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Old 05-05-2016, 08:31 AM
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Aha, well I'm doing it again, I don't seem to have the option for 100 point test, I have 4/10/20 I believe it was. Sometimes I feel like I'm doing something wrong because the test results seem to be very good? Will upload the new pictures in a moment.

Pre Edit: I just input 100 and went with it! Here the 100 and 20 point results, 100 for fun :3. Contrast Ratio for the display seems to shift a bit though, yesterday I was recording around 2400~, today it's in the early 2500's... I let the display and ColorMunki warm up for 3 hours or so.
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Old 05-05-2016, 01:58 PM
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Is there a way throw hcfr to output hdr test patterns via madvr? My plan is to emulate hdr and calibrate or at least try to get the best result from my tv that doesn't support hdr but can reach 416nits at maximum brightness level.
In my mind and only throw madvr that i will set it to 400nits in its nit setting i will raise everything up to 400nits and then i will try to calibrate in hcfr with dcip3 or rec2020 but to achieve this i need hdr test patterns or support from hcfr natively for hdr.
Is there any other way to test this?
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Old 05-05-2016, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
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If you want to calibrate your display to produce an HDR type transfer function (either ST.2084 or the BBC hybrid-log) you can do that with the currently available patterns and target settings using any of the generators. What HCFR does not support is triggering a display to go into an HDR mode (if it has one) via metadata.

Last edited by zoyd; 05-06-2016 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 05-06-2016, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
If you want to calibrate your display to produce an HDR type transfer function (either ST.2084 or the BBC hybrid-log) you can do that with the currently available patterns and target settings using any of the generators. What HCFR does not support is triggering a display to go into an HDR mode (if it has one) via metadata.
zoyd, do you know if MADTPG will eventually get HDR metadata support? I Have an LG EF that needs this to enable HDR mode.


I also have a couple of questions on HCFR and Gamma, is there a way to extend the gamma diagram scale to include 0 and 100% gamma as currently the scale is 5-95% of white?


When reading live measures to tweak gamma, I find 80% white gamma and above slowly drifts when using live measures, either up or down on the diagram, so i'm currently having to run a full 20pt GS every 5% above 80% white, when adjusting top end gamma to check and get stable results eg 80, 85, 90 etc...
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Old 05-06-2016, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
What HCFR does not support is triggering a display to go into an HDR mode (if it has one) via metadata.


Do you plan on bringing that function?

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Old 05-06-2016, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
If you want to calibrate your display to produce an HDR type transfer function (either ST.2084 or the BBC hybrid-log) you can do that with the currently available patterns and target settings using any of the generators. What HCFR does not support is triggering a display to go into an HDR mode (if it has one) via metadata.
You missed my point. I don't have hdr capable tv but i need hdr mkv test patterns and i don't know where to find them. I wanna try to do fake hdr by raising my brightness sky high and try to calibrate throw madvr that can convert hdr mkv to a specific maximum nit setting that madvr has it from 120nits to 10000 and in my tv i will try that at 350 to 400nits.
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Old 05-06-2016, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post
I also have a couple of questions on HCFR and Gamma, is there a way to extend the gamma diagram scale to include 0 and 100% gamma as currently the scale is 5-95% of white?
The gamma value is undefined at the two end points, so the gamma curve always excludes the end points.
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Old 05-07-2016, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post
zoyd, do you know if MADTPG will eventually get HDR metadata support? I Have an LG EF that needs this to enable HDR mode.
That's a question for @madshi , I don't know.

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Do you plan on bringing that function?
At the moment no, I have no idea what's required to do it - are there video cards available now that can send the correct HDMI protocol?


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You missed my point. I don't have hdr capable tv but i need hdr mkv test patterns and i don't know where to find them.
I understood what you were asking and the answer is you don't need "hdr mkv test patterns", standard patterns will do what you want. You send the display the typical RGB values for grayscale and color alignment and then see if you can adjust it to the HDR target values. Once you have done that adjustment, then you will need HDR mastered material to see how it looks.
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Old 05-07-2016, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post


At the moment no, I have no idea what's required to do it - are there video cards available now that can send the correct HDMI protocol?
Attached is the guide that Vizio posted for now. Linked is the Golden Reference Files from Vizio. Everything is considered beta at the moment with these reference files and with the CalMAN software that supports it.

The link is the patterns that put the display into HDR mode for reading the patterns(10%) and making the adjustments. This is for Dolby Vision HDR not HDR10.

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...rence.dvgr.zip
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Old 05-07-2016, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It's Measures->Parameters. You can even do a 100pt
It would be nice if HCFR can retain the current measurement results when changing the number of measurement point. A feature request for zoyd?
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Old 05-07-2016, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It would be nice if HCFR can retain the current measurement results when changing the number of measurement point. A feature request for zoyd?
If it was retained the software could only average by guesstimate what the in between 5% reasons would be... Going from a lower number of points to a higher number of reading points.

