HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 271 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8101 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 07:31 AM
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I have an issue running color sweeps with the internal pattern window. When I run a primary sweep for example, the deltaE values are around 40 or more. When I immediately take a snapshot or continuous reading of the same color after the sweep, deltaE drops to 2 or 3 (the proper value). Grayscale does not have this issue.
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post #8102 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mick50008 View Post
Oh and I tried selecting 75% in preferences but I think hcfr was still expecting 100%. Do i just select the same primary colors test as usual after changing it to 75% in preferences or do I need to select something different to run it at 75%?
When you select 75% in preferences, HCFR will change the targets when you run Primary and Secondary Colours. You may want to clear the diagram of the previous results to avoid clutter.
When it comes to "compromises" it's hard to base it on the boundary CIE diagram. You should run the saturation sweeps which show you o, 25, 50, 75, 100%. Also run the colour checker to see which setting gives you better results.
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post #8103 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
When you select 75% in preferences, HCFR will change the targets when you run Primary and Secondary Colours. You may want to clear the diagram of the previous results to avoid clutter.
When it comes to "compromises" it's hard to base it on the boundary CIE diagram. You should run the saturation sweeps which show you o, 25, 50, 75, 100%. Also run the colour checker to see which setting gives you better results.


Thanks, I think I was getting more errors at 75% than I was at 100% then, so that can't be a good sign, I thought it was meant to get better the lower you go. I also had to turn on Sony "live colour" to get the red more vibrant and the other colours pretty much stayed the same or got a tiny bit worse so I gave it a crack. Not sure I'm happy with live colour on tho.

With the other calibration I turned on hdr and expected to not like it but thought it looked great, now with this one when I turn on hdr it looks all washed out. Dunno what's going on with that, but yeah. Will have to play around with it again tomorrow and see if I can make any more progress as it's 4am here and I gotta call it a night.

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post #8104 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mick50008 View Post
Thanks, I think I was getting more errors at 75% than I was at 100% then, so that can't be a good sign,
If you post the 75% results I'll take a look. I assume you've reset all the colour changes you previously made based on 100%?

Btw, if you're not using HCFR's internal patterns, you need to make sure the external patterns are actually 75% saturation and 75 luminance.
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post #8105 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you post the 75% results I'll take a look. I assume you've reset all the colour changes you previously made based on 100%?

Btw, if you're not using HCFR's internal patterns, you need to make sure the external patterns are actually 75% saturation and 75 luminance.

I will definitely post them tomorrow. I have been using the avs709 patterns which has patterns from calmans and hcfr I believe I used the 75% ones in the hcfr folder. I assume they are the right ones? I didn't know you could use internal patterns either, if you do that does the grayscale just run through instead of having to select each stage individually? Cos that would be much better lol.

And quick thoughts on the i1 is that it's doing pretty much the same job my spyder 3 did.. just a lot quicker and with the correct black level reading. Pretty impressed with the 5 or 6 yr old spyder tbh.
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post #8106 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mick50008 View Post
I will definitely post them tomorrow. I have been using the avs709 patterns which has patterns from calmans and hcfr I believe I used the 75% ones in the hcfr folder. I assume they are the right ones?
The AVS709 % colour patterns are % saturation at 100% luminance. They are used for the saturation sweeps. The HCFR 75%/75% is for both saturation and luminance. That's probably why you were getting worse results.

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I didn't know you could use internal patterns either, if you do that does the grayscale just run through instead of having to select each stage individually? Cos that would be much better lol.
Yes, it's way easier and less error prone, as the displayed pattern is always in sync with the pattern HCFR is expecting. You will need a laptop and use its build in screen while connecting the TV as a second display in the Extended (not Mirroring) mode.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-02-2016 at 04:56 PM.
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post #8107 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 11:38 AM
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Don't calibrate to get the 75%, 75/75% or 100% color readings correct, instead calibrate to get the saturation sweeps and the color checker readings correct. - You can use the 75% AND 100% dE readings (flip back and forth), CIE chart and saturation shifts/luminance graph to get everything correct.

Shoot for a CIE2000 dE of 2.6 or under. Don't go insane trying to get it to .5 or something.

