HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 280 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 917Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-01-2017, 11:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntalwar View Post
Does "Change White" under References work? I'm trying a Judd Voss white point ( x .307, y .318) as a test, but selecting Custom white does not enable the White text boxes.
It works, but you have to click on the Apply button to enable to text boxes. Or you can click OK to close the dialog box, and then re-open it.
Dominic Chan is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-02-2017, 09:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
HDgaming42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 714
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Liked: 19
How can one tell if they are using their meter correctly or if the meter is off? I'm using HCFR 3.4.2 with a i1Display Pro rev B (brand new). Using AVSHD709 I could get a rock solid greyscale on a Sony XBR43X800D (quasi-10bit 4K TN panel), but the resulting picture clearly had errors throughout with red and green banding in the greyscale.

Using DisplayCAL on Eizo monitors results in a 6500K sRGB 2.2 calibration that looks awfully blue to the eye.

Using HCFR on a Panasonic Plasma ST50 results in readings that just don't seem correct...

Is there any method to determine if a meter is off without the use of another meter? For instance, when calibrating the ST50 I've tried both "plasma" and "refresh". Both don't seem to read accurately. By this I mean if I adjust Red to be 21% of 100% white, it is quite visibly wrong on the flashing color bars. Same with cyan. If I go by the meter, it is clearly wrong "by eye*". This leads me to believe either

a) I'm setting HCFR up incorrectly
b) my meter is "off"

I've seen reference to @zoyd correction matrixes, but it seems like those have been rolled into HCFR at this point under "plasma", no?

Any help? I'd like to know if my meter is off while I am within the period of return.

*using the blue filter from Spears & Munsil v2 Blu-ray

(additionally on the plasma, the smoothest greyscale delta I can achieve (average sub 2.0) results in a picture that is crushing blacks and clipping white! Is is possible my ST50 simply can't achieve 120cd/m2 with a good picture? If I ignore the meter and set Contrast and Brightness where they should be by clipping patterns then my 10% APL 100% white reading is near 80cd/m2.)

This is a difficult learning experience where I am now second-guessing my equipment! Please--someone set me straight!

Last edited by HDgaming42; 01-02-2017 at 09:59 AM.
HDgaming42 is offline  
Old 01-02-2017, 11:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
How can one tell if they are using their meter correctly or if the meter is off? I'm using HCFR 3.4.2 with a i1Display Pro rev B (brand new). Using AVSHD709 I could get a rock solid greyscale on a Sony XBR43X800D (quasi-10bit 4K TN panel), but the resulting picture clearly had errors throughout with red and green banding in the greyscale.
In most cases, even if a meter does not read a display type correctly, it should still read consistently throughout the range. If you see colour banding in the greyscale, you should set HCFR to measure at least 20 steps to make sure there are no discontinuities between the 10 points.

Quote:
For instance, when calibrating the ST50 I've tried both "plasma" and "refresh". Both don't seem to read accurately. By this I mean if I adjust Red to be 21% of 100% white, it is quite visibly wrong on the flashing color bars. Same with cyan. If I go by the meter, it is clearly wrong "by eye*".
When you calibrate the primary colours, it's not sufficient to just set the level. You need to make sure the x, y, Y values all match the target. You cannot rely on the colour filters.

Quote:
I've seen reference to @zoyd correction matrixes, but it seems like those have been rolled into HCFR at this point under "plasma", no?
Ideally you should get the correction matrix specific to your TV (ST50). You may be able to find them posted somewhere.

Quote:
(additionally on the plasma, the smoothest greyscale delta I can achieve (average sub 2.0) results in a picture that is crushing blacks and clipping white!
A smooth greyscale does not provide any information regarding the black level and white level. You need to look at the gamma curves, and the near black and near white graphs.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-02-2017 at 09:30 PM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
 
Old 01-02-2017, 11:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
HDgaming42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 714
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
In most cases, even if a meter does not read a display type correctly, it should still read consistently throughout the range. If you see colour banding in the greyscale, you should set HCFR to measure at least 20 steps to make sure there are no discontinuities between the 10 points.

When you calibrate the primary colours, it's not sufficient to just set the level. You need to make sure the x, y, Y values all match the target. You cannot rely on the colour filters.