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Old 05-07-2016, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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If it was retained the software could only average by guesstimate what the in between 5% reasons would be... Going from a lower number of points to a higher number of reading points.
What he wants is that points that have already been measured be populated in the new sampling grid. I will add this to the list.
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Old 05-07-2016, 06:58 PM
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What he wants is that points that have already been measured be populated in the new sampling grid. I will add this to the list.
I get that, but then what happens to the lines between? They just get averaged meaning you'll still maintain the same line in between measuring points?

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Old 05-07-2016, 07:32 PM
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What he wants is that points that have already been measured be populated in the new sampling grid. I will add this to the list.
Yes, that's the main reason for the request. Most of the time I find 10 points to be quite adequate, but want to have an extra point or 2 in the low end, especially when using BT.1886.

Most JVC projectors have 12 points between 0 and 100 - 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95. They can benefit from this feature.

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Old 05-08-2016, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
That's a question for @madshi, I don't know.
Last I read Madshi was looking at HDR implementation back in December, i'll need to research more to see how far this has been looked at.

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At the moment no, I have no idea what's required to do it - are there video cards available now that can send the correct HDMI protocol?
I don't know yet, I have 2 forms of output on my HTPC - an Intel 530 (6700 CPU) HDMI and a second onboard HDMI 4k hdcp2.0 rated output (converting the intel video to conform) to research, I have found so far that 3D fury do a device called Integral that has the ability to inject "HDR metadata" for non compliant sources and kicks the display into HDR mode, I don't see any form of internal patterns but 4k patterns should be easily passed through and combined with the metadata.
https://www.hdfury.com/shop/splitter...60-444-600mhz/

I presume with the new gamma 2084 setting addition, HCFR can now sent 4k patterns via madtpg? I did touch on some posts recently in this thread referring to 4K calibration, i'll need to look back a bit and read into it further.


Thanks zoyd, Dominic Chan,
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Old 05-11-2016, 07:06 PM
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Hi everyone...

Finally having another go at calibrating my Sharp Aquos Quattron Pro LC60LE960 with my X-Rite ColorMunki Display to Rec 709, but I am finding that the greyscale patterns that I am using (HCFR 5% increments) do not match up to the levels being checked.

My Sharp has a 10-point scale ranging from position 1 to position 10 (presumably 10% to 100%), and 0-30% seem to adjust fine... but when I get prompted to display the 40% greyscale, I find that changing the RGB values have very little effect, and I have to launch the 45% greyscale pattern to see much variance. This imbalance goes all the way up to the top, where I have to launch the 109% white pattern for the ColorMunki to detect any changes when calibrating "100%".

Are there any ideas on what might be causing this? Could my contrast or backlight be too high (contrast and brightness were calibrated already and looked right), or perhaps have I got wrong settings in HCFR (0-255 instead of 16-235 or something?).


Also, the calibrated white balance leaves a yellowish-greenish tinge that I just don't like and doesn't look natural. While my curve looks ok (I have attached the HCFR file of my calibrated results), I just don't like that shade of white and how it affects other colours. I see HCFR has some options for changing white under Rec 709, but I am not sure what the options mean (D50 - D93, plus Illuminant or DCI options?). Ultimately I would just prefer a brighter/cooler white, but don't want to blindly fiddle with the values which may just result in another imbalance. Or could the appearance of this green/yellow tinge be due to incorrect colours (as you can likely see from my attached results, they are a fair bit off).

Thanks in advance for any tips... I feel I need to understand these WB issues before going any further.


EDIT: Note that the above calibrations were to D65. I see that the D75 and D93 inbuilt options are temps used in certain regions around the world, so going to try D75 to see if it appears more natural to me... I know its not the industry standard, but I doubt there is anyone who would look at my TV and say those D65 whites look natural.
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Old 05-12-2016, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Clemery76 View Post
Are there any ideas on what might be causing this? Could my contrast or backlight be too high (contrast and brightness were calibrated already and looked right), or perhaps have I got wrong settings in HCFR (0-255 instead of 16-235 or something?).
You may have to reset the contrast setting to minimize the "control displacement" problem.

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Also, the calibrated white balance leaves a yellowish-greenish tinge that I just don't like and doesn't look natural. While my curve looks ok (I have attached the HCFR file of my calibrated results)
The luminance curves (attached) do show an excess of green and deficit of blue at the top end; which may be contributing to the yellowish-greenish tinge.
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Old 05-13-2016, 12:07 AM
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You may have to reset the contrast setting to minimize the "control displacement" problem.
The luminance curves (attached) do show an excess of green and deficit of blue at the top end; which may be contributing to the yellowish-greenish tinge.
Thanks Dominic...

