HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 223 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6661 of 7871 Old 09-27-2015, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chchrlam View Post
I calibrated my VT50 using the special Plasma OPT colour space and 10 point white balance and gamma and primaries and secondaries. The results are pretty good. Skin Checker is 2.5 as opposed to 3.9 with the 75 75 colour space.

As you can see from the screenshot I never touched the green and skipped the 2 point calibration. Notice that I had to move the sliders a lot!. A 2 point calibration would have saved me some time here.

Anyway I want more light output but the European VT50 do not have panel brightness settings. This is what I plan to do. If my logic is flawed then please let me know.

Display a 100% stimulus and do continuous measures. Increase the green one notch on 100 IRE white balance and compensate with the red and blue. Keep doing this until one of the sliders reaches the maximum mark. Or until red green or blue starts clipping (Y does not increase) then reduce the green one notch. Now just calibrate as normal(W/B, Gamma, Prim/Sec, W/B, Gamma). Should be interesting how much more cd/m2 I get - 88 at the moment. Although it might make sense to to a 2 point first as I will probably max out on the blue slider long before any clipping occurs.
I take it you didn't use a matrix correction? Without it, I never got higher than 88 - 90 either. With it, 100cdm2 came in at 45 contrast with live readings and sweeps.
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post #6662 of 7871 Old 09-27-2015, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chchrlam View Post
I calibrated my VT50 using the special Plasma OPT colour space and 10 point white balance and gamma and primaries and secondaries. The results are pretty good. Skin Checker is 2.5 as opposed to 3.9 with the 75 75 colour space.

As you can see from the screenshot I never touched the green and skipped the 2 point calibration. Notice that I had to move the sliders a lot!. A 2 point calibration would have saved me some time here.
I'd recommend dialing in the display with the 2 point as close as possible before touching the 10 point. At least on my Samsung Plasma, I've found the 10 point controls to be somewhat destructive if you make big changes. You can get something that measures perfect at the 10 points and looks terrible. This is because the space in between the 10 points is all over the map.
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post #6663 of 7871 Old 09-27-2015, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I'd recommend dialing in the display with the 2 point as close as possible before touching the 10 point.
With my JVC projector, I would use the 2-point High to adjust for the correct colour temperature, but leave the 2-point Low alone, prior to the 10-point adjustement.

Quote:
You can get something that measures perfect at the 10 points and looks terrible. This is because the space in between the 10 points is all over the map.
Even if your TV only has a 10-point control, it's useful to set HCFR in the 20-point mode to do a grey scale sweep, when you're finalizing your calibration.
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post #6664 of 7871 Old 09-28-2015, 11:06 AM
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I assume you are talking about this:
Correction matrix to map plasma EDR based correction to JETI 1211 by Zoyd
1.085195 0.009410 -0.003509
0.003101 1.086654 -0.000754
-0.008047 0.014608 1.063265

Yes I did actually use that, but I never moved my contrast control from the default of 36 after I read this from David Mackenzie here http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...1204101757.htm

"The menus look the same as they have since the 2011 redesign, but we found that on the ST50 plasma, one of the controls worked differently: the [Contrast] control allowed us to increase the brightness of the images put out by the Plasma panel, so, the first thing we did on the TX-P50VT50 was to try the same thing. We were disappointed to see that this didn’t work on this HDTV, when it’s set to the [Professional] modes. This means that the [Contrast] control on the Panasonic VT50 series, in the most useful picture modes, is basically useless, and only serves to reduce detail in bright areas if turned up. The [Professional] modes are capped at a peak white brightness of around 82 cd/m2 (when measured with a standard window pattern). By contrast, we were able to get around 130 cd/m2 out of the cheaper ST50. More on light output later in the review."

I did not notice it, but the matrix corrected the cd/m2 upwards by 7 to 87.8. Using it with a simulated sensor and no offset or errors shows brightness 108.9 cd/m2 for the 100% stimulus.

Thanks guys for all the tips. I guess I will start a new calibration with a the high end of a two point and then proceed with a ten point pushing it until it clips and back off a bit and and also look at the 5, 15, 25... points for fine tuning. If the 5 starts misbehaving in red as reported here and there then I will fix it with the low side of the two point controls. I will also play a bit with the contrast control and move it towards 45 instead of the default 36. As and experiment I might just even plot the effect of the two point calibration controls to see what they do when they are jacked up or down by 5 for each primary.

