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Old 09-04-2015, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoninF View Post
Something that just came to my mind again is the correct setup of my htpc`s graphics card...right now my settings are as follows but maybe there are any recommendations/suggestions for changes as i saw many different suggestions all over the internet
HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software
so it looks like everything should be changed to "full."

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Old 09-04-2015, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I think you mean levels encoding (colorspace would be Rec709 etc.). To set 0-255 levels (black = 0, reference white =255) you select it in the view images dialog. Note that with this setting you will clip below black and above reference white. (which is ok)
zoyd,
There seems to be a bug in the "Test colors" window. When set for 0-255, the sequence is 0, 26, 51..., 229, 255. If I change the setting to 16-235, the sequence becomes 16, 26, 51..., 229, 235; i.e., the end values are clipped, but the in-between values are not scaled accordingly.
The test patterns themselves are correct in both cases.
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Old 09-04-2015, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
zoyd,
There seems to be a bug in the "Test colors" window. When set for 0-255, the sequence is 0, 26, 51..., 229, 255. If I change the setting to 16-235, the sequence becomes 16, 26, 51..., 229, 235; i.e., the end values are clipped, but the in-between values are not scaled accordingly.
The test patterns themselves are correct in both cases.
Hmm this is why i am wondering if my calibrated settings are correct

As said i am using Ted s disc to calibrate (According to Ted the patterns are 16-235 only)
Running HCFR on my notebook connected to the Spyder 5.
Thats why i am using mediaplayer homecinema edition on my HTPC with the following settings (Mediaportals LAV will be set to the same settings): Please see attached pics...


So probably i am using the "only" combination that is not mentioned by Zoyd

GPU: 0-255
HCFR/MPCHC: 16-235
TV: 0 -255

Think i additionally have mixed up the meaning of video renderer and decoder too... decoder is set to 16-235 and renderer in mediaportal is EVR and cannot be changed. Is there a tool that shows what is really put out (limited or full)? So far i have found none...
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Last edited by RoninF; 09-04-2015 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 09-04-2015, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoninF View Post
Hmm this is why i am wondering if my calibrated settings are correct
The apparent "bug" I mentioned, even if confirmed, should not affect the calibration as the test patterns themselves are not affected.

Quote:
So probably i am using the "only" combination that is not mentioned by Zoyd

GPU: 0-255
HCFR/MPCHC: 16-235
TV: 0 -255
With 3 devices involved, there is a total of 8 possible combinations; however, only the three combinations listed by zoyd are "legit".
Essentially you have HCFR and GPU set the same way as zoyd's Option 2, which would require the TV to be set to 16-235 to match the output level. If you set the TV to 0-255, the error can still be "calibrated out" when you adjust the TV's Brightness (black level) Control, but I see no advantage with this combination.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-04-2015 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The apparent "bug" I mentioned, even if confirmed, should not affect the calibration as the test patterns themselves are not affected.


Withe 3 devices involved, there is a total of 8 possible combinations; however, only the three combinations listed by zoyd are "legit".
Essentially you have HCFR and GPU set the same way as Option 2, which would require the TV to be set to 16-235 to match the output level. If you set the TV to 0-255, the error can still be "calibrated out" when you adjust the TV's Brightness (black level) Control, but I see no advantage with this combination.
With only i just meant that i am not sure if my option can be correct.

I just made a short test which confuses me a little bit.
I started HCFR on my HTPC directly (GPU and TV set to 0-255) and checked both pattern versions (blacklevel pattern).

They way i`ve calibrated the 16-235 patterns are visible as intended (which is kind of logic) but the 0-255 pattern is totaly dark...
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Old 09-04-2015, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
zoyd,
There seems to be a bug in the "Test colors" window. When set for 0-255, the sequence is 0, 26, 51..., 229, 255. If I change the setting to 16-235, the sequence becomes 16, 26, 51..., 229, 235; i.e., the end values are clipped, but the in-between values are not scaled accordingly.
The test patterns themselves are correct in both cases.
Below is the expected and actual behaviour of the internal pattern generator
Code:
16-255: 16, 38, 60, 82, 104, 120, 147, 169, 191, 213, 235
0-255:   0, 26, 51, 77, 102, 128, 153, 178, 204, 229, 255
Are you saying you have some kind of frankenstein 16-235? Maybe delete your hcfr.ini file and try again?
Code:
16-235:  16, 26, 51, 77, 102, 128, 153, 178, 204, 229, 235
V3.3.5 and V3.3.6 are fine for me.

