HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 258 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7711 of 7740 Old 07-19-2016, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
This web page describes the differences:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_difference

I use CIE DE2000.

There is also a short answer under the FAQ section of the first post.
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post #7712 of 7740 Old 07-19-2016, 07:00 AM
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post #7713 of 7740 Old 07-19-2016, 03:29 PM
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Here is my new gray scale. It was auto dimming. This is the sweep I did after changing all the 20 points to .02 DE or less. Looks like Ill have to do it again tomorrow. It auto dims really fast did not notice it yesterday. Thanks for the help
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File Type: zip grayscale20b.zip (45.9 KB, 7 views)
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post #7714 of 7740 Old 07-20-2016, 07:05 AM
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Is Chromapure "better suited to today's displays" than HCFR?

Hi, I'm relatively new to HCFR and just purchased an i1Display Pro to calibrate my new TV (Samsung KS7005). Several years ago I calibrated a Panasonic plasma using HFCR and i1Display 2 by following kal's GREYSCALE & COLOUR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES guide. In preparation for my upcoming calibration, I came across the new version of that guide, CHROMAPURE GRAYSCALE & COLOR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES. That guide is based on ChromaPure, which allegedly "is better suited for today's advanced displays". Is there any truth to that, or is it simply a statement for selling ChromaPure? I don't want to shell out $100-200 for ChromaPure if I can achieve similar results using HCFR (I'm not THAT picky about accuracy - I don't want absolute, professional perfection, I'm just a normal guy interested in getting the most out of his new TV, and concerned about getting completely wonky results due to not understanding all of the advanced options in HCFR).

Another unrelated question: How does the "backlight" setting on many TVs factor into the brightness/contrast calibration?

Last edited by MiSP; 07-21-2016 at 09:57 AM.
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post #7715 of 7740 Old 07-20-2016, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiSP View Post
That guide is based on ChromaPure, which allegedly "is better suited for today's advanced displays". Is there any truth to that, or is it simply a statement for selling ChromaPure? I don't want to shell out $100-200 for ChromaPure if I can achieve similar results using HCFR.
Accuracy is typically limited by the meter, not by the calibration software. Since you have already used HCFR previoiusly, I would suggest that you first use the latest version (currently 3.4.2) to calibrate your TV, and then look through the ChromaPure 3 User Manual to see if any of its advanced features (e.g., automatic calibration) are important to you.

Quote:
How does the "backlight" setting on many TVs factor into the brightness/contrast calibration?
The Backlight control is used to set the luminance level. This is preferred over using the Contrast control as the latter will reduce the contrast ratio.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-20-2016 at 08:10 AM.
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post #7716 of 7740 Old 07-21-2016, 12:18 PM
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So the Curtpalme - Calibration Guide for Dummies is still a good starting point for someone who has not used HCFR ? For my 1Display pro how close should I get it to the screen for my projector, his guide says around 3 inches for a different meter. I am assuming I should avoid any hot spots on the screen as well.
Edit: Also saw this post ,

"After you pick the meter it will go to the config page on which you have the choice of CRT/LCD and contact/projector, not all meters care about all these settings, the i1 needs the CRT/LCD and the colormunki photo needs the contact/projector one."

Is this still true or should I pick projector when using my 1Display Pro?

Edit2: Also should I disable my dynamic iris for all these measurements? Anything else I should remove (I have all DNR type tihngs turned off already)?

Last edited by grendelrt; 07-21-2016 at 01:18 PM.
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post #7717 of 7740 Old 07-21-2016, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Accuracy is typically limited by the meter, not by the calibration software. Since you have already used HCFR previoiusly, I would suggest that you first use the latest version (currently 3.4.2) to calibrate your TV, and then look through the ChromaPure 3 User Manual to see if any of its advanced features (e.g., automatic calibration) are important to you.
I read through the ChromaPure user manual, but I couldn't really find any features that suggested I would lose out on significant results by using HCFR instead. On the ChromaPure website, they say that ChromaPure together with their custom version of i1Display Pro provides more meter profiles which will get you more accurate results, though this seems to be related to the meter and not ChromaPure. ChromaPure's main selling point on its own seems to be a more user-friendly layout and workflow, though I'm sufficiently comfortable with HCFR that ChromaPure would not be worth it for me in this regard.