Last edited by chchrlam; 09-28-2015 at 11:14 AM.
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post #6665 of 7871 Old 09-28-2015, 12:16 PM
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Should a 100% white pattern change luminance when changing between gamma profiles? I thought 100% white should be unaffected by gamma profile changes as 100% white should always be 100% luminance on every gamma profile. Should different ten point gamma profiles have different luminance values for a 100% white pattern, all else being equal?
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post #6666 of 7871 Old 09-28-2015, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sithuk View Post
Should a 100% white pattern change luminance when changing between gamma profiles? I thought 100% white should be unaffected by gamma profile changes as 100% white should always be 100% luminance on every gamma profile. Should different ten point gamma profiles have different luminance values for a 100% white pattern, all else being equal?
In theory, the white point should remain the same while you change the gamma profile. However, similar to the "control displacement" issue observed on many TVs when you reduce the Contrast, what you "think" is the 100 IRE luminance may not be what the TV uses to calculate the gamma. In such cases changing gamma will affect the 100 IRE luminance.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-28-2015 at 08:50 PM.
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post #6667 of 7871 Old 09-28-2015, 11:27 PM
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Hi Dominic,

I am using a 12 point gamma control to set the gamma curve at the following points (5/10/15/20/30/40/50/60/70/80/90/95). I don't alter the contrast setting during the calibration.

I display a 100% white pattern using the HCFR in built generator (GDI). When I alter gamma profiles I measure significant changes in the measured luminance from my projector screen (colormunki display meter) when displaying the 100% white pattern.

You noted that some screens have a "control displacement" issue, that matches the issue I have observed. I am calibrating a JVC X3 projector.

The luminance change at 100% white has knock on implications to the gamma profile which is displayed in HCFR. HCFR is calculating the BT.1776 gamma profile from the 0% and 100% luminance readings. If the 100% luminance changes because of modifications to the gamma points between 0% and 100% then it is difficult to understand how I can finalise the gamma calibration.

Put simply, the target profile itself must be changing as soon as I make a tweak to, for example, the 40% gamma point. Meaning that as soon as I have edited the 40% gamma point to hit the target 40% gamma point on the target gamma curve, the target curve itself is wrong as I have somehow changed the 100% luminance point too?

How can a gamma calibration be achieved with this behaviour? I am beginning to doubt that I am truly displaying a 100% white, as I find it difficult to believe that I wouldn't have read about the gamma profile control in the X3 being fundamentally faulty in this way.

Any ideas on what I should try next to achieve my gamma calibration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
In theory, the white point should remain the same while you change the gamma profile. However, similar to the "control displacement" issue observed on many TVs when you reduce the Contrast, what you "think" is the 100 IRE luminance may not be what the TV uses to calculate the gamma. In such cases changing gamma will affect the 100 IRE luminance.
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post #6668 of 7871 Old 09-29-2015, 03:36 AM - Thread Starter
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post #6669 of 7871 Old 09-29-2015, 04:09 AM
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Thanks zoyd, It's reassuring to read your view that the luminance reading on a 100% white pattern should be completely unaffected by changes to gamma profile.

I've cross posted to the JVC X3 owner's thread for more information.
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post #6670 of 7871 Old 09-29-2015, 04:22 AM - Thread Starter
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post #6671 of 7871 Old 09-29-2015, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sithuk View Post
Put simply, the target profile itself must be changing as soon as I make a tweak to, for example, the 40% gamma point. Meaning that as soon as I have edited the 40% gamma point to hit the target 40% gamma point on the target gamma curve, the target curve itself is wrong as I have somehow changed the 100% luminance point too?
Are you saying that adjusting the 40% gamma point changes the 100% luminance? That really shouldn't happen, even with "control displacement" which cannot be that extreme.
Can you list the detailed steps you took between measuring the 100% luminance, and adjusting the 40% control?
In particular, make sure you're already on the "Custom Gamma" screen, and select the desired "Correction Value" (Normal, Film1, etc.), prior to measuring 100% luminance.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-30-2015 at 05:44 AM.
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post #6672 of 7871 Old 10-01-2015, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
In theory, the white point should remain the same while you change the gamma profile. However, similar to the "control displacement" issue observed on many TVs when you reduce the Contrast, what you "think" is the 100 IRE luminance may not be what the TV uses to calculate the gamma. In such cases changing gamma will affect the 100 IRE luminance.
I just did some measurements on my DLA-X30 which is the successor of the X3. The results are as follows

