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post #631 of 4029 Old 05-18-2012, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

For those who have seen these corrections entered, does this look like a reasonable one given the xy corrections I've already posted for WRGB?

1.024 0.000 0.000
0.000 0.994 0.000
0.000 0.000 0.987

I've been playing around with this a bit today and I looked at your results. I get an R matrix of

1.041734 -0.00457 -0.01165
0.012072 0.992504 -0.00335
-0.00652 0.007879 0.979193

But (and it's a fairly big but) this matrix shouldn't be used as a simple adjustment matrix in the current HCFR. There is some renormalization that needs to be done (the sentence below equation 10 in the paper)

Say you start with meaured xyY, save the Y for later work out xyz then multiply by the above matrix to give abc then work out the adjusted xyY as x = a/(a+b+c) y = b/(a+b+c) Y=Y from before. Without the last bit that matrix would make things worse, say using your red example of measured 0.633, 0.334, using the matrix gives abc of (.6575, 0.3390, 0.0308) which then gives xy of 0.64, 0.33 as expected, but if you just applied that matrix to the XYZ values the error goes up.

Obviously I'm looking at fixing this in HCFR so that it all works properly.

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post #632 of 4029 Old 05-18-2012, 09:25 AM
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Adjusting RGBHighEnd using the 80% screen works fine with my i1D3 (HCFR 3.0.4.0)

When adjusting RGBLowEnd using the 30% screen, Red and Blue fluctuate a lot and I can't get a stable setting. I try to set it, but once I go back, it's off again. Not sure if this is an issue with the software (i.e. the duration of the reading) or the hardware... or if it's normal?
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post #633 of 4029 Old 05-18-2012, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

Adjusting RGBHighEnd using the 80% screen works fine with my i1D3 (HCFR 3.0.4.0)

When adjusting RGBLowEnd using the 30% screen, Red and Blue fluctuate a lot and I can't get a stable setting. I try to set it, but once I go back, it's off again. Not sure if this is an issue with the software (i.e. the duration of the reading) or the hardware... or if it's normal?

It's normal. Adjustments to RGBHighEnd will affect the RGBLowEnd quite a bit, so you need to iterate between the two in order to converge on the optimal setting. Adjustments to RGBLowEnd are also more sensitive than to RGBHighEnd.

Right at the optimal settings, a single step adjustment of RGBLowEnd in R or B can generate a 4% - 8% overswing in either direction on my Samsung ES8000. Sometimes moving the green up or down by one will then allow you to move the red or blue RGBLowEnd sliders without generating as much of a swing...you're a little limited by how much you can move the green slider though, as this affects the overall luminance quite a bit and leads to possibly undesired alterations in gamma....
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post #634 of 4029 Old 05-18-2012, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

Adjusting RGBHighEnd using the 80% screen works fine with my i1D3 (HCFR 3.0.4.0)

When adjusting RGBLowEnd using the 30% screen, Red and Blue fluctuate a lot and I can't get a stable setting. I try to set it, but once I go back, it's off again. Not sure if this is an issue with the software (i.e. the duration of the reading) or the hardware... or if it's normal?

I'm having the same trouble with the D3, there was some improvement over the initial driver behavior but between 20-30% stim. red and blue fluctuate more than they should (especially red).
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post #635 of 4029 Old 05-18-2012, 11:01 AM
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If you guys are referring to fluctuation at a constant setting, then I'm only getting at most a 1% fluctuation on my D3 at a 30% stimulus. What are you both seeing?
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post #636 of 4029 Old 05-18-2012, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kha0tic View Post

If you guys are referring to fluctuation at a constant setting, then I'm only getting at most a 1% fluctuation on my D3 at a 30% stimulus. What are you both seeing?

refresh mode on plasma:

5-6% red fluctuations at 20% and 30% stimulus. it tends to be stable for several reads and then fluctuates for 2-3 reads and becomes stable again. I think everything from 5-30% needs better optimization of integration time for plasma use.
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post #637 of 4029 Old 05-19-2012, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kha0tic View Post

If you guys are referring to fluctuation at a constant setting, then I'm only getting at most a 1% fluctuation on my D3 at a 30% stimulus. What are you both seeing?

Sorry, don't know how to explain it except in basic terms so this may get wordy. BTW, I'm using i1D3 in Refresh mode and HCFR 3.0.4.0

When I use the 80% window to adjust RGBHighEnd, the Red, Green and Blue Bars are very stable. At worst they may change by 1% in either direction but most of the time it will stay where I set it, even if I need to go back to tweak the settings after making changes in RGBLowEnd.

