HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 208 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6211 of 6541 Old 06-30-2015, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
No need to send me any data, I did swap dC and dH in the calculation - thanks for the catch!
You are more than welcome, I'm glad I was able to help and thanks for the updates.

I think something went wrong with the RGB levels to HSV levels transformation. I calibrated an older Epson projector to 75% saturation. The 100% primaries and secondaries are all oversaturated and have lower than reference luminance. R and C have near-perfect hue. See the attached file. All this is in line qualitatively with the RGB levels for each of the six colours. However, switching to HSV levels gives an S value smaller than 100% for both R and M. So in HSV values they appear undersaturated!

In other files B or G appear oversaturated in RGB, but incorrectly undersaturated in HSV.
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post #6212 of 6541 Old 06-30-2015, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slower View Post

In other files B or G appear oversaturated in RGB, but incorrectly undersaturated in HSV.
This is because the saturation error is calculated as the distance to the white point in 3 dimensions and not the distance of the projection onto the xy plane. So when you are under-luminance you will pull the saturation number down with it and why you can sometimes trade luminance for saturation (or vice-versa) in minimizing dE. If you take the example you uploaded and set the red Y such that the luminance error is close to zero the saturation bar will go positive.
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post #6213 of 6541 Old 06-30-2015, 09:54 PM
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Well, it turns out I just had my brightness set to high. This made 16 appear as a dark grey instead of black or video black. I'm still watching TV on this Toshiba 46sv709u. Experienced the artifacts that appear after adjusting color brightness, now I've solved that by increasing color while monitoring the CIE chart, thanks for the help Zoyd and the rest of you guys, now to start from scratch.
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post #6214 of 6541 Old 07-03-2015, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
The way it's supposed to work and let me know if it doesn't is that when you enter a black Y value via the preferences page (not directly in the grid), the 0% pattern should be skipped in both manual and automatic mode when measuring grayscale, near-black, and contrast.
zoyd,

I seem to have come across an issue with the "Override black" feature. If I turn it on and do a "Near black gray scale" run, all the points will show the manual value, i.e. I will get a flat line.

Also, it would be useful to display the Target Y in the gray scale grid, especially in situations like this when it's no longer 0. Or highlight the column to indicate it's been overridden.

Thanks.
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post #6215 of 6541 Old 07-04-2015, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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3.3.4 has been uploaded to sourceforge.
  • Update Chromecast code for ANSI contrast sequence.
  • Increased ANSI blocks to 5x5 with centered black/white.
  • Update Chromecast code for special patterns.
  • Fix nearblack sequence bug when using black override.
  • Store/recall black measurement when using black override.
  • Added highlight for black override [column background shaded for 0% stimulus]
  • Added Y Target and dE/Ref for nearblack/white grid display.
  • Static pattern detection avoidance.
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Last edited by zoyd; 07-04-2015 at 03:02 PM.
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post #6216 of 6541 Old 07-04-2015, 02:27 PM
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Please help, I did some searching but was unable to find answers for 2 questions:
1. Is there a step-by-step tutorial on how to get HCFR to recognize my ColorMunki Photo as a sensor?
2. Is there a guide on how to use Chromecast as the pattern generator?
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post #6217 of 6541 Old 07-04-2015, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post
Please help, I did some searching but was unable to find answers for 2 questions:
1. Is there a step-by-step tutorial on how to get HCFR to recognize my ColorMunki Photo as a sensor?
Update the driver through control panel with the one located in the program folder\drivers directory.

From the argyllcms installation notes for Win7 [edited path for HCFR]:
To install the Argyll Driver:
(Plug in instrument)
Start -> Control Panel -> Hardware and Sound -> Device Manager
(Locate the instrument in the device list. It may be underneath one of the top level items.)
Right click on instrument -> Update Driver Software... -> let me pick from a list of device drivers on my computer -> Have disk... -> Browse...
-> HCFR\drivers -> select ArgyllCMS.inf -> Open -> OK -> Install this driver software anyway -> Close


Quote:
2. Is there a guide on how to use Chromecast as the pattern generator?
Your PC needs to be on the same network as the chromecast and then you just select it from the view images setup page. All patterns will then be sent to the Chromecast device.

