

Adjusting the gamma should not significantly affect the maximum luminance. To correct the gamma curve, you do NOT touch the 100%. Simply adjust the Y for the in-between (5-95%) values to get close to their respective Target Y values. It does involve some iterations as adjusting 95 has some effect on 100, so you will need to re-measure 100 and let HCFR re-calculate the Target-Y values.
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post #5892 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 07:59 AM
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Quick question about blu-ray player settings, my Sony has three options of brightness or gamma settings. Bright, Standard, and Theater, are these gamma settings?
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post #5893 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 08:37 AM
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Quick question about blu-ray player settings, my Sony has three options of brightness or gamma settings. Bright, Standard, and Theater, are these gamma settings?
Those settings do apply different gamma curves, but may also affect other settings such as brightness and colour saturation.
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post #5894 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You don't need to "ignore the 35 Ft-L rule" in order to get the correct gamma.

Adjusting the gamma should not significantly affect the maximum luminance. To correct the gamma curve, you do NOT touch the 100%. Simply adjust the Y for the in-between (5-95%) values to get close to their respective Target Y values. It does involve some iterations as adjusting 95 has some effect on 100, so you will need to re-measure 100 and let HCFR re-calculate the Target-Y values.
I miss something i suppose...the procedure i follow is this.
1. I set the backlight, brightness and contrast with the patterns not to clip over in white and not to be to black in above 235 and bellow 16 by watching the flashing bars.
I end up then with a setting that if i measure the 100 white i get 120-130Y or 35 to 38 ftl.

2. I fix the color setting by getting the Y white number multiplied * 0.21 to get the red luminance.

3. I fix the tint setting

4. I measure the grayscale using windows with 5% steps and i get a result, the in 2pt control i use the 30ire and 80ire (in my lg it says low and high so i dont really know is low is 30 and 80 is high but all guides say this is it in all tv's) and i alter there to achieve Δe under 1 and watching to achieve what hcfr tells me to achieve in target in 30 and 80.

5. I go to 20pt and i measure and fix the 50ire then i remeasure 30 and 80 then i go to 10 90 70 60 40 etc continiously back and forward to achieve a good balance and in the end i get a grayscale in hcfr that everything is below 1 Δe.

6. I go to 75% saturations (in my 1st tryings i was using the 100% but here some good people told me that 75 is better) and in CMS i fix them with error below 2.

7. I do full color measures in hcfr of 25 50 75% and i am ok under with Δe under 2

Thats my procedure and my knowledge so far of 2 weeks readings and tryings but i end up with 2 problems.
The first is that my gamma line is crazy starting from 2.5 at 10% going to 2.2 at 50% and falling to 1.9 at 90% and the second problem is that in 100% saturations the red is very good but green and blue are off with Δe above 4 even though all 3 are pretty fine from 75% and bellow.

I dont know what i do wrong...maybe this model 55ub950v or 9500 in US doesnt have the ability to calibrate correctly even if it has all the controls needed. Its also a huge effort to the damn webos that you need always to exit from settings then measure and again in settings etc...takes me 4 hours every time and this is because if you have the settings open i get +20% in Y everywhere from the white settings menus..

One last thing is im not 100% sure if i need to use full fields or windows ...and in my last try i had disabled from service menu the backlight totally.

Last edited by BlueChris; 04-28-2015 at 01:11 PM.
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post #5895 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You don't need to "ignore the 35 Ft-L rule" in order to get the correct gamma.

Adjusting the gamma should not significantly affect the maximum luminance. To correct the gamma curve, you do NOT touch the 100%. Simply adjust the Y for the in-between (5-95%) values to get close to their respective Target Y values. It does involve some iterations as adjusting 95 has some effect on 100, so you will need to re-measure 100 and let HCFR re-calculate the Target-Y values.
I miss something i suppose...the procedure i follow is this.
1. I set the backlight, brightness and contrast with the patterns not to clip over in white and not to be to black in above 235 and bellow 16 by watching the flashing bars.
I end up then with a setting that if i measure the 100 white i get 120-130Y or 35 to 38 ftl.