When I use the 30% window to adjust RGBLowEnd, the Red Bar bounces the most so it's next to impossible to adjust. If I'm patient, there will be periods where it seems to settle down so I'll make my setting (i.e. 100%) , but it doesn't take long for it to start bouncing again. Problem is the next time it settles down it won't be at the same setting... it could settle down at 104% or 95%... you just never know. When I watch it bounce, it goes anywhere from 93% to 106% and it doesn't necessarily do it in single percentages... it could change from 99% to 104% instantly. Blue isn't as bad but it's still unstable enough to drive you bonkers.
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post #638 of 4029 Old 05-19-2012, 09:40 AM
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To help with the diagnosis for plasmas a stderr.log file from a session doing some 20% or 30% reads and getting the issue would be very helpful.

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post #639 of 4029 Old 05-19-2012, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks John - here is a log with D3 in refresh mode and 20% pattern. Several fluctuations were observed in red at 5% level and one or two spikes at 10%.

 

stderr_d3red.log.zip 2.638671875k . file
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post #640 of 4029 Old 05-19-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

thanks John - here is a log with D3 in refresh mode and 20% pattern. Several fluctuations were observed in red at 5% level and one or two spikes at 10%.

Great thanks.

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post #641 of 4029 Old 05-19-2012, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Butler View Post

Doesn't recognise my Colormunki Design (the Spectro version), after selecting Argyll, HCFR reports "Incorrect Driver - starting communications with the meter failed with severe error"...

I'm getting the same error on w7x64 and my DTP94. CEDP finds and uses the meter just fine, and it's also showing up in device manager, but when trying to read the meter in HCFR I'm getting that incorrect driver / argyll error followed by a 'program can't start because MSL_AII-DLL80_x86.dll is missing from your computer. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem.' Any ideas?
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post #642 of 4029 Old 05-19-2012, 02:23 PM
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need stop 2 service X-Rite!
all ok!
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post #643 of 4029 Old 05-19-2012, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

need stop 2 service X-Rite!
all ok!

Thanks - but I don't see any X-Rite services running under task manager..

--

The event log shows:


ColorHCFR.exe - System Error
The program can't start because MSL_All-DLL80_x86.dll is missing from your computer. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem.
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post #644 of 4029 Old 05-19-2012, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAd View Post

I've been playing around with this a bit today and I looked at your results. I get an R matrix of

1.041734 -0.00457 -0.01165
0.012072 0.992504 -0.00335
-0.00652 0.007879 0.979193

But (and it's a fairly big but) this matrix shouldn't be used as a simple adjustment matrix in the current HCFR. There is some renormalization that needs to be done (the sentence below equation 10 in the paper)

Say you start with meaured xyY, save the Y for later work out xyz then multiply by the above matrix to give abc then work out the adjusted xyY as x = a/(a+b+c) y = b/(a+b+c) Y=Y from before. Without the last bit that matrix would make things worse, say using your red example of measured 0.633, 0.334, using the matrix gives abc of (.6575, 0.3390, 0.0308) which then gives xy of 0.64, 0.33 as expected, but if you just applied that matrix to the XYZ values the error goes up.

Obviously I'm looking at fixing this in HCFR so that it all works properly.

John

Well, I noticed I missed the inverse fundtion of Eqns 6 & 7. Re-ran everything and came out with

R=

0.923 0.036 0.115
-0.012 0.996 -0.012
-0.003 0.003 0.983

However, after reading your post I understand that this can not be used. So, I must ask this: Is the x,y information on the corrections I have for my calibrated D3 probe useful in HCFR? (I can safely assume Y values are at spec.)

I guess I could just keep a cheat sheet and adjust xy to what their measured coordinates would need to be based on the corrections. dE values would not be accurate, however.
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post #645 of 4029 Old 05-20-2012, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAd View Post

To help with the diagnosis for plasmas a stderr.log file from a session doing some 20% or 30% reads and getting the issue would be very helpful.

Found an stderr.log file in the directory with my saved calibration files... was going to send it from my last adjustment but the file is empty. Does that mean I need to copy/save it before exiting HCFR?
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post #646 of 4029 Old 05-20-2012, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Well, I noticed I missed the inverse fundtion of Eqns 6 & 7. Re-ran everything and came out with

R=

0.923 0.036 0.115
-0.012 0.996 -0.012
-0.003 0.003 0.983

However, after reading your post I understand that this can not be used. So, I must ask this: Is the x,y information on the corrections I have for my calibrated D3 probe useful in HCFR? (I can safely assume Y values are at spec.)

