HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 274 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8191 of 8980 Old 12-09-2016, 11:04 PM
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Just watched Bourne Supremacy and Ultimatum. Wild green tint. I then checked my chc file and should have paid attention to the Y value for green. Looks like I will similarly have to fix Yellow and Cyan.

I still don't know how to go about calibrating the RGBYCM colors though.
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post #8192 of 8980 Old 12-10-2016, 06:11 AM
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Sorry for post spamming.

Finally did the ISF Dark Room calibration under proper room conditions. I focused first on ensuring RGBCMY accuracy, then did the greyscale, followed by gamma. I did not touch IRE 20 point controls whatsoever and then attacked the color saturation.

I think this is the calibration that gave me the best REC 709 coverage as well.

Settings used:
- OLED 50
- Contrast 60
- Brightness 60
- Gamma 2.2


I think I got pretty decent results considering. Once again, feedback appreciated.
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post #8193 of 8980 Old 12-10-2016, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idiosyncrasies View Post
- I've noticed that the TV clips whites after the reference level. This makes color calibration difficult because the white is clipped, and all the primary and secondaries are based of that.
It appears that your greyscale measurements are totally off at the low end - 0% is brighter than 100% (321 vs 282 cd/m^2). There has been a reported bug associated with the Floating Window display; if you were using that, switch to GDI instead. Alternatively, revert back to version 3.4.1 which did not have this issue.
Also run Near White grey scale to see where the white clipping starts.
[EDIT] The comment was made on your "ISF Bright.chc", but "ISF Dark 4.chc" has the same issue. Additionally, ISF Bright has severe clipping at 5%.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-10-2016 at 07:08 AM.
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post #8194 of 8980 Old 12-10-2016, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It appears that your greyscale measurements are totally off at the low end - 0% is brighter than 100% (321 vs 282 cd/m^2). There has been a reported bug associated with the Floating Window display; if you were using that, switch to GDI instead. Alternatively, revert back to version 3.4.1 which did not have this issue.
Also run Near White grey scale to see where the white clipping starts.
[EDIT] The comment was made on your "ISF Bright.chc", but "ISF Dark 4.chc" has the same issue.
I noticed that too. I'll give GDI mode a shot. I haven't used GDI mode mainly because it doesn't play nice in dual screen extended setup. I think I will have to duplicate my laptop screen to my TV (1440p res instead of 2160p).

I will try the near white grey scale as well, but using AVS 709 files - the clipping starts AFTER reference white. Which means, no matter how much I try to adjust the contrast, I cannot see any flashing bars after 234.

What do you think of the other numbers? Mind you, I didn't do any IRE 20 point changes on the "ISF Dark 4" calibration yet.
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post #8195 of 8980 Old 12-10-2016, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by idiosyncrasies View Post
What do you think of the other numbers? Mind you, I didn't do any IRE 20 point changes on the "ISF Dark 4" calibration yet.
ISF Dark 4 looks pretty good. ISF Bright, however, has clipping at 5%, see the RGB graph when Y is included in the dE calculation.
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post #8196 of 8980 Old 12-10-2016, 07:38 PM
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Stupid question. But how do I go back to the old method of calibration using AVS HD and not use the test pattern generation? I don't trust my PC's HDMI output.

EDIT: Never mind that's what continuous is for. I'm just being dense.

Last edited by Dick Emery; 12-10-2016 at 07:49 PM.
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post #8197 of 8980 Old 12-10-2016, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Emery View Post
But how do I go back to the old method of calibration using AVS HD and not use the test pattern generation? I don't trust my PC's HDMI output.
EDIT: Never mind that's what continuous is for. I'm just being dense.
Actually, to do that you would change the Generator setting from Automatic to DVD/Manual. Otherwise HCFR will continue to display the pattern even though you're using the DVD player to do it.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-12-2016 at 05:07 AM.
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post #8198 of 8980 Old 12-11-2016, 12:05 PM
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Hi All,

I am just getting my hands wet with HCFR and looking for some pointers/help.
Following is some basic background information.

Display : Epson 6040ub projector
Source : Philips BDP7501 UHD bluray
Pattern disks at hand : S&M, AVSHD709
HCFR version: Latest (3.4.2)
Meter : i1 Display Pro

I have got a good hang of getting the grey scale to reference.
My struggle starts at CMS. Based on the guide for dummies, It first steps you through setting the Color and Tint control and then has optional part of adjusting primaries and Secondaries using CMS.
So here are my questions.

1. Can I skip the color and tint control setting entirely and just skip to CMS?
2. Instructions for setting primaries are pretty straight forward, but for secondaries, the guide lists reference values for REC709 (and REC601) and mentions to adjust Hue and Saturation of each color control.
3. The x and y values are affected by both Hue and Saturation? (at least that is what I noticed). Also while changing Hue and Saturation, the Y value is also getting affected. (Is this the problem of the display)

If there is any information/link/help available to accurately set the primaries and secondaries using HCFR, that would be great and really appreciate.