2. I fix the color setting by getting the Y white number multiplied * 0.21 to get the red luminance.

3. I fix the tint setting

4. I measure the grayscale using windows with 5% steps and i get a result, the in 2pt control i use the 30ire and 80ire (in my lg it says low and high so i dont really know is low is 30 and 80 is high but all guides say this is it in all tv's) and i alter there to achieve ?e under 1 and watching to achieve what hcfr tells me to achieve in target in 30 and 80.

5. I go to 20pt and i measure and fix the 50ire then i remeasure 30 and 80 then i go to 10 90 70 60 40 etc continiously back and forward to achieve a good balance and in the end i get a grayscale in hcfr that everything is below 1 ?e.

6. I go to 75% saturations (in my 1st tryings i was using the 100% but here some good people told me that 75 is better) and in CMS i fix them with error below 2.

7. I do full color measures in hcfr of 25 50 75% and i am ok under with ?e under 2

Thats my procedure and my knowledge so far of 2 weeks readings and tryings but i end up with 2 problems.
The first is that my gamma line is crazy starting from 2.5 at 10% going to 2.2 at 50% and falling to 1.9 at 90% and the second problem is that in 100% saturations the red is very good but green and blue are off with ?e above 4 even though all 3 are pretty fine from 75% and bellow.

I dont know what i do wrong...maybe this model 55ub950v or 9500 in US doesnt have the ability to calibrate correctly even if it has all the controls needed. Its also a huge effort to the damn webos that you need always to exit from settings then measure and again in settings etc...takes me 4 hours every time and this is because if you have the settings open i get +20% in Y everywhere from the white settings menus..

One last thing is im not 100% sure if i need to use full fields or windows ...and in my last try i had disabled from service menu the backlight totally.
The Y calculation you for Red, you must do that for the other 5 colors.

Rec 709

Red: x=0.640 / y=0.330 / Y=0.2126
Green: x=0.300 / y=0.600 / Y=0.7152
Blue: x=0.150 / y=0.060 / Y=0.0722
Yellow: x=0.419 / y=0.505 / Y=0.9278
Cyan: x=0.225 / y=0.329 / Y=0.7874
Magenta: x=0.321 / y=0.154 / Y=0.2848
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post #5896 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
The Y calculation you for Red, you must do that for the other 5 colors.

Rec 709

Red: x=0.640 / y=0.330 / Y=0.2126
Green: x=0.300 / y=0.600 / Y=0.7152
Blue: x=0.150 / y=0.060 / Y=0.0722
Yellow: x=0.419 / y=0.505 / Y=0.9278
Cyan: x=0.225 / y=0.329 / Y=0.7874
Magenta: x=0.321 / y=0.154 / Y=0.2848

Yeap i have the numbers but CMS in 100% saturations dont want to follow and if i fix them a bit with these values then i destroy all scale in colors in 25 - 50 -75%
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post #5897 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
I miss something i suppose...the procedure i follow is this.

5. I go to 20pt and i measure and fix the 50ire then i remeasure 30 and 80 then i go to 10 90 70 60 40 etc continiously back and forward to achieve a good balance and in the end i get a grayscale in hcfr that everything is below 1 Δe.
I have explained it a few times in my previous replies. What you're doing (adjusting R/G/B to get a good balance) is to fix the greyscale, which is fine. However, it does NOT help getting the right gamma. To get the right gamma, you need to adjust the luminance (Y) at each level to match the Target Y as closely as possible. I do not see that in the process you're describing.
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post #5898 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I have explained in a few times in my previous replies. What you're doing (adjusting R/G/B to get a good balance) is to fix the greyscale, which is fine. However, it does NOT help getting the right gamma. To get the right gamma, you need to adjust the luminance (Y) at each level to match the Target Y as closely as possible. I do not see that in the process you're describing.
thx again m8 yes i had took your advice the last time you told me and since then i alter the RGB in each step to be in the target value that hcfr says..

What about the full fields or windows ? which is better for my type of display? its IPS Edge Lit panel.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
The Y calculation you for Red, you must do that for the other 5 colors.