Two final things: Remember to check "Use measured gamma" and run a grayscale sweep before running a colorchecker sweep. And if using a colorimeter it is very important to use the correct spectral profile when adjusting the CMS, way more so that when doing greyscale.
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post #8108 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quad5Ny View Post
Don't calibrate to get the 75%, 75/75% or 100% color readings correct, instead calibrate to get the saturation sweeps and the color checker readings correct. - You can use the 75% AND 100% dE readings (flip back and forth), CIE chart and saturation shifts/luminance graph to get everything correct.

Shoot for a CIE2000 dE of 2.6 or under. Don't go insane trying to get it to .5 or something.

Two final things: Remember to check "Use measured gamma" and run a grayscale sweep before running a colorchecker sweep. And if using a colorimeter it is very important to use the correct spectral profile when adjusting the CMS, way more so that when doing greyscale.
Totally agree with this. When I calibrate color, I proceed 'one click at a time' using color checker to assess the results after each click (both average and worst-case dE).

Your TV is almost never going to be displaying 100% color primaries (or secondaries) or even 75%/75% primaries.

Color checker patterns do a much more accurate job of assessing the impact of any CMS changes on the class of colors and images likely to be involved when viewing actual content.

Using color checker between CMS clicks is overly burdensome if limited to using manual/disk patterns but is very convenient when using the HCFR pattern generator.

I calibrate with HCFR and then check the final result using manual/disk patterns.
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post #8109 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
AFAIK, the AVS709 75% colour patterns are 75% saturation (at 100% luminance). The HCFR 75%/75% is for both saturation and luminance. That's probably why you were getting worse results.


Yes, it's way easier and less error prone, as the displayed pattern is always in sync with the pattern HCFR is expecting. You will need a laptop and use its build in screen while connecting the TV as a second display in the Extended (not Mirroring) mode.

I assume using a monitor instead of a laptop would work just as well? I think I read somewhere when doing it like that to connect the hdmi cord from the laptop or in my case the monitor to the tv and not the PC to the tv?
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post #8110 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mick50008 View Post
I assume using a monitor instead of a laptop would work just as well?
Yes, as long as your computer can drive two displays, one for the HCFR user interface, the other (HDMI) to the TV.

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I think I read somewhere when doing it like that to connect the hdmi cord from the laptop
Yes
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or in my case the monitor to the tv and not the PC to the tv?
Not sure what you mean by that.
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post #8111 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 02:59 PM
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ohhhhh kkkk..... I don't know what's going on but when connected as an extended display and using the internal?automatic hcfr pattern generator this is what i'm getting now.. I have no idea if have a setting incorrect. I am running in full rgb (0-255) for both tv and monitor if that makes a difference, other than that i have no idea what could be set wrong, or if this is just accurate now. I don't know what to make of it..
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post #8112 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Your TV is almost never going to be displaying 100% color primaries (or secondaries) or even 75%/75% primaries.

Color checker patterns do a much more accurate job of assessing the impact of any CMS changes on the class of colors and images likely to be involved when viewing actual content.
I agree that the ColorChecker patterns are important (see my previous post). However, I consider it to be a check (pun intended) rather than the actual calibration.

At least for a new user, it's far easier to calibrate the primary and secondary colours, for the simple reason that it's obvious which CMS controls you should be adjusting when calibrating red (as an example). And getting the primary and secondary colours correct will bring the colorchecker patterns closer to their correct values, so it's much easier to finetune them afterwards by simply make small adjustments and watch the impact on the dE. To directly adjust the skin colour, one need to determine which combinations of controls are involved, and in what proportion, definitely not something obvious for a new user.

Additionally, some TVs provide additional controls specifically for skin tones, and it's much easier to first get the primary and secondary colour right, then finetune the skin controls (which will have very little effect on the primary and secondary colour boundaries)
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post #8113 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mick50008 View Post
ohhhhh kkkk..... I don't know what's going on but when connected as an extended display and using the internal?automatic hcfr pattern generator this is what i'm getting now.. I have no idea if have a setting incorrect. I am running in full rgb (0-255) for both tv and monitor if that makes a difference, other than that i have no idea what could be set wrong, or if this is just accurate now. I don't know what to make of it..
When you switch to a new pattern source, you should first run the greyscale to confirm that there are no mismatches in the level settings.
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post #8114 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 03:22 PM
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Ok, it seems it was just trying to read the colours to fast, doing the continual run on the colours and things levelled out. How do i make it scan the colours for longer to get a more accurate reading?
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post #8115 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 03:28 PM
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Ok, so setting it to 3000ms in preferences didn't fix the issue when doing a primary and secondary colors reading, but doing acontinual read shows the normal results. Doing it as part of a run shows the super bad results..