Firstly, I am not sure what happened with the previous measurements, since I played around last night and had much better success at detecting changes at the appropriate white values. I also measured 100% at various contrasts to see if it affected the variance of the change when maxing out each colour individually, and it was pretty minimal. Similarly with backlight, I found that different backlight levels didn't affect the range of variance either.

Out of curiosity, I changed the HCFR prefs to D75, and found the measurements came out pretty good this time. I have attached the results, and while this was just a test to see the difference, the curve is mostly great. The deficiency of green at the top is unchangeable since green was maxed out at that level.

Alas, the resultant image (with colours calibrated visually via flashing colour bars, but not calibrated via HCFR yet) still doesn't look right. The green tinge has reduced but is still there, and it still feels predominantly yellow and hot. and the oranges/reds in skintones look so overpowering. And strangely Cyan looks so washed out on the colours bars, so much more of a bright sky blue.

What's interesting to note is that at my green values at each point of the 10-point scale are either maxed out or nearly maxed, while blue is typically at its lowest level of -30, which obviously is causing the green tinge, but I am not sure why it appears so off, and I am wondering about the possibility of my coloromiter (X-Rite ColorMunki Display) being faulty or requiring calibration itself (although HCFR says no calibrations are needed when I click the button), and perhaps it just misreads green. It really does seem strange and unique that I am having such an issue with this. I have included the values at each step of my 10-point scale, to give an idea of what it took to achieve that D75 curve!

Cheers!
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Old 05-13-2016, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Clemery76 View Post
Out of curiosity, I changed the HCFR prefs to D75, and found the measurements came out pretty good this time. I have attached the results, and while this was just a test to see the difference, the curve is mostly great. The deficiency of green at the top is unchangeable since green was maxed out at that level.
Which colour temperature preset in the TV did you choose? In most cases the Warm settings are closer to D65.

Quote:
Alas, the resultant image (with colours calibrated visually via flashing colour bars, but not calibrated via HCFR yet) still doesn't look right. The green tinge has reduced but is still there, and it still feels predominantly yellow and hot. and the oranges/reds in skintones look so overpowering. And strangely Cyan looks so washed out on the colours bars, so much more of a bright sky blue.
You may need to change the CMS settings for those.

Quote:
What's interesting to note is that at my green values at each point of the 10-point scale are either maxed out or nearly maxed, while blue is typically at its lowest level of -30, which obviously is causing the green tinge
You should try a different colour temperature preset, and also use the 2-pt control to bring the grey scale close to the target, before using the 10-pt controls.
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Old 05-14-2016, 05:09 AM
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Which colour temperature preset in the TV did you choose? In most cases the Warm settings are closer to D65.
You may need to change the CMS settings for those.
You should try a different colour temperature preset, and also use the 2-pt control to bring the grey scale close to the target, before using the 10-pt controls.
A couple of things there... I always choose the lowest preset temperature before trying to calibrate. It seems with my TV that the 2-point and 10-point scale are different, in that I have to switch between using the 2-point or 10-point, and after adjusting the 2-point and turning on the 10-point, the results return to their default values, which to me indicate that they are separate.

But after another late night of experimentation and learning (I tried out D93 this time), it seems that brightness had the biggest effect. The green excess/blue deficit at the 100% measurement was brought into line by reducing the brightness, although still not perfect. I decided to calibrate each step again with reduced brightness, but I found I had to reduce it to nearly its lowest level in order to achieve a nice thin and accurate curve (with slight variance at the top end), and naturally this results in a very dark picture with a lot of visible crush. Clearly light is my problem, but I'm not really sure how to fix it.

That said, I upped the brightness to what I thought looked visually pleasing, and I can at least say that the results are already astonishing, with much nicer shadows and even colours (even just by getting the greyscale ino line)... and for the first time since I bought my TV last year, I am actually happy with it. Although this was only in my test mode of Standard (hence why I was playing around with D93), I am at least confident that I can find success calibrating Movie mode to D65.

I really just need to wrap my head around light output and how to optimise the balance of brightness, contrast and backlight. Backlight affected the gamma line dramatically, but found that this setting needed to change as I made slight changes to brightness.

In any case... thanks for the advice. I'll be aiming for D65 soon.
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Old 05-14-2016, 07:08 AM
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But after another late night of experimentation and learning (I tried out D93 this time), it seems that brightness had the biggest effect. The green excess/blue deficit at the 100% measurement was brought into line by reducing the brightness, although still not perfect.
That's very unusual. The Brightness control is used to set the black level, and shouldn't have a major effect on 100%. Are you changing only one parameter at at time? Do you have the "before/after" plots; i.e., with only Brightness setting changed and nothing else?

