HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 277 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8281 of 8950 Old 12-22-2016, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
My Display (Epson 6040UB), has the usual RGB offset and Gain controls along with the graphical gamma sliders (10 point).
Do I then change the RGB offset for near black or is there something else that I need to see in my display setting.
Also the near black scale on the AVSHD disk is 5 point measure (0%, 1%, 2%, 3% and 4%). May be I can use the 5% IRE from the 20 point grey scale.
The RGB Offset affects the lower end near 0, 1, 2% etc. The 10 IRE gamma slider will have some effect between 5 and 15 IRE. You have to try them to find out.

I would use the HCFR built-in patterns for this as those cover the entire range; you can use the disc patterns for double-checking in case your laptops video output does not match.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-22-2016 at 12:55 PM.
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post #8282 of 8950 Old 12-22-2016, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The RGB Offset affects the lower end near 0, 1, 2% etc. The 10 IRE gamma slider will have some effect between 5 and 15 IRE. You have to try them to find out.

I would use the HCFR built-in patterns for this as those cover the entire range; you can use the disc patterns for double-checking in case your laptops video output does not match.
For the fear of mismatch, I always used the disk patterns (as that is my primary viewing source).
I will give it a shot once with built-in patterns and do a cross check with the disk patterns. If the results are identical, I guess then it would be great.
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post #8283 of 8950 Old 12-22-2016, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
For the fear of mismatch, I always used the disk patterns (as that is my primary viewing source).
I will give it a shot once with built-in patterns and do a cross check with the disk patterns. If the results are identical, I guess then it would be great.
I just did a dry run on my other projector, just to get the feel of automated patterns. Wow, that's pretty damn fast than doing it manually.
I guess I will move to this scheme from the slow and manual disk patterns.
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post #8284 of 8950 Old 12-22-2016, 07:54 PM
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If the projector has a lens iris setting (not the auto iris), should that be full open during calibration or it should be set to the actual opening that you plan to watch regularly.
In other words does the iris setting has any impact or gray scale. I guess not.
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post #8285 of 8950 Old 12-23-2016, 10:33 AM
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Suggestions

I've started calibrating my Sony XBR-75X940D and was wondering if someone could take a look at my HCFR calibration file and give me any suggestions if I did anything incorrectly or ways to improve. I used fields from the AVSHD709 disk. This disk was run on a PS3.

In the PS3 settings, I have RGB range set to limited, HDMI super white ON, deep color OFF, video output format Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr.

On the XBR-75x940D, I have dynamic range on Auto, but have full and limited as options, color space Auto, live color Off.

I'm not sure if all the PS3 and TV settings are correct as I read differing opinions on some of the options.

Thanks for taking the time to look.
Al
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post #8286 of 8950 Old 12-23-2016, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aldefed1 View Post
I've started calibrating my Sony XBR-75X940D and was wondering if someone could take a look at my HCFR calibration file and give me any suggestions if I did anything incorrectly or ways to improve. I used fields from the AVSHD709 disk. This disk was run on a PS3.
Looks pretty good. Blue luminance is a little high.
You may want to run the saturation sweeps and colorchecker patterns to see how well the colours track.
Also use the near black patterns to check the low end gamma, and near white patterns to check for any clipping.
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post #8287 of 8950 Old 12-23-2016, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
For the fear of mismatch, I always used the disk patterns (as that is my primary viewing source).
I will give it a shot once with built-in patterns and do a cross check with the disk patterns. If the results are identical, I guess then it would be great.
I did the test today and looks like there is a difference in the disk vs auto patterns.
Attached the file showing the difference.
Should I use the automated patterns or stay with disk?
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post #8288 of 8950 Old 12-23-2016, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The RGB Offset affects the lower end near 0, 1, 2% etc. The 10 IRE gamma slider will have some effect between 5 and 15 IRE. You have to try them to find out.