I guess I could just keep a cheat sheet and adjust xy to what their measured coordinates would need to be based on the corrections. dE values would not be accurate, however.

Can you post your measured and reference RGBW xy values that you were given?
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post #647 of 4029 Old 05-20-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozark_VR View Post

I'm getting the same error on w7x64 and my DTP94. CEDP finds and uses the meter just fine, and it's also showing up in device manager, but when trying to read the meter in HCFR I'm getting that incorrect driver / argyll error followed by a 'program can't start because MSL_AII-DLL80_x86.dll is missing from your computer. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem.' Any ideas?

The DTP94 should appear twice, once for use with the supplied argyll driver and one with the datacolor driver, to use the datacolor one you'll need to copy the xdsIII.dll into the same directory as the exe.

To use the argyll driver you'll need to update the driver to the one in the drivers directory.

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post #648 of 4029 Old 05-20-2012, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Well, I noticed I missed the inverse fundtion of Eqns 6 & 7. Re-ran everything and came out with

R=

0.923 0.036 0.115
-0.012 0.996 -0.012
-0.003 0.003 0.983

However, after reading your post I understand that this can not be used. So, I must ask this: Is the x,y information on the corrections I have for my calibrated D3 probe useful in HCFR? (I can safely assume Y values are at spec.)

I guess I could just keep a cheat sheet and adjust xy to what their measured coordinates would need to be based on the corrections. dE values would not be accurate, however.

I think there's still an error in you calculations, I'd expect the diagonal to have a number above 1.0. Perhaps I'm still not exactly clear what you're trying to achive here, you have some error figures from Tom, but these will be essentially display specific and a probably no better than using the right ccss file anyway.

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post #649 of 4029 Old 05-20-2012, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Can you post your measured and reference RGBW xy values that you were given?

Already did. Post # 617
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post #650 of 4029 Old 05-20-2012, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAd View Post

I think there's still an error in you calculations, I'd expect the diagonal to have a number above 1.0. Perhaps I'm still not exactly clear what you're trying to achive here, you have some error figures from Tom, but these will be essentially display specific and a probably no better than using the right ccss file anyway.

John


I'm trying to do what Zoyd said to do at post # 624.

I'm in over my head and struggling with all this, for sure. No idea where I would find the "right ccss" file.

In a nutshell I'm trying to use my calibrated D3 meter in HCFR for which I only have WRGB xy error infomation.
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post #651 of 4029 Old 05-20-2012, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

The reference points I provided next to my meter measures are what they provided. You can see that the correction for white x is. 007, y is 0.

They provided the same info for RGB.

I took this to mean they supplied the actual reference points for each of the four colors (not just the shifts), is that correct? If you don't have the actual reference points you can't calculate the correction.
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post #652 of 4029 Old 05-20-2012, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I took this to mean they supplied the actual reference points for each of the four colors (not just the shifts), is that correct? If you don't have the actual reference points you can't calculate the correction.

My bad. I was looking on a smart phone and didn't realize I only entered the white data.

Yes I do have the reference points AND the corrections. Now before I say what the reference and meter measurements were, let me ask this. I assumed that the plasma display used was not calibrated to Rec709 (or any) spec., as is indicated by the reference measurements not showing at spec. So, I thought the difference is all that matters. IF the display had been at Rec709, the reference measurements would have been at Rec709 and my meter's measurements would be off by the 'corrections'. As an example, the white measurement I did post was x = 0.309 for my D3 and x = 0.316 for the reference. Error is 0.007. So, I assumed that if the white point x had been where it belonged at 0.313, the reference probe would have shown x = 0.313 and my D3 would have measured 0.306, for the same error of 0.007. I did that with all the WRGB data and entered those into the matrices. All reference data were entered at Rec709 specs, and my 'measured' data were what they would have been, using the same measured corrections that would have if the display had been at Rec709. Was this incorrect to do it this way. It just helped me 'see' and understand where my meter was off relative to something I have some familiarity with. It also gave me an reference matrix I thought I could use to verify my matrix skills, such as they are.


So here they are:

MY D3 | REFERENCE | CORRECTION x/y

W .309/.335 | .316/.335 | .007/0
R .625/.337 | .632/.333 | .007/-.004
G .292/.601 | .298/.595 | .006/-.006
B .150/.066 | .150/.066 | 0/0
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post #653 of 4029 Old 05-20-2012, 06:25 PM
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Since the matrix requested by HCFR is in XYZ format, should I just assume all Y values are at spec with white Y = 1, use the conversion at this link, and enter those results in the HCFR table?

http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index....yY_to_XYZ.html


Somehow I thought the 4 color thing was more accurate ...
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post #654 of 4029 Old 05-20-2012, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

My bad. I was looking on a smart phone and didn't realize I only entered the white data.