The actual ChromaPure grayscale calibration guide lists "advanced grayscale, gamma, and color calibration tools"as an advantage over HCFR, though it doesn't seem to offer anything more in these regards besides user friendliness.
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post #7718 of 7740 Old 07-21-2016, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiSP View Post
The actual ChromaPure grayscale calibration guide lists "advanced grayscale, gamma, and color calibration tools"as an advantage over HCFR, though it doesn't seem to offer anything more in these regards besides user friendliness.
Are you referring to the Curtpalme ChromaPure Dummy's Guide, or ChromaPure's own user manual? I haven't seen any reference to HCFR in either.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-21-2016 at 06:41 PM.
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post #7719 of 7740 Old 07-22-2016, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Are you referring to the Curtpalme ChromaPure Dummy's Guide, or ChromaPure's own user manual? I haven't seen any reference to HCFR in either.
The guide. It says "ChromaPure offers the following advantages over the software used in our previous guide", which was HCFR.
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post #7720 of 7740 Old 07-22-2016, 12:32 AM
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Possible bug in HCFR

Windows complains on login that there's a file called "C:\Program". It seems to be created by HCFR. I suppose this is just due to missing quotation marks around "C:\Program Files\HCFR" etc.

The file is attached for reference (.txt extension added by me to allow upload).
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File Type: txt Program.txt (9.7 KB, 9 views)
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post #7721 of 7740 Old 07-22-2016, 07:49 AM
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So before I get started with a full calibration I just want to make sure I have everything set correctly. I tried a couple different configs and would like an opinion on which one you guys think is the most correct to use. The configs are

1) display type: none, reading type: Display and Observer type: default with the auto iris turned off on my projector. I did this one by accident , forgot to set display, but its good to see what kind of impact the display type has.
2) display type: Projector, reading type: Display and Observer type: default with the auto iris turned off on my projector.
3) display type: Projector, reading type: Display and Observer type: default with the auto iris turned to limited on my projector (my normal use in the room).
After Edit:
4) display type: Projector, reading type: Display and Observer type: default with the auto iris turned off on my projector, gamma curve 2.4 used in projector settings
5) display type: Projector, reading type: Display and Observer type: default with the auto iris turned off on my projector, gamma curve 2.6 used in projector settings

The gray scale was actually pretty good I think for 2 and 3, especially as a starting point. Gamma line looks way off though, shouldn't it be near 2.2? Which one should I use to follow through on my calibration? I have attached all 3 files, please let me know if there is something else I can provide to help. Thanks!!!

Edit:Tried using some gamma curves that the projector has to fix the gamma line, added them below to the files. Using 2.6 curve seems to get me an average of 2.2 over the range and close to the HFCR refrence line if i change the hcfr view setting to "gamma with black compensation". Also I am using GCD patterns with the AVS 709 disk is this correct?I am guessing this is due to my short throw distance and small screen making the picture too bright (31ftl iris off/22 iris on (normal viewing)? Or is something else throwing the gamma curve off a lot?

Harware/Software:
Sony HW55ES Projector
1Display Pro
AVS HD709 Disk - Used 11 point from HFCR APL Patterns area
Samsung Blu Ray player set to YCBCR444
Attached Files
File Type: zip Calibrations.zip (6.3 KB, 3 views)
File Type: zip Calibrations wGamma.zip (2.1 KB, 3 views)

Last edited by grendelrt; 07-22-2016 at 12:10 PM.
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post #7722 of 7740 Old 07-22-2016, 11:23 AM
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I had recently a problem where when my screen was black it looked like dark grey, this was happening only in isf bright mode i had calibrated.
I just found what was causing it.
It was the blue rgb in 2 point IRE!
I had to leave it at 0 and fully adjust it in 20 point IRE and now when my screen is black it looks like it's turned off.

Does anyone know why the blue rgb would cause such a problem and only in 2 point IRE?
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post #7723 of 7740 Old 07-22-2016, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OledGod View Post
Does anyone know why the blue rgb would cause such a problem and only in 2 point IRE?
The Bias or Offset controls for 2-point calibration are essentially RGB versions of the Brightness Control. One "rule of thumb" is that they should only be lowered (where necessary to get neutral grey), not raised.
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post #7724 of 7740 Old 07-22-2016, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
So before I get started with a full calibration I just want to make sure I have everything set correctly. I tried a couple different configs and would like an opinion on which one you guys think is the most correct to use. The configs are

1) display type: none, reading type: Display and Observer type: default with the auto iris turned off on my projector. I did this one by accident , forgot to set display, but its good to see what kind of impact the display type has.
2) display type: Projector, reading type: Display and Observer type: default with the auto iris turned off on my projector.
3) display type: Projector, reading type: Display and Observer type: default with the auto iris turned to limited on my projector (my normal use in the room).
After Edit:
4) display type: Projector, reading type: Display and Observer type: default with the auto iris turned off on my projector, gamma curve 2.4 used in projector settings
5) display type: Projector, reading type: Display and Observer type: default with the auto iris turned off on my projector, gamma curve 2.6 used in projector settings

The gray scale was actually pretty good I think for 2 and 3, especially as a starting point. Gamma line looks way off though, shouldn't it be near 2.2? Which one should I use to follow through on my calibration? I have attached all 3 files, please let me know if there is something else I can provide to help. Thanks!!!