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post #6218 of 6541 Old 07-04-2015, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
3.3.4 has been uploaded to sourceforge.
  • Fix nearblack sequence bug when using black override.
  • Store/recall black measurement when using black override.
  • Added highlight for black override [column background shaded for 0% stimulus]
  • Added Y Target and dE/Ref for nearblack/white grid display.
Thanks zoyd, for the update.

I have some further questions and comments on the nearblack measurements:
- on the graph, why is the displayed Y always normalized to the Target-Y at the highest point being measured? The grid does not do that.
- at 0%, the "measured" Y value is displayed to be the same as the Target-Y in the grid view, but not on the chart.
- why is the number of measurement always greater than the specified number by 1?
- Auto-scale for the nearblack graph does not seem to work sometimes. I haven't quite figured out the pattern.

Thanks again.
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post #6219 of 6541 Old 07-04-2015, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Update the driver through control panel with the one located in the program folder\drivers directory.

From the argyllcms installation notes for Win7 [edited path for HCFR]:
To install the Argyll Driver:
(Plug in instrument)
Start -> Control Panel -> Hardware and Sound -> Device Manager
(Locate the instrument in the device list. It may be underneath one of the top level items.)
Right click on instrument -> Update Driver Software... -> let me pick from a list of device drivers on my computer -> Have disk... -> Browse...
-> HCFR\drivers -> select ArgyllCMS.inf -> Open -> OK -> Install this driver software anyway -> Close
I am getting this error when trying to load the ArgyllCMS.info file.
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post #6220 of 6541 Old 07-04-2015, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
s on my computer -> Have disk... -> Browse...
-> HCFR\drivers -> select ArgyllCMS.inf -> Open -> OK -> Install this driver software anyway -> Close
zoyd,

is there any reason why DTP94 is not supported by HCFR? the Arguyll driver includes it.

Thanks.
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post #6221 of 6541 Old 07-05-2015, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Thanks zoyd, for the update.

I have some further questions and comments on the nearblack measurements:
- on the graph, why is the displayed Y always normalized to the Target-Y at the highest point being measured? The grid does not do that.
The graphs are normalized to peak white so that the R,G,B curves can be examined at the same time, this behavior is the same as the grayscale luminance chart.

Quote:
- at 0%, the "measured" Y value is displayed to be the same as the Target-Y in the grid view, but not on the chart.
The chart value is the calculated black using the EOTF rather than the measured black, I need to make those consistent.

Quote:
- why is the number of measurement always greater than the specified number by 1?
n levels + black

Quote:
- Auto-scale for the nearblack graph does not seem to work sometimes. I haven't quite figured out the pattern.
Known issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post
I am getting this error when trying to load the ArgyllCMS.info file.
Your computer has to allow unsigned driver installation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
zoyd,

is there any reason why DTP94 is not supported by HCFR? the Arguyll driver includes it.

Thanks.
Why do you say that, the DTP20, DTP92Q, and DTP94 are in the .inf file and should be recognized by HCFR, although I do not have one to test.
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post #6222 of 6541 Old 07-05-2015, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Your computer has to allow unsigned driver installation.
Thank you Zoyd, got it workking now. Wonder why M$ made it so much hassle to disable the driver signature requirement.

One other thing, I noticed every time I open HCFR (have done this lots of times trying to get driver to work), the window size reverts to original size even though Preferences->General->Save Sizes and Position is checked.
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post #6223 of 6541 Old 07-05-2015, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
The graphs are normalized to peak white so that the R,G,B curves can be examined at the same time, this behavior is the same as the grayscale luminance chart.
Normalization makes sense for the grayscale luminance, as the 100% Y is taken to be the the 100% Target-Y. The same cannot be said for the nearback run which is just a "zoomed in" view of the grayscale low end. If I use 10 points (0-10%) for nearblack run, the grid may show that the luminance and R/G/B values are "way off" at 10%, and yet the normalized graph shows everything is "right on". Similarly, for the in-between points, the graph may show a Y value higher than Target-Y, while in fact it is lower than target-Y.

I guess another way of saying this, is that the basis of normalization should be 100% white, not 10% white (or whatever the highest point being measured is).

Quote:
Why do you say that, the DTP20, DTP92Q, and DTP94 are in the .inf file and should be recognized by HCFR, although I do not have one to test.
When I connect a DTP20 (not 94), it's recognized in Windows Device Manager with the Argyll driver, but does not show up in HCFR sensor selection.