Rec 709

Red: x=0.640 / y=0.330 / Y=0.2126
Green: x=0.300 / y=0.600 / Y=0.7152
Blue: x=0.150 / y=0.060 / Y=0.0722
Yellow: x=0.419 / y=0.505 / Y=0.9278
Cyan: x=0.225 / y=0.329 / Y=0.7874
Magenta: x=0.321 / y=0.154 / Y=0.2848

Yeap i have the numbers but CMS in 100% saturations dont want to follow and if i fix them a bit with these values then i destroy all scale in colors in 25 - 50 -75%
What's your source for generating patterns? HCFR internal or AVS 709 on BD ROMN etc.
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post #5900 of 5909 Old 04-28-2015, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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post #5901 of 5909 Old 04-29-2015, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
What's your source for generating patterns? HCFR internal or AVS 709 on BD ROMN etc.
I have all the calibrations Blurays's like WoW, Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark and Calibration Disc 2nd Edition and Digital Video Essentials: HD Basics but my latest tryings where with the AVS 709 BD Disk.
In start i was using my samsung bd-h6500 to play the disks but lately i use my HTPC that has a 970 and i have a BluRay Reader/Writter on it since this is my main viewing box to TV and i havent spot major differences in output between the samsung and the PC

Can anyone tell me which is the best to use Full Screen Fields or Windows in my calibration tryings? tv is LG IPS EdgeLit

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You don't need to calculate any color luminance ratios, HCFR does that for you.
I dont have now anymore the i1 pro that i had loaned to see what you mean but i wait a new i1 pro so then i need to find out where is the Targets for this in HCFR. Thx man.
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post #5902 of 5909 Old 04-29-2015, 01:02 AM
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Does the internal generator just output through an HDMI/dvi port? If so how does one know it's actually outputting a true reference signal?

I'm still searching around, but if I missed this (very possible, I seem to go blind when looking for stuff) could someone point me to what I missed?

Or a simple explanation works too, just don't want to waste anyone's time.

Regards,

Steve

Regards, (for the vast majority of people :-p)

Steve
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post #5903 of 5909 Old 04-29-2015, 01:19 AM
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Guys where is better to post my current Calibration settings of my 55UB950v? here? in a deticated new thread under calibration forum or in the deticated thread of the tv specific model?

Last edited by BlueChris; 04-29-2015 at 02:28 AM.
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post #5904 of 5909 Old 04-29-2015, 04:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Does the internal generator just output through an HDMI/dvi port? If so how does one know it's actually outputting a true reference signal?
It will send patterns to whatever device your video card is set for. You'll need to cross-reference some measurements to a known good generator to verify it's accuracy. Most people compare to their DVD/BD player.



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Guys where is better to post my current Calibration settings of my 55UB950v? here? in a deticated new thread under calibration forum or in the deticated thread of the tv specific model?
Best to post those in a thread related to your specific model.
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post #5905 of 5909 Old 04-29-2015, 02:09 PM
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@Zoyd
I was away 2-3month from this Topic and am trying to catch up with the development…


it is meanwhile maybe a little bit lame, but I would also like to thank you for your dedication to this project….the rest of us lazy guys (not able/willing to do the programming) would not be able to pull off such a thing on our own !!


I would like to confirm one thing which was discussed 2-3 month ago concerning the saturation sweeps :
It was mentioned that (especially for plasmas) it makes sense to calibrate color with REC709(75/75)…ok with this…
But if one goes on to the saturation sweeps, one should change to standard Rec709, which is (x/100)…
I have done my calibration without changing the REC709(75/75)-gamut. Instead I have used IRE75%-Saturation patterns…
Do I get wrong results with this?


Thanks a lot
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post #5906 of 5909 Old 04-29-2015, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi - You no longer need to switch back to the normal Rec709 to run saturation sweeps. You can calibration using 75%/75% Rec709 and then immediately run saturation sweeps or the color checker.
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post #5907 of 5909 Old 04-30-2015, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Hi - You no longer need to switch back to the normal Rec709 to run saturation sweeps. You can calibration using 75%/75% Rec709 and then immediately run saturation sweeps or the color checker.
Nice tweak
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post #5908 of 5909 Old 04-30-2015, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Hi - You no longer need to switch back to the normal Rec709 to run saturation sweeps. You can calibration using 75%/75% Rec709 and then immediately run saturation sweeps or the color checker.
Nice tweak thanks
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post #5909 of 5909 Unread Today, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Version 3.2.2 has been uploaded to sourceforge with an update to ArgyllCMS 1.7.0 instrument driver code, including support for the Spyder5.

HCFR depends on the ArgyllCMS instlib, so please consider a contribution at www.argyllcms.com
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