Last edited by chchrlam; 09-04-2015 at 06:43 PM. Reason: less confusion
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Old 09-04-2015, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chchrlam View Post
Below is the expected and actual behaviour of the internal pattern generator
Code:
16-255: 16, 38, 60, 82, 104, 120, 147, 169, 191, 213, 235
0-255:   0, 26, 51, 77, 102, 128, 153, 178, 204, 229, 255
As mentioned in my post, the patterns are correct; the noted problem is only with the "Test colors" window (View -> Test colors).
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
As mentioned in my post, the patterns are correct; the noted problem is only with the "Test colors" window (View -> Test colors).
OK I was never in that part of the program before.

I get 0, 25, 51... or 16, 37, 59...
I would expect 0, 26, 51 or 16, 38, 60...
I am not getting your 0, 26, 51... or 16, 26, 51...

Fond another bug the checking for updates window says connecting then windows says problem stopped working. Turning off networking fixes this.
Wireshark says hcfr is connecting to https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2621383/update.txt which gets 307nd temporary redirect to a an SSL Zscaler proxy which my company uses. HCFR tries to negotiate but the proxy drops the connection after complaining about TLSv1 Ignored Unknown Record. Then it crashes out.

The check for updates code might need a bit more error handling
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Old 09-05-2015, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chchrlam View Post
OK I was never in that part of the program before.

I get 0, 25, 51... or 16, 37, 59...
I would expect 0, 26, 51 or 16, 38, 60...
I am not getting your 0, 26, 51... or 16, 26, 51...

Fond another bug the checking for updates window says connecting then windows says problem stopped working. Turning off networking fixes this.
Wireshark says hcfr is connecting to https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2621383/update.txt which gets 307nd temporary redirect to a an SSL Zscaler proxy which my company uses. HCFR tries to negotiate but the proxy drops the connection after complaining about TLSv1 Ignored Unknown Record. Then it crashes out.

The check for updates code might need a bit more error handling
I noticed the same update problem... but only thing that helps for me is reinstalling the software and restart it.
I also tried to disable the update function but it seems to ignore that and next time it crashes once more.

In regards to test patterns i guess it looks like Ted`s pattern can be used for calibration with the HTPC but without using the optimal settings for the HTPC... is that correct?

Additionaly i found this one:

https://sunmaiblog.wordpress.com/201...-video-output/

Last edited by RoninF; 09-05-2015 at 12:30 AM.
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Old 09-05-2015, 12:35 AM
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madTPG dithering

I read somewhere that the madTPG uses dithering. My sceptical side told me to take some screen shots and look for the dithered pixels.
They are NOT present when the mode is set to 0-255, but they ARE present when the mode is set to 16-235.

I would expect them to be present for both as multiples of 10% grey levels are never whole numbers like 26 is. Bug or feature?
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Old 09-05-2015, 02:29 AM
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Finally i completed my calibration. Not completely happy with the Color measurements but the LG CMS system is killing me. Thank you all for your support.
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Old 09-05-2015, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chchrlam View Post
I read somewhere that the madTPG uses dithering. My sceptical side told me to take some screen shots and look for the dithered pixels.
They are NOT present when the mode is set to 0-255, but they ARE present when the mode is set to 16-235.

I would expect them to be present for both as multiples of 10% grey levels are never whole numbers like 26 is. Bug or feature?
Interesting finding. It seems to be opposite to what was discussed in Post 4124 (although I did not read all the ensuing discussion):
HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Yes, there is a switch to select either truncated or normal rounding for the gray scale calculations. With madTPG only FP equivalent of video level integers are used so if madTPG is set to video levels it won't dither, PC levels it will.
The important point is that 10% grey pattern does not need to be exactly 10.00%; as long as HCFR know what the actual value is (e.g., 10.05).
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-05-2015 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 09-05-2015, 09:31 AM
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Today HCFR wouldn't open correctly on either PC I use it with.

It checked for updates and then informed me the program had stopped working.

I removed from both and re-installed on one machine but the problem is still there.

Seems like part of the "checking for updates" process is malfunctioning.

I can give all kinds of specifics but I was using the latest official version on a new-ish i5 Tower and a Old XP laptop which now runs Windows 10 better then it ever did XP.

-Brain
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Old 09-05-2015, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
Today HCFR wouldn't open correctly on either PC I use it with.
It checked for updates and then informed me the program had stopped working.
I have encountered the same problem and went back to 3.3.5. Since the only change in 3.3.6 is the automatic update check (which is apparently not working properly), nothing is lost in going back to 3.3.5.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-05-2015 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 09-05-2015, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
Today HCFR wouldn't open correctly on either PC I use it with.
Seems like part of the "checking for updates" process is malfunctioning.
-Brain
The solution is 5-6 posts up.
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Old 09-05-2015, 06:49 PM
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Too many options, and now I'm confused (again).