An unrelated issue: when using a power law gamma between 1.8 and 2.0, the gamma graph shows the average too low by 0.01 (e.g., 2.0 will show as 1.99). Outside the range it is OK.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-05-2015 at 06:06 PM.
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post #6224 of 6541 Old 07-06-2015, 11:35 PM
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Thanks for all the help and support here especially Zoyd and Basstrix (for the guide). I learned a lot and finally got my stubborn Sharp SQ to look relatively decent. Much lower average dE across the board.
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post #6225 of 6541 Old 07-07-2015, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
Thanks for all the help and support here especially Zoyd and Basstrix (for the guide). I learned a lot and finally got my stubborn Sharp SQ to look relatively decent. Much lower average dE across the board.
The grey scale and CIE look pretty good. You may want to finetune the luminance at 90% as the blue channel shows a gamma of 2.9 while the others are at about 2.2.

Also, I find it useful to do a 20-point scan even if the TV has a 10-point control.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-07-2015 at 06:57 AM.
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post #6226 of 6541 Old 07-07-2015, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Well you're really at the point of diminishing returns now, you'd have to play with a slightly higher color value (get red 50% sat closer to target) and clip a little in the process. The highest error in the skin tones is 1.9 so maybe you should stop now, have a beer and watch some teevee.
Zoyd, increased color one tick to 57 and flesh tone one tick to +1. RGB color clipping >235.

Red 50% sat remains +5% and Red in primaries and secondaries is +7% from target. Blue in color checker/GCD is +19%. How does one bring these in line?

On the new CIEab diagram most colors extend outside the boundaries. How does one address that, or is it relevant only for 4k displays?

Any other suggestions for improvement?

Great work on 3.3.4; full tilt sweeps are very fast. Thanks.

Edit: updated .chc file for plasma color space.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Full Tilt with color 57 final.zip (28.3 KB, 14 views)
File Type: zip 8500 Settings 070615.zip (7.5 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by bmcn; 07-07-2015 at 11:48 AM.
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post #6227 of 6541 Old 07-07-2015, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The grey scale and CIE look pretty good. You may want to finetune the luminance at 90% as the blue channel shows a gamma of 2.9 while the others are at about 2.2.

Also, I find it useful to do a 20-point scan even if the TV has a 10-point control.
I'll give it a shot tonight. This is via gray scale control correct? The Sharps C.M.S -Value has no affect whatsoever on anything. It's almost like it is broken but other owners report the same issue.

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post #6228 of 6541 Old 07-08-2015, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
Zoyd, increased color one tick to 57 and flesh tone one tick to +1. RGB color clipping >235.

Red 50% sat remains +5% and Red in primaries and secondaries is +7% from target. Blue in color checker/GCD is +19%. How does one bring these in line?

On the new CIEab diagram most colors extend outside the boundaries. How does one address that, or is it relevant only for 4k displays?

Any other suggestions for improvement?

Great work on 3.3.4; full tilt sweeps are very fast. Thanks.

Edit: updated .chc file for plasma color space.
I don't think you'll squeeze anymore out of it with the control set you have, it's quite good already. With respect to the a*b* diagram some points can exceed the target boundary due to luminance as well as saturation.
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post #6229 of 6541 Old 07-09-2015, 06:02 AM
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I wanted to post some setup instructions for HCFR users that are using my calibration disk that I missed to post on time.

From HCFR 3.3.0 or later (free open source calibration software) it's available a simpler way to select any measurement run for Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk users. For full HCFR release notes look here.

Using HCFR 3.3.x with Ted’s LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk you will be able to measure now all the available chapters from the CalMAN Session of the disk, here is the complete list of the supported chapters:

For Ted’s LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk (Free Version) users:

CalMAN’s Color Checker Classic (24 Colors)

For Ted’s LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk (Full Version) users:

ChromaPure's 2/3-Point Grayscale
ChromaPure's 11/21-Point Grayscale
ChromaPure's Color Gamut (100% Saturation w/ 100% or 75% Intensity, 75% Saturation w/ 100% or 75% Intensity)
ChromaPure's 4-Point Saturation with 100% or 75% Intensity (25 Colors)
CalMAN's 4-Point Saturation with 100% or 75% Stimulus Level (25 Colors)
CalMAN's 5-Point Saturation with 100% or 75% Stimulus Level (31 Colors)
CalMAN's 10-Point Saturation with 100% or 75% Stimulus Level (61 Colors)
CalMAN's 4-Point Luminance (28 Colors)
CalMAN's 5-Point Luminance (35 Colors)
CalMAN's 10-Point Luminance (70 Colors)
6-Point Near Black (added support for 0.5% Gray patch measurement)
Dynamic Range Clipping (90/95/98/99%/100%)
CalMAN’s Color Checker Classic (24 Colors)
CalMAN’s Color Checker SG (96 Colors)
CalMAN’s Color Checker SG Fleshtones (19 Colors)
ChromaPure’s Color Checker (25 Colors)
ChromaPure’s Color Checker Skin Tones (19 Colors)

HCFR 3.2.x follows the same pattern order with Ted’s LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Chapters for any of the above measurement options and the HCFR’s 8-bit RGB Triplets for each pattern are matching exactly the RGB Triplets that the Ted’s LightSpace CMS Calibration disk has been encoded.

Below you can find the updated list of the total CalMAN and ChromaPure Chapters that any HCFR user can use to take measurements. These Disk Chapters are accurate and match the HCFR's Color Engine Calculations:



Instructions for x-Point Grayscale ChromaPure's Chapters Measurements



Uncheck ''use round down levels" that is located to HCFR ''Preferences'' -> ''General'' Tab. This is affecting only Grayscale measurements.

Instructions for Color Checker/Saturation/Luminance/Dynamic Range/Near Black Chapters Measurements



Before starting the measurements you have to select from HCFR's Preferences -> ''References'' Tab -> ''Color Checker Patterns'' drop down menu list the selection of the measurement run you want to perform.

Select ''GCD'' if you want to measure using ChromaPure’s Color Checker Chapter.

Select ''ChromaPure skin tones'' if you want to measure using ChromaPure’s Color Checker Skin Tones Chapter.

Select ''CalMAN Classic'' if you want to measure using CalMAN’s Color Checker Classic Chapter.

Select ''CalMAN SG'' if you want to measure using CalMAN’s Color Checker SG Chapter.

Select ''CalMAN SG skin tones'' if you want to measure using CalMAN’s Color Checker SG Flesh Tones Chapter.

Select ''CM 4-Point Saturation (100AMP)'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 4-Point Saturation (100% Stimulus Level) Chapter.

Select ''CM 4-Point Saturation (75AMP)'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 4-Point Saturation (75% Stimulus Level) Chapter.

Select ''CM 5-Point Saturation (100AMP)'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 5-Point Saturation (100% Stimulus Level) Chapter.

Select ''CM 5-Point Saturation (75AMP)'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 5-Point Saturation (75% Stimulus Level) Chapter.

Select ''CM 10-Point Saturation (100AMP)'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 10-Point Saturation (100% Stimulus Level) Chapter.

Select ''CM 10-Point Saturation (75AMP)'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 10-Point Saturation (75% Stimulus Level) Chapter.

Select ''CM 6-Point Near Black'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 6-Point Near Black Chapter.

Select ''CM Dynamic Range (Clipping)'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's Dynamic Range (Clipping) Chapter

Select ''CM 4-Point Luminance'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 4-Point Luminance Chapter.

Select ''CM 5-Point Luminance'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 5-Point Luminance Chapter.

Select ''CM 10-Point Luminance'' if you want to measure using CalMAN's 10-Point Luminance Chapter.

Note: The pattern sequence of CalMAN's 10-Point Luminance is identical to the Color Checker Selection ''RGB Luminance Axis'', so it can be selected from the drop-down menu available @ HCFR's Preferences -> ''References'' Tab.

Note that there differences between the RGB Targets of CalMAN vs. ChromaPure ColorChecker & Skintones or Saturation patterns.

Thanks Zoyd (current developer of HCFR) for adding these selectable measurement options for Ted's LightSpace CMS users of HCFR.
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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
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post #6230 of 6541 Old 07-09-2015, 08:58 AM
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Hello, when using internal generator and chromcast, "Gray rounding level assumption" should checked or not?
Thanks.
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post #6231 of 6541 Old 07-09-2015, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I don't think you'll squeeze anymore out of it with the control set you have, it's quite good already.
I admit to trying.