Code:
Gamma Preset               Luminance at 100 IRE
                Contrast 0       Contrast -10       Contrast -20
Normal             28.7             23.9               19.3
Gamma A            28.7             23.8               19.3
Gamma C            28.7             24.3               20.1
Custom 3           28.7             22.5               17.0
These results confirm my previous post, i.e., with the default Contrast, the different Gamma profiles do not affect the luminance at 100 IRE. However, if you're using a Contrast that is reduced from the default, then different gamma profiles will have different luminance levels.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 10-01-2015 at 10:39 AM.
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post #6673 of 7871 Old 10-01-2015, 11:39 PM
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Thanks Dominic, you're data indicates that the issue is likely to be a hardware related one with the X3, and not with the pattern generator of HCFR. I've posted a response to you in the X3 owners thread.
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post #6674 of 7871 Old 10-02-2015, 10:04 AM
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I just ordered an X1 Pro as my 8 yr old Display2 seemed to be way off on red, yellow and green readings.

When I configure this with HCFR, do I need to load some kind of correction file or is it pretty much plug and play?
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post #6675 of 7871 Old 10-02-2015, 10:14 AM
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I just ordered an X1 Pro as my 8 yr old Display2 seemed to be way off on red, yellow and green readings.

When I configure this with HCFR, do I need to load some kind of correction file or is it pretty much plug and play?
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post #6676 of 7871 Old 10-02-2015, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
I just ordered an X1 Pro as my 8 yr old Display2 seemed to be way off on red, yellow and green readings.

When I configure this with HCFR, do I need to load some kind of correction file or is it pretty much plug and play?
Unless you custom-calibrate your i1 Pro spectro (presumably X1 is a typo), there is no correction file to load. On the other hand, you can use the i1 Pro to generate a correction file for the Display2.
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post #6677 of 7871 Old 10-04-2015, 03:21 PM
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Quick question. I've noticed a little bit of green tinge in skin and emitting from the ambient light around actors/actresses. Green saturation and hue have been adjusted to have lowest possible dE. Green saturation is already pretty low like in the negative. I did however have to bump green up in RGB HI quite a bit to get gray scale to have a lower average dE. Is raising "G" causing the green tinge? I think lowering green saturation will negatively affect dE but I could manipulate RGB HI and LO to have a lower "G".
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post #6678 of 7871 Old 10-04-2015, 04:40 PM
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@Sithuk


Projectors can be difficult, I advise not have adjustment menus up when taking readings, yes this is a PITA.
Some projectors can remap after making adjustments, JVC models do this when leaving the gamma adjustment menu.
Watch out for automatic light output features that kick in at certain levels.
Study the resulting curves, then adjust blocks of one channel(RGB), and before anyone chimes in and says don't touch the green channel, this is a legacy argument, just be aware that green is 70% of the signal so adjustments have larger effects of levels. ie 1 click of green is not the same as 1 click of blue.

levels can shift when making cuts and gains, this is why you have to take repeated measurements.


PS; Dominic, JVC models can be different per region(firmware issues) and models where some had oddities when adjusting settings. Ie adjusting 1 control might effect another section, dramatically in some cases/models.

Masterpiece Calibration Ltd
Christchurch NZ

Last edited by <^..^>Smokey Joe; 10-04-2015 at 04:45 PM.
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post #6679 of 7871 Old 10-06-2015, 06:51 PM
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Just hooked up a new i1 Display Pro to a Macbook Pro running Yosemite.

I cannot get HCFR to detect the device. It still only gives HCFR Probe, Virtual Sensor, Spyder 2 and Spyder 3 options.

Do I have to copy over some driver files to the HCFR directory like you have to do with Windows?
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post #6680 of 7871 Old 10-06-2015, 06:51 PM
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Just hooked up a new i1 Display Pro to a Macbook Pro running Yosemite.

I cannot get HCFR to detect the device. It still only gives HCFR Probe, Virtual Sensor, Spyder 2 and Spyder 3 options.