Same thing is happening when I run grayscale through hcfr, I'm getting incorrect luminance reading. Showing up as 139 white point when it's really 172.. and it's the same across all points. Same thing is happening in the color test. Using continual run reports the right figures.

Using external patterns didn't have this issue so it must be something to do with switching to internal/automatic patterns.

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post #8116 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 04:39 PM
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Ok, so setting it to 3000ms in preferences didn't fix the issue when doing a primary and secondary colors reading, but doing acontinual read shows the normal results. Doing it as part of a run shows the super bad results..
Someone else recently reported a similar problem (see Post 8101 above). I myself have never run into this, but will add it to the bugs list.

As a workaround (until zoyd can fix this problem), you can just put HCFR in continuous measurement mode, and then click through the column headings one by one. For grey scale, you can start with 100%, then work from 0% up. Not ideal but still much faster than using external pattern sources.
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post #8117 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 04:48 PM
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Someone else posted a similar problem, but only for saturation runs. I myself have never run into this

As a workaround (until zoyd can fix this problem), you can just put HCFR in continuous measurement mode, and then click through the column headings one by one. For grey scale, you can start with 100%, then work from 0% up. Not ideal but still much faster than using external pattern sources.

Alright, glad I haven't just got something set wrong tbh. Thought i was going nuts. What should I have "color checker patterns" set to in preferences? I changed that and can't remember the default in an attempt to see if that was set wrong. I will probably just do the grayscale sweep with external sources after doing what you said for actually calibrating it.. I have reset everything again lol.
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post #8118 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 05:18 PM
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Alright, glad I haven't just got something set wrong tbh. Thought i was going nuts.
Are you using the Floating Window (default) for displaying the patterns? If so, try switching to GDI and see if you still have the problem.

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What should I have "color checker patterns" set to in preferences? I changed that and can't remember the default in an attempt to see if that was set wrong. I will probably just do the grayscale sweep with external sources after doing what you said for actually calibrating it.. I have reset everything again lol.
The ColorChecker options correspond to different people's opinions on which collection of patterns are most important. The default selection is the first one (GCD classic). The choice is largely personal preference, but if you use external pattern sources, it's critical that they match HCFR's expected patterns exactly. That's another reason why I prefer using the internal patterns.
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post #8119 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ntalwar View Post
I have an issue running color sweeps with the internal pattern window. When I run a primary sweep for example, the deltaE values are around 40 or more. When I immediately take a snapshot or continuous reading of the same color after the sweep, deltaE drops to 2 or 3 (the proper value). Grayscale does not have this issue.
Are you using the Floating Window or GDI for the test patterns? There have been some reports that the floating window sometimes gets out of sync.
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post #8120 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I agree that the ColorChecker patterns are important (see my previous post). However, I consider it to be a check (pun intended) rather than the actual calibration.

At least for a new user, it's far easier to calibrate the primary and secondary colours, for the simple reason that it's obvious which CMS controls you should be adjusting when calibrating red (as an example). And getting the primary and secondary colours correct will bring the colorchecker patterns closer to their correct values, so it's much easier to finetune them by simply make small adjustments. To directly adjust the skin colour, one need to determine which combinations of controls are involved, and in what proportion, definitely not something obvious for a new user.

Additionally, some TVs provide additional controls specifically for skin tones, and it's much easier to first get the primary and secondary colour right, then finetune the skin controls (which will have very little effect on the primary and secondary colour boundaries)
I agree, I didn't mean that you should use the colorchecker instead of measuring the primary/secondary colors. All I meant was that sometimes you have to sacrifice 100% saturation to get everything else in line.

For example on quite a few displays I've calibrated Blue ends up being way too dark at full saturation, but if I do a Saturation sweep of blue it's back to normal once it hits around 90% saturation (and the colorcheckers agree). - So if I were to correct 100% saturation to be perfect the rest of the saturation levels would be way too bright.