Edit:Tried using some gamma curves that the projector has to fix the gamma line, added them below to the files. Using 2.6 curve seems to get me an average of 2.2 over the range and close to the HFCR refrence line if i change the hcfr view setting to "gamma with black compensation". Also I am using GCD patterns with the AVS 709 disk is this correct?I am guessing this is due to my short throw distance and small screen making the picture too bright (31ftl iris off/22 iris on (normal viewing)? Or is something else throwing the gamma curve off a lot?

Harware/Software:
Sony HW55ES Projector
1Display Pro
AVS HD709 Disk - Used 11 point from HFCR APL Patterns area
Samsung Blu Ray player set to YCBCR444
So I tried doing a calibration based on my best assumptions. I ended up changing the gamma option to 2.6 on the projector, turned off the iris and limited it down to around 18ftl manually. I adjusted the grayscale based on the gain and bias of 30%ire and 80%ire. I was sure how to adjust using the real color pro options after that though. There are 3 options for the pimary and secondary colors, color, hue, and brightness, I dont know which ones are which to use in the greyscale tutorial in the OP. I feel like the picture has too much red push to it, its noticeable when I switch from the reference setting to my user setting I created (which is based off reference as a base). The grayscale , luminance and RGB levels I think look pretty good. The gamma and CIE I feel like need some work.
Attached Thumbnails
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Attached Files
File Type: zip FIrst Calibration.zip (26.3 KB, 4 views)
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post #7725 of 7740 Old 07-22-2016, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
There are 3 options for the pimary and secondary colors, color, hue, and brightness, I dont know which ones are which to use in the greyscale tutorial in the OP.
These controls are used for adjusting the primary and secondary colours, not for adjusting the grey scale.

Quote:
The gamma and CIE I feel like need some work.
You need to use the 10 point controls to adjust the gamma.
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post #7726 of 7740 Old 07-22-2016, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
These controls are used for adjusting the primary and secondary colours, not for adjusting the grey scale.
Oh yeah i get that, i just don't understand which ones need to be adjusted based on that tutorial to match his definitions for adjust the primary and secondary. I am probably just using the wrong terminology sorry.

Quote:
You need to use the 10 point controls to adjust the gamma.
So I did the adjust first with gain and bias under custom color to get 100% on each color like the tutorial for red , green , and blue, then I am supposed to do it with 10 point next for primary and secondary correct? He refers to the adjustments as Lightness, Hue, and Saturation. My adjustments are labeled under 10 point as color, hue, and brightness, so is Lightness = Brightness, Hue = Hue, and Saturation = Color?

Last edited by grendelrt; 07-22-2016 at 09:02 PM.
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post #7727 of 7740 Old Yesterday, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The Bias or Offset controls for 2-point calibration are essentially RGB versions of the Brightness Control. One "rule of thumb" is that they should only be lowered (where necessary to get neutral grey), not raised.
By saying bias or offset you mean the rgb controls?
I dont see any settings with those names in my c6 tv and i just want to make sure.