I start with generator area 8% APL 25%



Then I run a grayscale sweep with the lovely butterfly scene image background



and my grayscale is now





I'm not eager to recalibrate (again) using the background setting unless there's an overwhelming advantage. Suggestions, anyone?

Incidentally, I now get a "TempUpdate.txt" file on my desktop when I run the program (3.3.6). I'm thrilled that it's checking for updates, but I don't really need proof.


Michael

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Old 09-06-2015, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Too many options, and now I'm confused (again).

I start with generator area 8% APL 25%



Then I run a grayscale sweep with the lovely butterfly scene image background



and my grayscale is now





I'm not eager to recalibrate (again) using the background setting unless there's an overwhelming advantage. Suggestions, anyone?

Incidentally, I now get a "TempUpdate.txt" file on my desktop when I run the program (3.3.6). I'm thrilled that it's checking for updates, but I don't really need proof.


Michael

I get that txt file as well.

What is the purpose of changing the generator area and APL?

Quick question to anyone... how do I make adjustments if I am going to use my HTPC instead of laptop? In other words, I have only one screen? I found that the gray scale results were different between laptop and HTPC... since I exclusively use HTPC I figured why not try to dial things in with HCFR running on HTPC.
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Old 09-06-2015, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
Quick question to anyone... how do I make adjustments if I am going to use my HTPC instead of laptop? In other words, I have only one screen? I found that the gray scale results were different between laptop and HTPC... since I exclusively use HTPC I figured why not try to dial things in with HCFR running on HTPC.
With one screen, if you select the "GDI(no background)" option for the Display Mode, you can still see the "Selected color" window which allows you to monitor the adjustments while displaying the test pattern.
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Old 09-06-2015, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
What is the purpose of changing the generator area and APL?
Because zoyd told me to?
Apparently, that's the "better" way to calibrate plasmas.

I run mine off my HTPC. No problem (besides the ones I create ).
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Old 09-06-2015, 02:47 PM
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I run mine off my HTPC. No problem (besides the ones I create ).
By selecting "no background" as Dominic suggested?

I'll try this tonight.
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Old 09-06-2015, 04:13 PM
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No, I use the 8%/25% as above.
I don't use continuous measures; I use snapshots. I find the display of the menu bar messes up the reading.
You may need/want to follow a different procedure for your LCD than for my plasma.
Michael

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Old 09-07-2015, 09:08 AM
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Which HCFR version works best with a (free) DTP-94 xr? (I know it's old) Any beginners tips?
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Old 09-07-2015, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by signmastr View Post
Which HCFR version works best with a (free) DTP-94 xr? (I know it's old) Any beginners tips?
The current version (3.3.6) still works with DTP-94 (Monaco XR).
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Old 09-08-2015, 03:56 AM
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Hi everyone...

I have finally picked up the reigns again and had another crack at calibrating the greyscale. I chose THX for now since I felt I got it close before, but it is still a little yellow for my liking, and will move to Movie mode next. I have attached before and after chc files if you're curious, as I think I got it reasonably close, but I won't actually be sticking with this mode I think.

Before going further, I did have a couple of general questions I wanted to ask to gauge the general opinion.

1. When adjusting the RGB values in the HI-LO or 10-point greyscale settings, do you adjust the GREEN to help get all three level at 100%(ish), or do you all try to leave green alone? I have read in a few guides that we should try to avoid adjusting green, instead only adjusting the red and blue values to get them close to 100%. If I do that, green is typically around 96% at best, while red is around 100 and blue is 110 or more. When increasing green I can get them all close to 100%, but as usual this requires the green and blue values to be pretty much maxed out to +30 and -30 respectively.

2. When adjusting the RGB values in the greyscale, is the goal in each step to get the dE number as low as possible, or to a certain level?

3. How much are skin tones affected by greyscale vs CMS settings? The THX calibration attached has left skin tones appearing mostly greeny yellow with magenta blemishes. I have not adjusted any CMS colour settings yet, but was just curious whether they can be used to correct skin tones without affecting the general colours too much. What about the tint control? The guide suggests that tint works for YCM the same way colour affects RGB... do people use it much to control skin tones?