I would use the HCFR built-in patterns for this as those cover the entire range; you can use the disc patterns for double-checking in case your laptops video output does not match.
I have made another calibration attempt today on the Epson 6040.
Attached is the before and after.
As for colors, the blue is bit off in comparison (as seen from measurements).
I did not touch Hue and Saturation of any color this time as I had to go extreme when I did it last time.
Any advice is appreciated.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you and all AVSers
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post #8289 of 8950 Old 12-23-2016, 09:30 PM
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Can someone explain, or point me somewhere, what the purpose of these gamma targets are?

Preferences > References tab:
"L*"
"BBC Hybrid Log-Gamma"

Normally I'd just google my questions, but you can't really search for a single letter and a wildcard without more context.
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post #8290 of 8950 Old 12-23-2016, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I did the test today and looks like there is a difference in the disk vs auto patterns.
The black level is elevated in the auto run. Did you use 0-255 or 16-235 in the GDI setting?
Quote:
Should I use the automated patterns or stay with disk?
It's best to use the same source as your movies; i.e., if yo watch movies mostly on disc, then calibrate using the disc patterns.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-24-2016 at 05:28 AM.
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post #8291 of 8950 Old 12-24-2016, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice View Post
Can someone explain, or point me somewhere, what the purpose of these gamma targets are?

Preferences > References tab:
"L*"
"BBC Hybrid Log-Gamma"

Normally I'd just google my questions, but you can't really search for a single letter and a wildcard without more context.
L* is also called L-star which is easier to search for:
L*
That webpage does not get into HDR stuff, but that can be found here:
BBC Hybrid Log-Gamma

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-24-2016 at 07:16 AM.
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post #8292 of 8950 Old 12-24-2016, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The black level is elevated in the auto run. Did you use 0-255 or 16-235 in the GDI setting?
It is 0-255.
I also noticed that the laptop seems to have locked up at 235. I can not set it beyond that.

Quote:
It's best to use the same source as your movies; i.e., if yo watch movies mostly on disc, then calibrate using the disc patterns.
I watch movies exclusively on the disk. So I guess I will stick with the disk patterns.
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post #8293 of 8950 Old 12-25-2016, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Each TV is different. Unlike the 10-pt grey scale and primary/secondary colours, there are no adjustments you can make to the individual "columns".

If you post your results (preferably with more than one Brightness and Contrast settings), people may be able to comment more specifically.
Hi Dominic, I have attached the near black (and near white) measures for Brightness set from 49 to 52.
Please advice. I do see not all Delta E are green in near black. (For near white they are all green).
But I am not sure that indicates clipping.
Please advice.
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post #8294 of 8950 Old 12-25-2016, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Hi Dominic, I have attached the near black (and near white) measures for Brightness set from 49 to 52.
In comparing the 49 (dotted) and 52 (solid) graphs, you will see the following:

1. At 49 the red is clipped, as the level remains essentially the same when the input is raised from 0 to 2 IRE
2. At 52 the red is no longer clipped, but the green has been elevated, i.e., black is no longer black.

You have to look at 50 and 51 to see which ones gives you the best overall response.

Also, in all the graphs the blue is elevated below 4 IRE. This may be indicate that the Blue Bias is set too high, unless it's an inherent behaviour of the projector.
The green is too high at 10 IRE.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-25-2016 at 12:35 PM.
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post #8295 of 8950 Old 12-25-2016, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
In comparing the 49 (dotted) and 52 (solid) graphs, you will see the following:

1. At 49 the red is clipped, as the level remains essentially the same when the input is raised from 0 to 2 IRE
2. At 52 the red is no longer clipped, but the green has been elevated, i.e., black is no longer black.

You have to look at 50 and 51 to see which ones gives you the best overall response.

Also, in all the graphs the blue is elevated below 4 IRE. This may be indicate that the Blue Bias is set too high, unless it's an inherent behaviour of the projector.
The green is too high at 10 IRE.
Thank you Dominic. This is much helpful.
The elevations of green and blue could be me, when I adjusted then doing gray scale corrections. I will see what best I can do.
I believe the dotted white line in this graph is our target for all. Right?