Latest sweeps consistently return a CR in the 9k's, compared to the 5's. Black level is now 0.0033 ft/L compared to the usual 0.006. All other measurements are more or less consistent with previous sweeps. Only change I made in HCFR was increase meter dwell time to 1 second from the default 0.5; video card settings appear unaltered. Yesterday I installed 1209, but prevailing wisdom is more recent fw's don't change pq. Does changing the meter dwell time alter the mll and CR?

Thanks again Zoyd; very happy with the results.

Edit: others are noticing a similar improvement in mll after 1209.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Full Tilt one second dwell.zip (18.6 KB, 3 views)
File Type: zip 8500 Settings 070915.zip (7.5 KB, 4 views)

Last edited by bmcn; 07-09-2015 at 09:53 AM.
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post #6232 of 6541 Old 07-09-2015, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
I admit to trying.

Latest sweeps consistently return a CR in the 9k's, compared to the 5's. Black level is now 0.0033 ft/L compared to the usual 0.006. All other measurements are more or less consistent with previous sweeps. Only change I made in HCFR was increase meter dwell time to 1 second from the default 0.5; video card settings appear unaltered. Yesterday I installed 1209, but prevailing wisdom is more recent fw's don't change pq. Does changing the meter dwell time alter the mll and CR?

Thanks again Zoyd; very happy with the results.

Edit: others are noticing a similar improvement in mll after 1209.
I'll throw my meter on mine and check tonight, updated to 1209 last night but didn't notice any picture changes.

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post #6233 of 6541 Old 07-09-2015, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
didn't notice any picture changes.

This morning I noticed CNN crawl background is much blacker. My avr's media server app has a black background that always looks too bright, will use that as my eye chart later today.
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post #6234 of 6541 Old 07-09-2015, 11:15 AM
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I only watched true detective so not definitive
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post #6235 of 6541 Old 07-09-2015, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
I admit to trying.

Latest sweeps consistently return a CR in the 9k's, compared to the 5's. Black level is now 0.0033 ft/L compared to the usual 0.006. All other measurements are more or less consistent with previous sweeps. Only change I made in HCFR was increase meter dwell time to 1 second from the default 0.5; video card settings appear unaltered. Yesterday I installed 1209, but prevailing wisdom is more recent fw's don't change pq. Does changing the meter dwell time alter the mll and CR?

Thanks again Zoyd; very happy with the results.

Edit: others are noticing a similar improvement in mll after 1209.
It's very unlikely that mll can be improved via a firmware update and the dwell time of 0.5 vs. 1.0 sec should not make a difference for that measurement. But it's easy to check, set the meter back to 0.5 sec and measure full frame black. Normal values on 60",64" F8500 are 0.01 cd/m^2 for full black and 0.025 - 0.030 cd/m^2 for 20% APL black.
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post #6236 of 6541 Old 07-11-2015, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
It's very unlikely that mll can be improved via a firmware update and the dwell time of 0.5 vs. 1.0 sec should not make a difference for that measurement. But it's easy to check, set the meter back to 0.5 sec and measure full frame black. Normal values on 60",64" F8500 are 0.01 cd/m^2 for full black and 0.025 - 0.030 cd/m^2 for 20% APL black.
Deinstalled, deleted directory and reinstalled HCFR. Meter dwell time set to default of 0.5 sec. Continuously measuring GCD's full black pattern generated using the grayscale view returns a cd/m^2 of 0.012 - 0.013.

How does one have HCFR generate a 20% APL black pattern?
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post #6237 of 6541 Old 07-11-2015, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Not sure why you reinstalled but those are expected readings. For APL patterns set the level you want in the view images set-up page under APL (video) level [%].
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post #6238 of 6541 Old 07-11-2015, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Not sure why you reinstalled but those are expected readings. For APL patterns set the level you want in the view images set-up page under APL (video) level [%].

Couldn't readily find the APL settings. Will try again later.
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post #6239 of 6541 Old 07-11-2015, 05:16 PM
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New -> measures -> generator -> configure -> display
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post #6240 of 6541 Old 07-12-2015, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I've updated the current version 3.3.4 with the following changes:
  • Normalize RGB luminance plots to target instead of measured 100% values.
  • Add preferences reset to default (under Advanced menu).
  • Fix save/restore of main window size/position.
  • Added DTP-20.
  • Add luminance values to grayscale, near black/white graph tooltips.
  • Fix initial auto-scale for near black/white graphs.
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