4. When I was previously adjusting the CMS settings in my earlier calibrations of other modes, I was able to adjust the luminance values to the relevant levels... but when trying to adjust the hue/saturation to tweak the x/y values, I found the luminance was drastically affected. Is the goal to get all three (x/y/Y) as close as possible? I found I had to make some extreme changes to get all three close (like green brightness nearly maxed at +28, while most other colours were also a little extreme in the negative range), yet when keeping the green luminance within range, I could get the x/y values reasonably close, but not quite as close when the green luminance was high.

5. It seems recommended to adjust colour using 75% values... are there set x/y/Y targets for 75% colour patterns? It should be noted for all the above that I am using AVSHD patterns via USB on my Pioneer BD player.



Sorry... I seemed to have asked a lot more than I was originally intending to, but still just trying to get my head around it!

Thanks in advance!
Attached Files
File Type: zip THX Factory 10-point greyscale.zip (12.5 KB, 14 views)
File Type: zip THX10-poin post-greyscale-cal colour check.zip (29.8 KB, 7 views)
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Old 09-08-2015, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemery76 View Post
Before going further, I did have a couple of general questions I wanted to ask to gauge the general opinion.
You may need to first look into why your TV is so blue even in the THX mode - Max deltaE = 43! THX modes on most TV should be quite accurate out-of-the-box. Regardless, here are the answers to the specific questions:

Quote:
1. When adjusting the RGB values in the HI-LO or 10-point greyscale settings, do you adjust the GREEN to help get all three level at 100%(ish), or do you all try to leave green alone?
There is NO problem adjusting the Green, in spite of what many guides say. The only difference between Green and Red/Blue, is that Green has a much bigger effect on the luminance. For TVs that do not have a separate 10-point gamma control, the only way to get the correct gamma is to adjust all three colours to give you the correct Y at each point.

Quote:
2. When adjusting the RGB values in the greyscale, is the goal in each step to get the dE number as low as possible, or to a certain level?
Aim for the lowest dE, but there's really no difference in the end. Having the correct x, y, Y will give you 0 dE. (Note: HCFR default does not include Y in the grey scale dE, but you can select one of the dE options that include it).

Quote:
3. How much are skin tones affected by greyscale vs CMS settings?
Both will affect the skin tones, but usually one should not sacrifice grey scale to improve skintone. It's best to use one of the ColorCheck skintone sweeps to optimize the CMS settings.

Quote:
4. When I was previously adjusting the CMS settings in my earlier calibrations of other modes, I was able to adjust the luminance values to the relevant levels... but when trying to adjust the hue/saturation to tweak the x/y values, I found the luminance was drastically affected. Is the goal to get all three (x/y/Y) as close as possible?
Many TVs have "screwed up" CMS. Again, the best approach is to aim for the lowest dE.

Quote:
5. It seems recommended to adjust colour using 75% values... are there set x/y/Y targets for 75% colour patterns? It should be noted for all the above that I am using AVSHD patterns via USB on my Pioneer BD player.
Yes, it's usually better to adjust CMS using the 75%/75% test patterns. Set the Preference in HCFR accordingly so that it displays the correct target values.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-08-2015 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 09-08-2015, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The current version (3.3.6) still works with DTP-94 (Monaco XR).
But, are there advantages to upgrading to the newer version from 2.1?
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Old 09-08-2015, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You may need to first look into why your TV is so blue even in the THX mode - Max deltaE = 43! THX modes on most TV should be quite accurate out-of-the-box.
Before you start (again ), you may want to see if there is some sort of reset to factory settings available for your set. Something may have changed - intentionally or otherwise - and it might be helpful to get to a known ground zero.
Have fun!
Michael
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Old 09-08-2015, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signmastr View Post
But, are there advantages to upgrading to the newer version from 2.1?
There have been many improvements made. Since the software is free and not demanding in terms of the hardware platform, I see no reason not to upgrade (to 3.3.5).
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Old 09-08-2015, 10:32 AM
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What's the goal of the 2 point when dealing with a set that also has an additive (for this discussion, not sure if my set overrides or not) 10 point?

Shoot for perfection @20 & 80 regardless of what it does to the entire range? Work under the pretense that I'm dealing with an old set in which gains and cuts are my only option, so use iterative adjustments to get the best overall greyscale that I can? Or a combination?

I went through ISF almost 10 years ago when 10 point was just mentioned in passing, so I'm not sure what to do with 2/10 point combo, besides adjusting 2 point to make the 10 point more manageable with smaller adjustments.