I followed these steps, hope the sequence is right.
1. Adjust Black and white settings using basic setting clipping patterns (I arrived at Brightness 51 and Contrast 55 (while flashing bars clipping just at 247) )
2. Then adjusted the Bias and Gain to get best over all response. (I had to compromise at 10% IRE as I could not get it to below 2. Changing there was messing it further down)
3. Adjusted the gamma (just a bit at 10% and 20%)
4. Took the near black and near white measurements around the brightness value of 51
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post #8296 of 8950 Old 12-25-2016, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I believe the dotted white line in this graph is our target for all. Right?
The dotted white line is the target. However since the projector cannot produce 0 cd/m^2 at 0 IRE, it's better to choose "Display Gamma (black compensation)" under Preferences -> References. That would provide a more meaningful target line to aim for.

Quote:
I followed these steps, hope the sequence is right.
1. Adjust Black and white settings using basic setting clipping patterns (I arrived at Brightness 51 and Contrast 55 (while flashing bars clipping just at 247) )
2. Then adjusted the Bias and Gain to get best over all response. (I had to compromise at 10% IRE as I could not get it to below 2. Changing there was messing it further down)
3. Adjusted the gamma (just a bit at 10% and 20%)
4. Took the near black and near white measurements around the brightness value of 51
The Bias controls are essentially the R/G/B equivalent of the Brightness control. They all affect 0 IRE more than any other levels.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-25-2016 at 09:36 PM.
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post #8297 of 8950 Old 12-25-2016, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The dotted white line is the target. However since the projector cannot produce 0 cd/m^2 at 0 IRE, it's better to choose "Display Gamma (black compensation)" under Preferences -> References. That would provide a more meaning target line to aim for.
Ah.Ok. I had chnaged it to power gamma at some point. But will change it back.

Quote:
The Bias controls are essentially the R/G/B equivalent of the Brightness control. They all affect 0 IRE more than any other levels.
So this means we should not be concerned about setting the brightness control as a first step. Just leave it at default and watch for near black clippings and other anamolies.
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post #8298 of 8950 Old 12-25-2016, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
So this means we should not be concerned about setting the brightness control as a first step. Just leave it at default and watch for near black clippings and other anamolies.
Setting the brightness control and watching near black clipping are really the same.
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post #8299 of 8950 Old 12-25-2016, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Setting the brightness control and watching near black clipping are really the same.
Thanks.
Is this also true for Contrast. i.e. Watching near white clipping or setting it visibally using clipping pattern is same.Former being more accurate.
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post #8300 of 8950 Old 12-25-2016, 07:37 PM
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I'm using version 3.4.2 and when I have APL set to 20-30% and use the built in generator the APL background becomes darker while the pattern becomes brighter.
When measuring colors, the APL pattern appears in different colors. Is this by design? I don't remember seeing this on older versions of the software, but I could be wrong.
Can I disable this without using APL 100% or 0%?

HCFR 3.4.3 | Git branch
Vizio M60-D1 | T95M with LibreELEC | Vizio SB3851-D0 | Calibration + Settings
Vizio M55-C2 | M8S+ with LibreELEC | Calibration + Settings
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post #8301 of 8950 Old 12-25-2016, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
I'm using version 3.4.2 and when I have APL set to 20-30% and use the built in generator the APL background becomes darker while the pattern becomes brighter.
When measuring colors, the APL pattern appears in different colors. Is this by design?
Yes, that's to keep the average colour balance constant, not just the luminance.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-26-2016 at 05:25 AM.
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post #8302 of 8950 Old 12-26-2016, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Is this also true for Contrast.
The same idea applies, but the Contrast setting is much more forgiving. Unlike the black level, a few clicks in the Contrast setting has no practical impact, as long as there's no clipping.

Quote:
Watching near white clipping or setting it visibally using clipping pattern is same.Former being more accurate.
Yes, that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 or 30 posts
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post #8303 of 8950 Old 12-26-2016, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The same idea applies, but the Contrast setting is much more forgiving. Unlike the black level, a few clicks in the Contrast setting has no practical impact, as long as there's no clipping.



Yes, that's what I've been trying to say for the last 20 or 30 posts
Sorry Dominic. I can understand your frustration with my repeated questions.
Thank you again for being patient every time.