Yes I do have the reference points AND the corrections. Now before I say what the reference and meter measurements were, let me ask this. I assumed that the plasma display used was not calibrated to Rec709 (or any) spec., as is indicated by the reference measurements not showing at spec. So, I thought the difference is all that matters. IF the display had been at Rec709, the reference measurements would have been at Rec709 and my meter's measurements would be off by the 'corrections'. As an example, the white measurement I did post was x = 0.309 for my D3 and x = 0.316 for the reference. Error is 0.007. So, I assumed that if the white point x had been where it belonged at 0.313, the reference probe would have shown x = 0.313 and my D3 would have measured 0.306, for the same error of 0.007. I did that with all the WRGB data and entered those into the matrices. All reference data were entered at Rec709 specs, and my 'measured' data were what they would have been, using the same measured corrections that would have if the display had been at Rec709. Was this incorrect to do it this way. It just helped me 'see' and understand where my meter was off relative to something I have some familiarity with. It also gave me an reference matrix I thought I could use to verify my matrix skills, such as they are.


So here they are:

MY D3 | REFERENCE | CORRECTION x/y

W .309/.335 | .316/.335 | .007/0
R .625/.337 | .632/.333 | .007/-.004
G .292/.601 | .298/.595 | .006/-.006
B .150/.066 | .150/.066 | 0/0

No, you should have just plugged in the measured and reference values as is. the deltas shown above are valid only for those two locations. I took the values above and plugged them into two simulated probes in HCFR and assumed matched Y's with the proper color to white ratios and got this:

Code:
  1.062578      -0.002560       -0.011757
0.010641        1.016944        -0.003462
-0.006915       0.008919        1.000572
Apparently the assumption I made above that the color/white ratios being the same as that for rec.709 is not valid. I calculated the correction directly using the 4 color equations and obtained:

Code:
      1.10151    0.0332745      0.00000
   -0.0105232     0.957308      0.00000
  -0.00144020   0.00189014     0.978024
For comparison, here is my D3 correction matrix using the i1pro 2 as reference:

Code:
1.083791        -0.024501       -0.019650
0.050049        0.970555        -0.006558
-0.003240       0.008457        0.968854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Apparently the assumption I made above that the color/white ratios being the same as that for rec.709 is not valid. I calculated the correction directly using the 4 color equations and obtained:

Code:
      1.10151    0.0332745      0.00000
   -0.0105232     0.957308      0.00000
  -0.00144020   0.00189014     0.978024

Odd I get
Code:
1.038607 -0.0025 -0.01149
0.010401 0.994003 -0.00338
-0.00676 0.008718 0.978
And if I then apply that to all the meter readings I get back to the references.

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post #656 of 4029 Old 05-21-2012, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Was this incorrect to do it this way?

Yes, as you have the actual measurements you should use them, although the closer the display is to reference the smaller the error in doing what you did would be.

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post #657 of 4029 Old 05-21-2012, 04:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAd View Post


And if I then apply that to all the meter readings I get back to the references.

John

Glad you checked - I found the error and was able to reproduce yours.

Code:
      1.03861  -0.00250319   -0.0114921
    0.0104018     0.994002  -0.00338430
  -0.00675855   0.00871761     0.978000
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post #658 of 4029 Old 05-21-2012, 04:14 AM
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Here's my spreadsheet for calculating the matrices

 

Metercorrection.zip 6.8603515625k . file
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File Type: zip Metercorrection.zip (6.9 KB, 66 views)

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post #659 of 4029 Old 05-21-2012, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAd View Post

Odd I get
Code:
1.038607 -0.0025 -0.01149
0.010401 0.994003 -0.00338
-0.00676 0.008718 0.978
And if I then apply that to all the meter readings I get back to the references.

John

So I'm thinking this is perfectly accurate and can be entered into HCFR, and this is not the "slightly broken" calculation built into current HCFR.
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post #660 of 4029 Old 05-21-2012, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

So I'm thinking this is perfectly accurate and can be entered into HCFR, and this is not the "slightly broken" calculation built into current HCFR.

You can use this in HCFR and it will be perfect for chromaticity but it will slightly shift the Y-values of RGBYCM (not white).
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