I mean you just have to get a feel for the display you're working on. Doing a colorchecker pass everytime you make a change might be overkill though, just do a 6 point saturation sweep on that color (it's much faster).

Also remember you can do continuous measures and adjust colors in realtime. Use the CIE graph to get a feel for what your changes are making in xy and then you can go into the Primary/Secondary Measures and Saturation sweeps tab get xyY fine tuned.

All that aside, if you're a beginner use the "REC 709 75%/75%" option. It usually yields the best results with the least effort.
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post #8121 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Are you using the Floating Window or GDI for the test patterns? There have been some reports that the floating window sometimes gets out of sync.
Floating window - that explains it, thanks.
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post #8122 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 06:14 PM
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Just did the color checker, and I think this is about as good as i am going to get it, and it looks pretty respectable?? I set it to 75/75 before doing it as well.
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post #8123 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Are you using the Floating Window or GDI for the test patterns? There have been some reports that the floating window sometimes gets out of sync.

That was my issue as well! So much better now. Thanks!!!

Will upload a full report shortly to hopefully get some feedback with everything ran at 75/75.
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post #8124 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 06:35 PM
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Alright, I think mostly looking good now, the things that stuck out to me were the saturation shifts graph looks pretty ugly, but I have no idea what that means... and near black scale in measures is looking pretty ordinary.. plus the red issue is there still but as small as i am able to get it with out stuffing up all the other colors. In the cie diagram orange is falling what looks like a decent amount out as well but i don't know if it's within a reasonable standard or would be considered an issue for most?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ymexburm1b...ures9.chc?dl=0
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post #8125 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Quad5Ny View Post
Also remember you can do continuous measures and adjust colors in realtime. Use the CIE graph to get a feel for what your changes are making in xy and then you can go into the Primary/Secondary Measures and Saturation sweeps tab get xyY fine tuned.
When I adjust the CMS, I use the Primary/Secondary Measure tab but display the CIE diagram in the lower right window (replacing Comments). That way I get a graphic display on xy and can see xyY numerically at the same time. On many TVs adjusting hue and saturation controls can affect luminance.
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post #8126 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 07:29 PM
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Will upload a full report shortly to hopefully get some feedback with everything ran at 75/75.
I would only use the 75%/75% option for the Primary/Secondary colours. The CIE diagram actually gets confusing if you use this option for the saturation sweep and colorchecker.
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post #8127 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 08:05 PM
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I would only use the 75%/75% option for the Primary/Secondary colours. The CIE diagram actually gets confusing if you use this option for the saturation sweep and colorchecker.
I actually posted the file already, above your post. But I will do it again at 100% and edit this post with the file so as not to spam the forum.


Here it is..

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c8vynx31d4...00%25.chc?dl=0

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post #8128 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 09:03 PM
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I actually posted the file already, above your post. But I will do it again at 100% and edit this post with the file so as not to spam the forum.
Looks good, except for the red. If your TV doesn't have a full CMS that may be the best you can get.
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post #8129 of 9036 Old 12-01-2016, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Looks good, except for the red. If your TV doesn't have a full CMS that may be the best you can get.
Thanks. I also did a comparison against the spyder elite.

My process for spyder elite takes literally 5 mins, I just run through a new calibration without saving the icc profile with monitor calibration wizard enabled to prevent spyder software making any changes, i run the calibration so i can get the gamma reading, then I click recal with rgb sliders enabled, and just adjust rgb gain to get it to 0.3dab or better. Have to set brightness and contrast manually which I have already established for this tv. That's it. No 10 point controls, no ICC profiles or anything, so it's good for tv's.. and this is the result, checked with i1 display pro in hcfr..



https://www.dropbox.com/s/afok7q6h44...sycal.chc?dl=0


Not bad for literally just adjusting rgb gain a few spaces and gamma down 1 after establishing contrast and brightness settings.

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post #8130 of 9036 Old 12-02-2016, 03:05 PM
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I started using a disc instead of the chromecast today and I noticed under advanced-reference that when I select the color checker tool that the box for 'use measured gamma' is both checked and grayed out now. Is that normal?
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