Ideally you should get the correction matrix specific to your TV (ST50). You may be able to find them posted somewhere.

A smooth greyscale does not provide any information regarding the black level and white level. You need to look at the gamma curves, and the near black and near white graphs.
Thanks for the input. I guess you're saying you think its unlikely the meter is off?

I've sourced what seems to be a matrix for the ST50 and I'll give it a go.
1.0383 -0.015199 -0.012862
0.030022 0.96707 -4.8218e-003 (or -0.0048218)
-4.2114e-004 (or -0.00042114) 6.6268e-003 (or 0.0066268) 0.95594

Will have to further explore primaries. Was following the old Curte Palme guide.

But what does it mean when the Delta E of the primaries decreases, yet looks increasingly wrong on the flashing color bars test?

Last edited by HDgaming42; 01-02-2017 at 11:34 AM.
HDgaming42 is offline  
Old 01-02-2017, 07:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
But what does it mean when the Delta E of the primaries decreases, yet looks increasingly wrong on the flashing color bars test?
I would trust the meter more than the filter.
See Ted's post regarding colour filters:
AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration
aaranddeeman and ConnecTEDDD like this.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-03-2017 at 10:10 AM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
Old 01-03-2017, 12:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
HDgaming42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 714
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Discovered a few things:

I have a P50UT50--who knew?
Using the correction matrix really helped.
Utilizing the service menu I used a 2pt greyscale adjustment, initially based on numbers found online.
They read very red, and behold I could see the red in a ramp at the area it was reporting.

Managed to get a flat(ish) greyscale with all Delta E under 2. Other people report that the UT50 nearly nails Rec709 in Cinema mode. Mine certainly doesn't read that way...
HDgaming42 is offline  
Old 01-03-2017, 12:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mo949's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
For TVs with 10-pt grey scale control, "Absolute Y w/ gamma" is the easiest way - all you need to do is to adjust R/G/B controls at each IRE so that the bars show 100%, and both the grey scale and the gamma will be correct. If the TV only has 10-pt gamma control (such as the Epson projectors), it may be easier to adjust grey scale and gamma in separate steps, in which case "Absolute Y w/o gamma" may be a better choice.


Hi Dominic,


I noticed that this selection box is always grayed out for me with the 'w/o gamma' selection checked. Any idea why that may be the case?
mo949 is offline  
Old 01-03-2017, 12:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
I noticed that this selection box is always grayed out for me with the 'w/o gamma' selection checked. Any idea why that may be the case?
The "Greyscale dE handling" is not selectable when the Color Difference Formula is Recommended. You have to first select a different Color Difference Formula, then click on Apply, before you can change the Greyscale dE handling option.
mo949 likes this.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-03-2017 at 01:42 PM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
Old 01-03-2017, 01:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mo949's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 1134
Aww, that's the trick. Thanks! And Happy New Year.
mo949 is offline  
Old 01-03-2017, 02:55 PM
Advanced Member
 
gwgill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 925
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 249 Post(s)
Liked: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post
Is there any method to determine if a meter is off without the use of another meter?
It is possible to sanity check an i1d3, but it will only tell you if something is grossly wrong.

You need an incandescent lamp of the classic variety (i.e. not Quartz Halogen), and measure
it in ambient mode (e.g. by using ArgyllCMS "spotread -a"). The measured color temperature
should be close to 2850K, and close to the black body locus.

If I do this with my i1display Pro for instance, I get 2932K CCT and 0.002 Duv.
(2879 Visual color temperature and 3.5 Delta E2K).