I have created a simple excel sheet with all required steps. It will ask you to enter the Y value at few steps and calculate the corresponding %ge Y values for next steps.
It's just missing the CMS part due to lac of accurate information.

I will share the excel sheet here once it is complete.
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post #8199 of 8980 Old 12-11-2016, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
1. Can I skip the color and tint control setting entirely and just skip to CMS?
Yes, the guide actually says
Quote:
The tint control is a legacy control that exists from the days of 480i composite video (not to be confused with component). Tint is used to adjust for hue errors in the three secondary colours. Since it affects all three secondary colours at the same time, it is pretty much useless for precise calibration purposes.
Quote:
2. Instructions for setting primaries are pretty straight forward, but for secondaries, the guide lists reference values for REC709 (and REC601) and mentions to adjust Hue and Saturation of each color control.
If you have CMS controls for Primary and Secondary colours, you can adjust all colours the same way, first the primary then the secondary. They do interact somewhat, so repeat the sequence to check.
Quote:
3. The x and y values are affected by both Hue and Saturation?
Yes. It's much easier to view the CIE diagram when you're adjusting them, rather than viewing the numerical values of x & y.
Quote:
Also while changing Hue and Saturation, the Y value is also getting affected.
Yes, you do have to iterate between them.

Quote:
I have created a simple excel sheet with all required steps. It will ask you to enter the Y value at few steps and calculate the corresponding %ge Y values for next steps.
I'm not sure why you're calculating the values "off-line". HCFR pre-calculates all the target values based on the measured white luminance; all you need to do is to match the measured values to the calculated values as closely as you can, which will also minimize the delta-E. As mentioned previously, the CIE diagram gives you a good graphic view of the xy vaues, while the "grid" gives you the Y value.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-11-2016 at 04:24 PM.
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post #8200 of 8980 Old 12-11-2016, 06:28 PM
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Thanks for the clarifications. A few more questions if I may ask.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post

I'm not sure why you're calculating the values "off-line". HCFR pre-calculates all the target values based on the measured white luminance; all you need to do is to match the measured values to the calculated values as closely as you can, which will also minimize the delta-E. As mentioned previously, the CIE diagram gives you a good graphic view of the xy vaues, while the "grid" gives you the Y value.

Ah. I was not aware. Where do I find that grid? (Sorry for dumb questions. Please bear with me)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post

If you have CMS controls for Primary and Secondary colours, you can adjust all colours the same way, first the primary then the secondary. They do interact somewhat, so repeat the sequence to check.

As the guide for dummies say, set the Y value . But they provide some static values for x and y. That may be hard to match based on the peak lumen for a given setup


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post

Yes. It's much easier to view the CIE diagram when you're adjusting them, rather than viewing the numerical values of x & y.
Thanks. This would be much easier.
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post #8201 of 8980 Old 12-11-2016, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Where do I find that grid?
The "grid" is just the main HCFR view (Measures tab). For adjusting colours, I would use the screen setup as attached, with the top and bottom windows providing all the info you need.
When you adjust Saturation and Hue, you can see the measurement move towards the target in the CIE diagram, which will also minimize the "delta xy" shown in the grid. When you adjust the Luminance (or Level), make the "delta luminance" as small as you can get.
The controls interact somewhat, so you will need to iterative between them to get the best overall setting.
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post #8202 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The "grid" is just the main HCFR view (Measures tab). For adjusting colours, I would use the screen setup as attached.
When you adjust Saturation and Hue, you can see the measurement move towards the target in the CIE diagram, which will also minimize the "delta xy" shown in the grid. When you adjust the Luminance (or Level), make the "delta luminance" as small as you can get.
Thank you so much Dominic.
This is fantastic. I learned something new (and the "right").
Really appreciate your time and feedback.

Also as mentioned in the guide, for initial contrast and black level, I did the following

1. Watching "Y" value on 100 IRE, set the contrast control to the point where Y value is highest. (At some point it can not go any higher even if you increase it. I stopped at that optimal point)
2. Watching "Y" value on 10 IRE, set brightness control such that the Y value now is 0.65% of the one obtained in 1 above.

Is this the "right" method or there is any other better alternative?

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post #8203 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
1. Watching "Y" value on 100 IRE, set the contrast control to the point where Y value is highest. (At some point it can not go any higher even if you increase it. I stopped at that optimal point)
Does the Dummies' Guide actually suggest that? That's not the right way, and would lead of "hard clipping" of the 100 IRE, which most likely means you already have some other form of clipping below that.