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Backlight affected the gamma line dramatically
Again, that's very unusual. Backlight should affect primarily the overall luminance and not the gamma. After adjusting the Backlight, did you actually re-run the entire sweep (0 to 100%) to see the effect on gamma?
I would suggest first using Backlight to set the luminance at 100%, and then adjust the Brightness to set the black point. There are some interactions between the two and with the Contrast setting, but it shouldn't require too many iterations to get both "right".
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Old 05-15-2016, 08:13 PM
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That's very unusual.

Yeah... you're telling me! This process seems to be unnecessarily confusing for me, and bringing me back to the level of insanity that drove me away from continuing it last year. But I certainly feel more confident in my understanding of the process and things to note and look out for.


I am still overall happy with the results from the D93 on Standard mode testing, so I was motivated to try and get Movie mode to D65. This is where I found the results quite interesting, but still confusing... my key findings were:


- The combination of backlight/contrast/brightness all affected the gamma line. Backlight the most, but subsequent tweaks to contract and brightness (after calibrating visually using the clipping patterns) definitely had an effect.


- Movie mode has two options for colour gamut... standard or expanded. I found that with Standard, I was unable to get the contrast high enough to even approach the reference value. With Expanded, I can get the contrast exactly to 235 (or one notch lower which I usually do). This is the only mode that has the colour gamut option.


- Given the above, using the Standard gamut was the only way I could achieve 35ftL, but at the cost of too low contrast, while using the Expanded gamut I get a nice contrast, but cannot get below 60ftL in this mode.


- At 35ftL, my greyscale levels don't read accurately. i.e. with contrast/brightness set visually, backlight reduced until it measured 35ftL... when displaying the 100% white pattern at 35ftL, I have to adjust point-8 to detect any readings, with any adjustments to point-10 not reading at all. By enabling Expanded gamut and 100% white displaying at 61ftL, I find that I can then adjust point-10 properly at 100%, yet I can still alter the point-9 values and detect changes on the 100% pattern at this level.




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Are you changing only one parameter at at time? Do you have the "before/after" plots; i.e., with only Brightness setting changed and nothing else? After adjusting the Backlight, did you actually re-run the entire sweep (0 to 100%) to see the effect on gamma?

Yep... I would run the whole sweep from 0-100 after every minute change, so I would run a full sweep after, say, increasing the backlight one level, then run another full sweep after altering the brightness one notch to see how it affected the new backlight results (for example). I was doing this more out of curiosity to try and get an understanding of how it all worked.




I feel like I am totally going crazy at this point!

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Old 05-15-2016, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Clemery76 View Post
Yep... I would run the whole sweep from 0-100 after every minute change, so I would run a full sweep after, say, increasing the backlight one level, then run another full sweep after altering the brightness one notch to see how it affected the new backlight results (for example). I was doing this more out of curiosity to try and get an understanding of how it all worked.
Did you save those runs? I would be interested in seeing how the TV responds to the change in backlight.
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Old 05-15-2016, 09:43 PM
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Sadly not... as I was expecting to finally get that magical balance but never actually did.




I will do some similar testing this week and post a few results.


One other thing that I should mention is that I am using a Sharp Aquos Quattron Pro, which is actually a RGBY set, employing (advertising) the use of a yellow sub-pixel alongside the RGB ones... and I am strongly starting to feel that the majority of my problems are linked to this.
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Old 05-16-2016, 12:20 PM
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@zoyd or anyone,
Is there a way to measure Gamut Coverage % with HCFR?

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Old 05-16-2016, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Is there a way to measure Gamut Coverage % with HCFR?
No there isn't and I've seen someone else ask for this too. How would you make use of this calculation for calibration purposes?
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Old 05-16-2016, 01:47 PM
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No there isn't and I've seen someone else ask for this too. How would you make use of this calculation for calibration purposes?
Yea but it's a bigger deal for HDR since most now are advertising % of DCI - P3 capable. Mostly is an informational thing because every panel will be capable of a little different %.

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Old 05-16-2016, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think it's useful information, most display technologies are very similar in this respect. If a particular display gets you 98% of P3 instead of 95% would that lead you to buy it?
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Old 05-16-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I don't think it's useful information, most display technologies are very similar in this respect. If a particular display gets you 98% of P3 instead of 95% would that lead you to buy it?
It would depend on other things. It's just a way to measure our panel to see what is capable of. The same TV could give different results panel to panel. It's useful for those that want to know. If like to see HDR support first anyways.

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Old 05-16-2016, 04:10 PM
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Yea but it's a bigger deal for HDR since most now are advertising % of DCI - P3 capable.
Most such numbers are complete rubbish - they are computing 2D area's in the highly perceptually non-linear x,y space.

An actual color gamut is 3D, and to have any meaning, the volume comparison should be done in perceptual units.
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