With my ColorMunki Display I get 2834K CCT and 0.000 Duv.
(2820 Visial Color Temperature and 0.9 Delta E 2K)
Olivier C. likes this.
gwgill is offline  
Old 01-04-2017, 07:29 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 265
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
No, you should not use the window patterns for TVs (such as plasmas) which automatically adjust the brightness based on the displayed content. Full screen patterns would be even worse. That's the purpose of the APL patterns - to keep the average brightness the same when the pattern itself varies from black to white. Same with the colours.
I've finished my calibration on my VT60. I used the small ABL patterns for grey scale and gamma. I also used the small ABL 100% colors pattern to set primary and secondary colors based on what you said above. "Same with the colours". I used the correct pattern for colors or should I have used 100% color windows?
Test Ickles is online now  
Old 01-04-2017, 07:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
I've finished my calibration on my VT60. I used the small ABL patterns for grey scale and gamma. I also used the small ABL 100% colors pattern to set primary and secondary colors based on what you said above. "Same with colors". I used the correct pattern for colors or should I have used 100% color windows?
It may not make as much difference as grey scale, but it's always "safer" to use APL patterns, just in case the TV reacts differently when displaying one dominant colour.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-04-2017 at 08:13 AM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
Old 01-04-2017, 07:42 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 265
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It may not make as much difference as grey scale, but it's always "safer" to use APL patterns, just in case the TV reacts differently when display one dominant colour.
Thanks! TV came out great. Thanks for all your help. I will be doing my new LG B6 next.
Test Ickles is online now  
Old 01-05-2017, 06:52 AM
 
milehighou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,763
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 876 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Do you guys happen to know if the 'LCD White LED IPS (WLED AC LG Samsung' setting for 'display type' is OK to use on the Samsung JU7100 (a UHD model from last year)? This panel is VA, not IPS, and I'm also not sure if it uses a white backlight. Someone mentioned that the 8-series actually uses a blue backlight, but those are the SUHD models. Anyway, before any WB tweaks, the grayscale had a blue tint to it. After calibration with my i1D3, it looked noticeably better and more neutral. So, this profile may not be an exact match for the TV, but it does seem reasonable.
milehighou is offline  
Old 01-05-2017, 07:10 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou View Post
Do you guys happen to know if the 'LCD White LED IPS (WLED AC LG Samsung' setting for 'display type' is OK to use on the Samsung JU7100 (a UHD model from last year)?
Unless you have a custom calibration file, that may be the closest. I use it with my KU6300 and it looks fine.
Dominic Chan is online now  
Old 01-05-2017, 07:30 AM
 
milehighou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,763
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 876 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Unless you have a custom calibration file, that may be the closest. I use it with my KU6300 and it looks fine.
Thanks! It does look much better than the out-of-box settings, so I think I'm good.
milehighou is offline  
Old 01-07-2017, 12:56 PM
Senior Member
 
RIppolito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 287
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Ah. ok. So that is the purpose of the surrounding "scenery".
I, too, am new to the calibration process...

On the AVS 709 disc, what does 'APL' refer to? What do the different collections (APL, WIndows) refer to?

Thanks for the help with the first of many questions...
Ron
RIppolito is offline  
Old 01-07-2017, 01:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIppolito View Post
On the AVS 709 disc, what does 'APL' refer to? What do the different collections (APL, WIndows) refer to?
See:
APL
Dominic Chan is online now  
Old 01-07-2017, 01:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aaranddeeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lover's State
Posts: 3,762
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1644 Post(s)
Liked: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You can try BT1886 to see if you like it.
When using BT1886, what should be the values for Effective Gamma (2.4?) and input offset?


Edit: Okay found this post 7538.

Last edited by aaranddeeman; 01-07-2017 at 06:05 PM.
aaranddeeman is online now  
Old 01-07-2017, 03:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
When using BT1886, what should be the values for Effective Gamma (2.4?) and input offset?
Edit: Okay found this post 7358.
In post 7261, zoyd recommended "BT.1886 with 2.4 effective gamma and 10% output offset. This should generate a transfer (gamma) curve with good dark detail and superior midtone to dark contrast compared to a 2.2 power law".

That was for a VT50 TV.
Dominic Chan is online now  
Old 01-08-2017, 03:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aaranddeeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lover's State
Posts: 3,762
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1644 Post(s)
Liked: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
In post 7261, zoyd recommended "BT.1886 with 2.4 effective gamma and 10% output offset. This should generate a transfer (gamma) curve with good dark detail and superior midtone to dark contrast compared to a 2.2 power law".