I guess, on Epson 6040 I may be hitting the limitation as how much I can tweak.
What it has is RGB Bias and Gains (one set only and not specific to each IRE level) and Customized Gamma sliders 1-9 (one common set and not specific to R,G or B. I don't know if they exist for each color on other devices).
This brings to a compromise where I have to give up something to achieve overall performance on the entire scale.
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post #8304 of 8950 Old 12-26-2016, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I guess, on Epson 6040 I may be hitting the limitation as how much I can tweak.
What it has is RGB Bias and Gains (one set only and not specific to each IRE level) and Customized Gamma sliders 1-9 (one common set and not specific to R,G or B.
Many TVs do have individual 10-pt RGB controls.

Based on the 51-Brightness results, I think you may be able to make some improvements to the low end, specifically, boost the levels at 10 and 20 IRE, and reduce the Green Bias (depending on how things look at 5 IRE, which I cannot see).

BTW, even though you have noticed differences between the HCFR automatic patterns and the disc patterns, it may still be useful to make a 10-point near black sweep just to see how thinks look.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-26-2016 at 11:41 AM.
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post #8305 of 8950 Old 12-26-2016, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Many TVs do have individual 10-pt RGB controls.
Unfortunately Epson 6040 has only one set of controls. I don't know if ISF controls are much more granular. But I can not access them.


Quote:
Based on the 51-Brightness results, I think you may be able to make some improvements to the low end, specifically, boost the levels at 10 and 20 IRE, and reduce the Green Bias (depending on how things look at 5 IRE, which I cannot see).
Thanks. I will see what I can do. But as I said with one set of controls it's frustrating at best. You set the things right at one IRE and then rest of the scale takes a hit.

Quote:
BTW, even though you have noticed differences between the HCFR automatic patterns and the disc patterns, it may still be useful to make a 10-point near black sweep just to see how thinks look.
Sure thing. I will try that too.
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post #8306 of 8950 Old 12-26-2016, 01:41 PM
 
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Do you guys know if there's a specific profile I should be using with my i1 Display Pro for OLED? I took a baseline, and here's what I got. Actual movies look pretty decent, so I'm not sure how much I want to play with it. I adjusted 2-pt WB, and according to the meter, everything looked good, but The very low levels (like flashing bars 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 on a black pattern) had a very obvious purplish tint. It seems that by fooling with the WB settings, I only made things worse. The TV also has a 20 pt option, but I don't want to get that involved.

This baseline graph looks a little odd to me, that's why I'm questioning my meter.
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post #8307 of 8950 Old 12-26-2016, 02:03 PM
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Just installed and it won't detect my i1pro, any idea why this could be?
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post #8308 of 8950 Old 12-26-2016, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
Do you guys know if there's a specific profile I should be using with my i1 Display Pro for OLED? I took a baseline, and here's what I got. Actual movies look pretty decent, so I'm not sure how much I want to play with it. I adjusted 2-pt WB, and according to the meter, everything looked good, but The very low levels (like flashing bars 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 on a black pattern) had a very obvious purplish tint. It seems that by fooling with the WB settings, I only made things worse. The TV also has a 20 pt option, but I don't want to get that involved.

This baseline graph looks a little odd to me, that's why I'm questioning my meter.
You are better off using the 20 point control. I wish I had that on my projector.
There are lot of experts who will help you here.
Just do continuous measurement at each point and adjust the scale.
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post #8309 of 8950 Old 12-26-2016, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
I adjusted 2-pt WB, and according to the meter, everything looked good, but The very low levels (like flashing bars 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 on a black pattern) had a very obvious purplish tint. This baseline graph looks a little odd to me, that's why I'm questioning my meter.
Which level were you monitoring when you did the 2-pt WB? What does the meter say about the very low levels?
Profiling would affect the entire range, not just the very low levels.
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post #8310 of 8950 Old 12-26-2016, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike-90 View Post
Just installed and it won't detect my i1pro, any idea why this could be?
You may have to install the Argyll Drivers.
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