Do I have to copy over some driver files to the HCFR directory like you have to do with Windows?
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post #6681 of 7871 Old 10-06-2015, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
I cannot get HCFR to detect the device. It still only gives HCFR Probe, Virtual Sensor, Spyder 2 and Spyder 3
The Mac version of HCFR is quite old. I don't think it works with i1DP.
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post #6682 of 7871 Old 10-07-2015, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
I cannot get HCFR to detect the device. It still only gives HCFR Probe, Virtual Sensor, Spyder 2 and Spyder 3
The Mac version of HCFR is quite old. I don't think it works with i1DP.
Well that really sucks as I just bought the device and have no windows machines in the house.
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post #6683 of 7871 Old 10-07-2015, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
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post #6684 of 7871 Old 10-07-2015, 07:02 AM
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He still needs a Windows operating system (which, by the way, runs fine on a MacBook Pro).
I believe you can download and run a Windows operating system without a registration key for 30 days.
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post #6685 of 7871 Old 10-08-2015, 09:14 AM
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Hi, it's been a couple years since I calibrated a display with HCFR. I want to confirm a few details to make sure I have the correct setup of HCFR to calibrate my HTPC running Kodi on a Viewsonic Projector:

1) Install HCFR on laptop, plug in i1Display Pro, fire up HCFR.
2) Select New -> DVD/Manual -> Select i1 Display Pro sensor and "Do not use a meter correction file" -> Finish
3) Display Type: Projector (Marantz.. etc) -> Ok

Then follow the calibration guide.

Do I need to worry about drivers, external packages, correction files, etc after installing the latest HCFR? This is the same laptop I used previously to calibrate and my i1 Display Pro is detected in HCFR.
Do I need to worry about correction files? The drop down box is empty for me.
Do I need to worry about "Calibrate Meter" on the Argyll Meter Property Page? I remember doing something here before with a 30% pattern, but I can't quite remember if its helpful or required.
Are there any other non-default settings I should concern myself with in HCFR?
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post #6686 of 7871 Old 10-09-2015, 12:09 AM
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Okay guys... I am brand new to this, but really want to figure out how to use this program so I can help the people over in the EF9500 Owner's Thread on how bad the black flames on the sides of the TV are, as well as the yellow banding on this OLED flat 65" Panel.

I already burned the AVS HD disc and have been following the "Curtpalme.com" guide (this is the old one so a lot is outdated on it, but I was advised by the member fafrd to use this program and to purchase the i1display pro colorimeter ($230).

So I have been following everything it says in this thread, but there is a lot that I do not understand...

On this OLED, I want to do the following:

A) Check for uniformity issues
B) Check for how bad the Yellow banding is on a 100% white scale image
C) Calibrate 2pt white balance, contrast, OLED light, brightness, sharp, and gamma (the basic stuff for the most part)
D) Show the Owners over in the EF9500 Thread how bad the vinegetting (black flames on the side when the screen is playing in dark scenes like on the Dark Knight Rises when they're in the sewer or in the dark alley ways).

Okay so I dragged and dropped the i1display pro .dll file into the HCFR folder in Windows.

I went into HCFR and selected my meter (it auto populated).
Next, I made sure that it was shown to output blu-ray source 709 REC
I used OLED as the display type.
I clicked next until it got to the main screen.

In the tutorial it said to put up on a Calibration disc the one that is 100% white. The slide that is on this disc is a small 100% white box in the middle of a black screen. I used the AVS disc to place my meter in the dead center.

Next I started measurements using the xyY selected.

So in the calibration guide (the one for dummies) it says to keep a lookout on ftL value and keep moving the meter until you find the highest value.

This is the main problem I encountered with this initial step... The ftL value is ALLLLLL over the place.. It starts out at like 75 and then just keeps going down and down and down and down all the way down to about 8 and then it will just start going back up... so how am I supposed to get a consistent reading from this at all? It is all over the place and this is the first step in this whole calibration process.

I have a lot of patience so I'm really hoping someone can help guide me on this calibration journey... I not only want to get a nice looking picture, but also help out the EF9500 Owners on this new OLED technology thread like fafrd, who suggested I buy this meter and calibrate it and run these tests.

Please help.. I'm really trying to learn.

Thanks

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post #6687 of 7871 Old 10-09-2015, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
On this OLED, I want to do the following:
...snip...
Next I started measurements using the xyY selected.

So in the calibration guide (the one for dummies) it says to keep a lookout on ftL value and keep moving the meter until you find the highest value.

This is the main problem I encountered with this initial step... The ftL value is ALLLLLL over the place.. It starts out at like 75 and then just keeps going down and down and down and down all the way down to about 8 and then it will just start going back up... so how am I supposed to get a consistent reading from this at all? It is all over the place and this is the first step in this whole calibration process.
I wouldn't be surprised if your OLED does vary some across a white pattern but what it sounds like you're experiencing is the reduction in brightness when the pattern has been up there for a while. You've got to work a lot faster to get your measurements done before the display's circuitry thinks its been up too long and automatically dims it.