That was for a VT50 TV.
As one of reviewers of Epson 6040 said "adjusting gamma sliders on Epson is very frustrating..". Now I concur with him.
I did manage to get gamma (using the 9 point sliders) to 2.4. Not exactly linear and smooth at all levels, but as best as it could.
One of the presets do give almost linear 2.4 gamma, however it goes to 2.6 in low end (like 10% point). So I skipped that.
I then tested the 2.2 vs 2.4 and had hard time pointing any difference. It was subtle at best.
May be I will stick with 2.2 for now.
aaranddeeman is online now  
Old 01-09-2017, 06:26 AM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
As one of reviewers of Epson 6040 said "adjusting gamma sliders on Epson is very frustrating..". Now I concur with him.
A bit OT, but if anyone has a link to a resource that explains how to use the Epson gamma sliders I would be very grateful indeed. They are indeed frustrating. I've spent several hours trying to tweak it, with mild succces...

Last edited by Barsk; 01-09-2017 at 06:36 AM.
Barsk is offline  
Old 01-09-2017, 06:29 AM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 20
I'm wondering if the Chromecast Ultra is compatible with HCFR. I.e if it can be used just as the ordinary Chromecast?
Barsk is offline  
Old 01-09-2017, 07:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
A bit OT, but if anyone has a link to a resource that explains how to use the Epson gamma sliders I would be very grateful indeed. They are indeed frustrating. I've spent several hours trying to tweak it, with mild succces...
What specifically is the issue? Unfortunately the Owner's Manual does not provide any details other than mentioning its existence.
Dominic Chan is online now  
Old 01-09-2017, 02:52 PM
Member
 
Barsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
What specifically is the issue? Unfortunately the Owner's Manual does not provide any details other than mentioning its existence.
Well, when trying to adjust the custom controls, there are 9 sliders (if I remember correctly), the sliders are not corresponding to IRE levels very well. So it is a matter of trial-and-error to try to find which control affects which IRE. And just when you think you've got it and do some editing without the trial-and-error - it just gets wrong.
Well, it was a while since i calibrated my PJ (an older version) so my recollection might be a bit skewed. But I was surprised there was no mention of these awful controls and how to manage them on any googling I could find. Seems most people will go for the predefined gamma settings.
Barsk is offline  
Old 01-09-2017, 03:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
gwgill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 925
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 249 Post(s)
Liked: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
I'm wondering if the Chromecast Ultra is compatible with HCFR. I.e if it can be used just as the ordinary Chromecast?
From feedback I've got - yes, it should work, except if it's name is a bit too long, in which case you will trip over a bug in the current release ArgyllCMS Chromecast driver. (HCFR should really be updated with a fix from ArgyllCMS's V1.9.4 Beta source snapshot.)
gwgill is offline  
Old 01-09-2017, 04:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aaranddeeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lover's State
Posts: 3,762
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1644 Post(s)
Liked: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
Well, when trying to adjust the custom controls, there are 9 sliders (if I remember correctly), the sliders are not corresponding to IRE levels very well. So it is a matter of trial-and-error to try to find which control affects which IRE. And just when you think you've got it and do some editing without the trial-and-error - it just gets wrong.
Ditto.
When you watch the gamma in the info screen while you adjust it, you get all excited only till you run the sweep again.
Another issue is if you select the preset gamma, you can not add improvement over it. The moment you switch the custom, the preset levels are lost.
So even if you want to tweak it something over which is already good. Nada.
aaranddeeman is online now  
Old 01-09-2017, 06:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
Well, when trying to adjust the custom controls, there are 9 sliders (if I remember correctly), the sliders are not corresponding to IRE levels very well.
This issue affects many TVs and projectors. It often happens when the Contrast control is not in its default position. Here's one such discussion with some workarounds:
Control Displacement
Dominic Chan is online now  
Old 01-09-2017, 06:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,166
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1306 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
HCFR should really be updated with a fix from ArgyllCMS's V1.9.4 Beta source snapshot.
Can HCFR be updated manually by copying the AygyllCMS files into the appropriate directories?
Dominic Chan is online now  
Old 01-09-2017, 06:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
gwgill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 925
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 249 Post(s)
Liked: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Can HCFR be updated manually by copying the AygyllCMS files into the appropriate directories?
I'm not sure how it is arranged, since I haven't looked at the HCFR sources. I'm presuming that the ArgyllCMS instlib sub-package is used, but things like Chromecast may be more of a manual copying of source over into HCFR.
gwgill is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off