Quote:
2. Watching "Y" value on 10 IRE, set brightness control such that the Y value now is 0.65% of the one obtained in 1 above.
That approach is not commonly used and relies on a lot of assumptions regarding the display. The commonly accepted way of setting the Brightness control is to use test patterns such that the black is as black as possible, while still able to see the shadow details.

In any case, setting Contrast and Brightness is largely independent of the calibration software you use; I suggest you look at some more recent guides on this.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-12-2016 at 09:50 AM.
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post #8204 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idiosyncrasies View Post
Sorry for post spamming.

Finally did the ISF Dark Room calibration under proper room conditions. I focused first on ensuring RGBCMY accuracy, then did the greyscale, followed by gamma. I did not touch IRE 20 point controls whatsoever and then attacked the color saturation.

I think this is the calibration that gave me the best REC 709 coverage as well.

Settings used:
- OLED 50
- Contrast 60
- Brightness 60
- Gamma 2.2


I think I got pretty decent results considering. Once again, feedback appreciated.
If this is for the LG B6 (which I also own), the settings are off quite a bit. See the LG OLED calibration thread. A couple of the pros recommend contrast 85.
My calibrated settings so far are: OLED 32, contrast 85, brightness 51, gamma bt 1886. I also did grayscale first, colorspaces last.
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post #8205 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 02:14 PM
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Received my i1 Display Pro a few days ago.

Just to confirm, do I need to install the X-Rite software or do I just plug it in and let Windows 7 do it's thing?
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post #8206 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by a4tq View Post
Received my i1 Display Pro a few days ago.

Just to confirm, do I need to install the X-Rite software or do I just plug it in and let Windows 7 do it's thing?
i1Display Pro is the same as i1Display 3

https://sourceforge.net/p/hcfr/wiki/...nki%20display/
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post #8207 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 02:52 PM
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Plug and play for me on win7. I never installed the xrite software.
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post #8208 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Does the Dummies' Guide actually suggest that? That's not the right way, and would lead of "hard clipping" of the 100 IRE, which most likely means you already have some other form of clipping below that.


That approach is not commonly used and relies on a lot of assumptions regarding the display. The commonly accepted way of setting the Brightness control is to use test patterns such that the black is as black as possible, while still able to see the shadow details.

In any case, setting Contrast and Brightness is largely independent of the calibration software you use; I suggest you look at some more recent guides on this.
So using the grey ramp (or flashing bar pattern) and PLUGE is the best and accurate, I guess.
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post #8209 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
So using the grey ramp (or flashing bar pattern) and PLUGE is the best and accurate, I guess.
Yes, when using the visual approach. You can also use the hcfr near black and near white which are less subjective.
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post #8210 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Yes, when using the visual approach. You can also use the hcfr near black and near white which are less subjective.
Thanks for that input.
When you say hcfr near black and near white, are those internal patterns you mentioned before.

I made another attempt at color calibration today.
I still have bit of a confusion and if I may ask few questions.

1. How do you set the Y value? Did you set it with the %ge of 100 IRE as mentioned in the Guide does not say anything about the %ge values for secondaries.
2. The reference color triangle in CIE is the one which is dark grey and the one with white outline is what the display's?
3. I found the white triangle a bit too far out and it was impossible to align in any way the primaries by adjusting the Hue and Saturation. It was frustrating at best. So Is the goal to align in the imaginary line from the reference point or exactly coincide with the reference points.

Thanks again for dealing with my questions.


Edit : Found this very detailed post/thread. May be there is some information that may have answers to the many questions in my mind.

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post #8211 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The "grid" is just the main HCFR view (Measures tab). For adjusting colours, I would use the screen setup as attached, with the top and bottom windows providing all the info you need.
When you adjust Saturation and Hue, you can see the measurement move towards the target in the CIE diagram, which will also minimize the "delta xy" shown in the grid. When you adjust the Luminance (or Level), make the "delta luminance" as small as you can get.
The controls interact somewhat, so you will need to iterative between them to get the best overall setting.
While I was attempting to do color calibration today, I could either get the grid or the CIE, but not both. I was clicking on the bottom tabs (that mentions CIE etc) or those monitor icon button on top.
May be I need to find how to display both when I go back there tomorrow.
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post #8212 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
While I was attempting to do color calibration today, I could either get the grid or the CIE, but not both. I was clicking on the bottom tabs (that mentions CIE etc) or those monitor icon button on top.
May be I need to find how to display both when I go back there tomorrow.
Look at the screenshot I posted. Change the lower (Information) window from Comments to CIE. It's much easier when you can see both at the same time.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-12-2016 at 09:32 PM.
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post #8213 of 8980 Old 12-12-2016, 09:20 PM
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Getting back to the Chromecast topic from several posts back.