By the way in 2 point ire i only have the red raised 1 number up in low and 2 numbers up in high.
I tested in other modes the red by raising it all the way to 50 on both high and low and it looks only the blue color affects the black screen.
I haven't tested the green though.
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post #7728 of 7740 Old Yesterday, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OledGod View Post
By saying bias or offset you mean the rgb controls?
"RGB Bias" and "RGB Offset" are simply alternative names for "RGB Low" for 2-point control.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; Yesterday at 07:48 AM.
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post #7729 of 7740 Old Yesterday, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
So I tried doing a calibration based on my best assumptions. I ended up changing the gamma option to 2.6 on the projector, turned off the iris and limited it down to around 18ftl manually. I adjusted the grayscale based on the gain and bias of 30%ire and 80%ire. I was sure how to adjust using the real color pro options after that though. There are 3 options for the pimary and secondary colors, color, hue, and brightness, I dont know which ones are which to use in the greyscale tutorial in the OP. I feel like the picture has too much red push to it, its noticeable when I switch from the reference setting to my user setting I created (which is based off reference as a base). The grayscale , luminance and RGB levels I think look pretty good. The gamma and CIE I feel like need some work.
You should be getting much better black levels and gamut coverage so you should concentrate first on proper set-up. This review will give you an idea of what you are shooting for. You may have mismatched levels or some other incorrect setting so getting some advice from someone who has worked with this projector would save you alot of time. Also, the setting for BT.1886 should not be 2.2, start with the default [0] to get a standard BT.1886 after fixing your black level.
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post #7730 of 7740 Old Yesterday, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
You should be getting much better black levels and gamut coverage so you should concentrate first on proper set-up. This review will give you an idea of what you are shooting for. You may have mismatched levels or some other incorrect setting so getting some advice from someone who has worked with this projector would save you alot of time. Also, the setting for BT.1886 should not be 2.2, start with the default [0] to get a standard BT.1886 after fixing your black level.
Thanks , I actually had that review and a couple others yesterday up while i was doing readings. I feel like you are correct that something isn't set up correctly. What steps could I take to try and narrow down what is wrong with my set up? For HFCR the only things i have set are Manual for test patterns, then display type: Projector, reading type: Display and Observer type: Default, and GCD patterns in advanced. For the patterns I am using AVS HD709 Disk - Used 11 point from HFCR APL Patterns area LARGE. I tried the same patterns on my HTPC vs Blu ray and got similiar results , so the sources look the same at least. Could it be a driver issue with the 1Display or another setting I need to set in HFCR?
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post #7731 of 7740 Old Yesterday, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Could it be a driver issue with the 1Display or another setting I need to set in HFCR?
No, it won't be the probe display type or driver. If you use HCFR's pattern generator the only setting that matters is the level range and that depends on your video card set-up. With DVD playback this setting doesn't matter, the only thing that matters there is your player output range setting and projector input range setting (usually YCbCr will be handled automatically). I'd concentrate on getting the expected black and peak white values first. Getting the deepest blacks requires a blacked out room, what does the probe measure with the projector off? This will be your black floor and needs to be close to 0.
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post #7732 of 7740 Old Yesterday, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
No, it won't be the probe display type or driver. If you use HCFR's pattern generator the only setting that matters is the level range and that depends on your video card set-up. With DVD playback this setting doesn't matter, the only thing that matters there is your player output range setting and projector input range setting (usually YCbCr will be handled automatically). I'd concentrate on getting the expected black and peak white values first. Getting the deepest blacks requires a blacked out room, what does the probe measure with the projector off? This will be your black floor and needs to be close to 0.
OK I will give that a try, it is a light controlled room, so it was pitch black other than the projector and laptop being on. So look for a 0 value with projector off, is there something I should look for on the 100IRE White block?
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post #7733 of 7740 Old Yesterday, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
OK I will give that a try, it is a light controlled room, so it was pitch black other than the projector and laptop being on. So look for a 0 value with projector off, is there something I should look for on the 100IRE White block?
Figure out if the high black is room contamination first. If it is then you'll have to figure out how to get it darker or baffle your measurements. If it isn't then you'll have to figure out equipment settings to get level ranges matched.
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post #7734 of 7740 Old Yesterday, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Figure out if the high black is room contamination first. If it is then you'll have to figure out how to get it darker or baffle your measurements. If it isn't then you'll have to figure out equipment settings to get level ranges matched.
Ok will do , thanks!
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post #7735 of 7740 Old Yesterday, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok will do , thanks!
[Sorry, projector should be on, but block the lens somewhere prior the screen so no direct light falls on it.]
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post #7736 of 7740 Old Today, 05:04 AM
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I recently after i calibrated my isf expert mode with hcfr, i then went on to use displaycal to further calibrate it and create an icc profile.
When i measure the results in hcfr they were exactly the same as before i used displaycal.
I then used displaycal to calibrate the game mode of the c6 tv as it's missing the rgb controls. The difference in picture quality was huge after i used displaycal but then when i went to see how much better the de, the gamma, the rgb levels were in hcfr i was surprised to see they were exactly the same like before.
Can someone tell my why this is happening or if there's a step i forgot to take?
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post #7737 of 7740 Old Today, 05:51 AM
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Can someone tell my why this is happening or if there's a step i forgot to take?
HCFR disables the icc profile and its associated LUT, so you cannot directly compare its measurements with from from displaycal.
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post #7738 of 7740 Old Today, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
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The guide. It says "ChromaPure offers the following advantages over the software used in our previous guide", which was HCFR.
The "previous guide" was based on the 2008 version of HCFR. I don't think the statement is applicable to the current version, given how much improvements have been made by zoyd.
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post #7739 of 7740 Old Today, 06:39 AM
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HCFR disables the icc profile and its associated LUT, so you cannot directly compare its measurements with from from displaycal.
Thanks a lot for this info!
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post #7740 of 7740 Old Today, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
HCFR disables the icc profile and its associated LUT, so you cannot directly compare its measurements with from from displaycal.

You can keep the card gamma tables active by unchecking "disable video card lut " in the pattern generator setup
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