You might be able to trick it by putting up the menu screen periodically so the display doesn't think its a static image. Basically, it sees a difference in apl as changing content.
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post #6688 of 7871 Old 10-09-2015, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Okay so I dragged and dropped the i1display pro .dll file into the HCFR folder in Windows.
This is no longer necessary, that guide will give you good information for the calibration process but is outdated regarding hardware.

Quote:
This is the main problem I encountered with this initial step... The ftL value is ALLLLLL over the place.. It starts out at like 75 and then just keeps going down and down and down and down all the way down to about 8 and then it will just start going back up... so how am I supposed to get a consistent reading from this at all? It is all over the place and this is the first step in this whole calibration process.
OLEDs dim the output when it senses a static pattern for too long so you'll have to flip to another image and then back again to measure peak values. It will be extremely difficult to measure full screen uniformity on this display using a DVD as your source. It would be easier to learn to use your laptop to generate the patterns you need. I have added some code to defeat auto-dimming for repetitive patterns but I don't know how well it works yet. However, I would suggest you continue with the DVD source to learn the basics first before attempting some the advanced measurements you are after. Also, starting from scratch the way you are will require a very large time investment.
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post #6689 of 7871 Old 10-09-2015, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iStorm View Post

So in the calibration guide (the one for dummies) it says to keep a lookout on ftL value and keep moving the meter until you find the highest value.
That step is for front projectors only. For direct view displays just place it near the centre of screen and read away.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 10-09-2015 at 07:26 AM.
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post #6690 of 7871 Old 10-09-2015, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
On this OLED, I want to do the following:
...snip...
Next I started measurements using the xyY selected.

So in the calibration guide (the one for dummies) it says to keep a lookout on ftL value and keep moving the meter until you find the highest value.

This is the main problem I encountered with this initial step... The ftL value is ALLLLLL over the place.. It starts out at like 75 and then just keeps going down and down and down and down all the way down to about 8 and then it will just start going back up... so how am I supposed to get a consistent reading from this at all? It is all over the place and this is the first step in this whole calibration process.
I wouldn't be surprised if your OLED does vary some across a white pattern but what it sounds like you're experiencing is the reduction in brightness when the pattern has been up there for a while. You've got to work a lot faster to get your measurements done before the display's circuitry thinks its been up too long and automatically dims it.

You might be able to trick it by putting up the menu screen periodically so the display doesn't think its a static image. Basically, it sees a difference in apl as changing content.
Would it be dimming that fast though? Do I just need to just take the very first value I see? After just a few minutes it will have gone doend from 75 to 18 ftl. Do I even need to worry about ftl? Can I just focus on the Y value? That seems to stay pretty consistent.
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Okay so I dragged and dropped the i1display pro .dll file into the HCFR folder in Windows.
This is no longer necessary, that guide will give you good information for the calibration process but is outdated regarding hardware.

Quote:
This is the main problem I encountered with this initial step... The ftL value is ALLLLLL over the place.. It starts out at like 75 and then just keeps going down and down and down and down all the way down to about 8 and then it will just start going back up... so how am I supposed to get a consistent reading from this at all? It is all over the place and this is the first step in this whole calibration process.
OLEDs dim the output when it senses a static pattern for too long so you'll have to flip to another image and then back again to measure peak values. It will be extremely difficult to measure full screen uniformity on this display using a DVD as your source. It would be easier to learn to use your laptop to generate the patterns you need. I have added some code to defeat auto-dimming for repetitive patterns but I don't know how well it works yet. However, I would suggest you continue with the DVD source to learn the basics first before attempting some the advanced measurements you are after. Also, starting from scratch the way you are will require a very large time investment.
Would spending $300 on calman control software be more beneficial for someone who doesn't have a lot of time for this? Is that software easier to run? I was advised by fafrd in the ef9500 oled thread to get this meter and download the AVS HD disc or another disc.

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStorm View Post

So in the calibration guide (the one for dummies) it says to keep a lookout on ftL value and keep moving the meter until you find the highest value.
That step is probably for projectors. For direct view displays just place it near the centre of screen and read away.
Great! I didn't really move it. I was concerned about how the values were all over the place fluctuating.
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