One more Q. I had to sell my gear a good 5 years ago. What's recommended today for a calibrator on a budget? I know an i1 spectro to profile a colorimeter is ideal, but I can't swing that right now. I've always thought spiders are junk, but see people using them. Has their tech increased to give halfway decent results with generic display profiles?

Is there something better in the way of a colorimeter for not too much more $$?

I'd appreciate any and all feedback.

Regards,

Steve

Regards,

Steve
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Old 09-08-2015, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemery76 View Post
Hi everyone...

I have finally picked up the reigns again and had another crack at calibrating the greyscale. I chose THX for now since I felt I got it close before, but it is still a little yellow for my liking, and will move to Movie mode next. I have attached before and after chc files if you're curious, as I think I got it reasonably close, but I won't actually be sticking with this mode I think.

Before going further, I did have a couple of general questions I wanted to ask to gauge the general opinion.

1. When adjusting the RGB values in the HI-LO or 10-point greyscale settings, do you adjust the GREEN to help get all three level at 100%(ish), or do you all try to leave green alone? I have read in a few guides that we should try to avoid adjusting green, instead only adjusting the red and blue values to get them close to 100%. If I do that, green is typically around 96% at best, while red is around 100 and blue is 110 or more. When increasing green I can get them all close to 100%, but as usual this requires the green and blue values to be pretty much maxed out to +30 and -30 respectively.

2. When adjusting the RGB values in the greyscale, is the goal in each step to get the dE number as low as possible, or to a certain level?

3. How much are skin tones affected by greyscale vs CMS settings? The THX calibration attached has left skin tones appearing mostly greeny yellow with magenta blemishes. I have not adjusted any CMS colour settings yet, but was just curious whether they can be used to correct skin tones without affecting the general colours too much. What about the tint control? The guide suggests that tint works for YCM the same way colour affects RGB... do people use it much to control skin tones?

4. When I was previously adjusting the CMS settings in my earlier calibrations of other modes, I was able to adjust the luminance values to the relevant levels... but when trying to adjust the hue/saturation to tweak the x/y values, I found the luminance was drastically affected. Is the goal to get all three (x/y/Y) as close as possible? I found I had to make some extreme changes to get all three close (like green brightness nearly maxed at +28, while most other colours were also a little extreme in the negative range), yet when keeping the green luminance within range, I could get the x/y values reasonably close, but not quite as close when the green luminance was high.

5. It seems recommended to adjust colour using 75% values... are there set x/y/Y targets for 75% colour patterns? It should be noted for all the above that I am using AVSHD patterns via USB on my Pioneer BD player.



Sorry... I seemed to have asked a lot more than I was originally intending to, but still just trying to get my head around it!

Thanks in advance!
I highly recommend you take a look at this post and follow the "mini guide". This is a priceless guide that works really well for difficult to calibrate displays like the Sharp.

Really focus on the dE instead of the other values. What I have found to be useful is setting "measures/parameters/number of saturation color levels" to 10 instead of 4. This way you can focus on the "average dE" for any given color. For example (take red for example), go to measures/saturations/red and run the test. You will get the results for 10 points of saturation for red. You'll notice there is an average dE in the results. You can also see the results on the CIE diagram (this is especially helpful). After examining the results, adjust either Hue or Saturation based on the results on the CIE diagram to get the average dE even lower (don't focus on a specific saturation % only focus on average dE for entire 10 points).

Here is a helpful tool to use to adjust the CMS:


You can apply the same principle for "average dE" to the gray scale results. Make minor adjustments until your average dE for the entire spectrum is lower. Not just a specific point.

Again, study that guide and post (in fact read through those posts back in May and June when I was getting help with this same type of questions). Afterward, start adjusting grays scale but stick with 2 point (I have a feeling you'll get better results with your 2 point adjustment on the Sharp). Then see if adjusting contrast lower positively affects average dE for gray scale. I lowered my contrast until I saw diminishing returns but was still not clipping. Leave brightness alone... use the backlight to adjust luminance for now (beware of clouding). Get your gray scale average dE to be lower than 2 (with no point higher than 4). Then move onto CMS... don't dwell on gray scale because once you make adjustments to CMS it will affect gray scale... so you'll have to go back and forth a few times.

But as mentioned by others, it might be beneficial to start over and set all to factory defaults. Then pick a mode that you are going to stick with. No sense in getting pretty far with one mode just to switch to the other mode. THX mode is not recommended (it is usually limited in its ability to make adjustments by manufacturer). I'd go with Movie mode in almost all circumstances with a Sharp. Turn off active contrast, expanded color gamut, film mode, resolution enhancement, noise reduction, etc.
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