I was able to run HCFR 3.4.2 (latest) and go through all greyscale and color tests without a crash. I was using a Chromecast v1 on Windows 7 and I'm not in the Google preview program. I'll try the v2 and see if the issue is isolated to that one.

I have to say the automated tests are pretty sweet. Calibrating my Samsung plasma was really frustrating. For some reason it insists on going into dynamic mode when I go into the service menu to make WB changes. I could not figure out ow to make it stay in Movie mode for calibration. This meant turning the TV on and off several times to calibrate, adjust, and repeat til I got good dE's.
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post #8214 of 8980 Old 12-13-2016, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Look at the screenshot I posted. Change the lower (Information) window from Comments to CIE. It's much easier when you can see both at the same time.
Oh yes. Thank you.
Could you please also provide your inputs for the couple of questions I have in the previous post# 8211?
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post #8215 of 8980 Old 12-13-2016, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Thanks for that input.
When you say hcfr near black and near white, are those internal patterns you mentioned before.
Yes, but the AVS 709HD patterns also include these.

Quote:
I still have bit of a confusion and if I may ask few questions.
1. How do you set the Y value?
All the values are set interactively with HCFR running in the Continuous Measures mode; i.e., select the column heading for the colour you want to adjust, and then click on the green triangle.
When you're measuring the Primary/Secondary colours, HCFR displays the measured Luminance (Y) as well as the "delta luminance". For example, if "delta luminance" shows +1%, then you would reduce Y by 1%. You don't need to "calculate" the required value, however. Just monitor "delta luminance" while you're adjusting Y.

Quote:
2. The reference color triangle in CIE is the one which is dark grey and the one with white outline is what the display's?
Yes. If you hover the mouse pointer over the colours, HCFR will tell you which is which.

Quote:
3. I found the white triangle a bit too far out and it was impossible to align in any way the primaries by adjusting the Hue and Saturation. It was frustrating at best. So Is the goal to align in the imaginary line from the reference point or exactly coincide with the reference points.
The CMS on many TVs do not behave exactly as they should. With HCFR in the continuous measures mode, play with the Hue and Saturation controls and see how they affect the CIE diagram. Even the luminance control will have an effect, even though Y is not shown in the diagram. If you can't get them to line up completely, aim for the lowest Delta E.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-13-2016 at 05:02 PM.
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post #8216 of 8980 Old 12-13-2016, 06:05 AM
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Measurements for profiling a colorimeter

I am using HCR with an X-rite i1Display Pro. I recently acquired a used i1Pro spectrometer. I understand how to create a custom profile for the colorimeter, however I would like to know what measurements I need to perform using HCFR on both units to achieve an optimal color correction matrix?

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post #8217 of 8980 Old 12-13-2016, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschlic1 View Post
I am using HCR with an X-rite i1Display Pro. I recently acquired a used i1Pro spectrometer. I understand how to create a custom profile for the colorimeter, however I would like to know what measurements I need to perform using HCFR on both units to achieve an optimal color correction matrix?
White and the Primary Colours.
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post #8218 of 8980 Old 12-13-2016, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by a4tq View Post
Getting back to the Chromecast topic from several posts back.

I was able to run HCFR 3.4.2 (latest) and go through all greyscale and color tests without a crash. I was using a Chromecast v1 on Windows 7 and I'm not in the Google preview program. I'll try the v2 and see if the issue is isolated to that one.

Don't forget to specifically run the Red Saturation test since that one has crashed a lot.
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post #8219 of 8980 Old 12-13-2016, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
Don't forget to specifically run the Red Saturation test since that one has crashed a lot.
Is this a specific test that goes from 10-100& red? I thought I was done after making adjustments then measuring greyscale and primaries/secondaries? I don't have CMS on the TV that I just calibrated so maybe I have to read further in the dummies guide. Thanks!
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post #8220 of 8980 Old 12-13-2016, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Yes, but the AVS 709HD patterns also include these.


All the values are set interactively with HCFR running in the Continuous Measures mode; i.e., select the column heading for the colour you want to adjust, and then click on the green triangle.
When you're measuring the Primary/Secondary colours, HCFR displays the measured Luminance (Y) as well as the "delta luminance". For example, if "delta luminance" shows +1%, then you would reduce Y by 1%. You don't need to "calculate" the required value, however. Just monitor "delta luminance" while you're adjusting Y.


Yes. If you hover the mouse pointer over the colours, HCFR will tell you which is which.


The CMS on many TVs do not behave exactly as they should. With HCFR in the continuous measures mode, play with the Hue and Saturation controls and see how they affect the CIE diagram. Even the luminance control will have an effect, even though Y is not shown in the diagram. If you can't get them to line up complete, aim for the lowest Delta E.
Thank you again for the details.
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