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post #9151 of 9216 Old 08-12-2017, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
You can change it by going to Measures --> Parameters and set Number of grayscale levels to 20.
Thanks! Somehow I missed that.
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post #9152 of 9216 Old 08-13-2017, 05:52 AM
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Is there a way to set Max White Y target (either through a menu or on the spreadsheet) the way there is to set 0 black when 2084 is the choice? Thanks.
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post #9153 of 9216 Old 08-13-2017, 06:12 AM
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@jqmn

ST.2084 is for HDR calibration.
You can't set Max white Y target, because the target is basically the brightest your display can get. (up to a theoretical maximum of 10,000 nits)
I hope to allow adjusting the metadata sent to the display in a later version. This should in theory allow you to prevent the display from tone mapping.

HCFR 3.4.3 | Git branch
Vizio M60-D1 | T95M with LibreELEC | Vizio SB3851-D0 | Calibration + Settings
Vizio M55-C2 | T95N with LibreELEC | Calibration + Settings

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post #9154 of 9216 Old 08-13-2017, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
Thought I would post it anyway and wait for feedback.
Download: http://www.alcpu.com/HCFR/HCFRSetup-beta.exe
*Note: It will prompt that an update is available, please ignore that.

Changes:
v3.4.4 - 12th August, 2017

- New: HDR10 support. HCFR should now be able to trigger HDR10 mode on your TV (if supported).
- New: Preferences --> References Selecting a color space and/or white point will now correctly display the XY values.
- Fix: Preferences --> References Color Space controls now behave correctly and intuitively.
- Fix: Near Black sweep in ST.2084 HDR mode. (free measures are still broken)
- Fix: Label sequence in grayscale CSV\XLS export files.
Does this mean the HCFR internal pattern generator can be used for calibrating HDR now, with this update. Or do we still need external patterns?
Thank you so much for the updates.
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post #9155 of 9216 Old 08-13-2017, 07:20 AM
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Does this mean the HCFR internal pattern generator can be used for calibrating HDR now, with this update. Or do we still need external patterns?
Thank you so much for the updates.
I should've probably mentioned that (will edit posts later). But please read the post above about the prerequisites for HDR10 support.
Yes, if you select SMPTE 2084 HDR in 'Gamma calculation' in Preferences --> References tab, you will be able to use the built in pattern generator.
I ran a quick test on my TV and it seemed to work quite well, including the MCD color checker.

HCFR 3.4.3 | Git branch
Vizio M60-D1 | T95M with LibreELEC | Vizio SB3851-D0 | Calibration + Settings
Vizio M55-C2 | T95N with LibreELEC | Calibration + Settings

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post #9156 of 9216 Old 08-13-2017, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
@jqmn

ST.2084 is for HDR calibration.
You can't set Max white Y target, because the target is basically the brightest your display can get. (up to a theoretical maximum of 10,000 nits)
I hope to allow adjusting the metadata sent to the display in a later version. This should in theory allow you to prevent the display from tone mapping.
Thanks that's what I thought might be the case.
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post #9157 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 08:15 AM
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I've done dozens of SDR calibrations with HCFR the past year since picking up the hobby. But have so far not explored HDR calibration for a variety of reasons. But now that it seems to be an option to try with HCFR, I guess it's time to try one with my P series. With that said, I was under the impression that there was a work flow difference and general differences in objectives due to TV hardware capability variances. But I admittedly have no idea because I haven't broached the exercise yet. I know HCFR does not have a standard work flow setup, ala Calman, but I wonder if someone could point to a recommended HDR work flow example that is (or is easy to adapt) for HCFR, assuming, in fact, there are indeed work flow issues to be aware of with HDR calibration relative to SDR. Appreciate any reference links.

Thanks in advance.
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post #9158 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Suchocki View Post
I've done dozens of SDR calibrations with HCFR the past year since picking up the hobby. But have so far not explored HDR calibration for a variety of reasons. But now that it seems to be an option to try with HCFR, I guess it's time to try one with my P series. With that said, I was under the impression that there was a work flow difference and general differences in objectives due to TV hardware capability variances. But I admittedly have no idea because I haven't broached the exercise yet. I know HCFR does not have a standard work flow setup, ala Calman, but I wonder if someone could point to a recommended HDR work flow example that is (or is easy to adapt) for HCFR, assuming, in fact, there are indeed work flow issues to be aware of with HDR calibration relative to SDR. Appreciate any reference links.

Thanks in advance.
I too would like that!
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post #9159 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
I should've probably mentioned that (will edit posts later). But please read the post above about the prerequisites for HDR10 support.
Yes, if you select SMPTE 2084 HDR in 'Gamma calculation' in Preferences --> References tab, you will be able to use the built in pattern generator.
I ran a quick test on my TV and it seemed to work quite well, including the MCD color checker.
So if I want to use external patterns (such as Ray's HDR calibration disk) and run 50%/50% color patterns, how would I adjust the HCFR settings? The pattern intensity setting only appears to be available when using the built in pattern generator.
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post #9160 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Suchocki View Post
I've done dozens of SDR calibrations with HCFR the past year since picking up the hobby. But have so far not explored HDR calibration for a variety of reasons. But now that it seems to be an option to try with HCFR, I guess it's time to try one with my P series. With that said, I was under the impression that there was a work flow difference and general differences in objectives due to TV hardware capability variances. But I admittedly have no idea because I haven't broached the exercise yet. I know HCFR does not have a standard work flow setup, ala Calman, but I wonder if someone could point to a recommended HDR work flow example that is (or is easy to adapt) for HCFR, assuming, in fact, there are indeed work flow issues to be aware of with HDR calibration relative to SDR. Appreciate any reference links.

Thanks in advance.
This may help...

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUAV41iFCIM"
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post #9161 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jwhn View Post
So if I want to use external patterns (such as Ray's HDR calibration disk) and run 50%/50% color patterns, how would I adjust the HCFR settings? The pattern intensity setting only appears to be available when using the built in pattern generator.
I don't think HCFR supports anything else. I used R.Masciola's HDR-10 UHD Test Patterns and they worked great for me with HCFR at its defaults.
You have to select the SMPTE 2084 HDR in Gamma calculation.

HCFR 3.4.3 | Git branch
Vizio M60-D1 | T95M with LibreELEC | Vizio SB3851-D0 | Calibration + Settings
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post #9162 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jwhn View Post
So if I want to use external patterns (such as Ray's HDR calibration disk) and run 50%/50% color patterns, how would I adjust the HCFR settings? The pattern intensity setting only appears to be available when using the built in pattern generator.
Two possible options:
1. HCFR allows you to set the GDI Pattern Intensity to values other than the default 100%, so you can set it to 50%. For Saturation, choose the 50% pattern in the saturation sweep.
2. Use the Custom Pattern sequence option to create the 50%/50% R/G/B/C/Y/M patterns.

I haven't actually tried them as I don't have the required hardware for HDR10.

[EDIT: Just realized you were asking about external patterns, although it may still work]

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post #9163 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Two possible options:
1. HCFR allows you to set the GDI Pattern Intensity to values other than the default 100%, so you can set it to 50%. For Saturation, choose the 50% pattern in the saturation sweep.
2. Use the Custom Pattern sequence option to create the 50%/50% R/G/B/C/Y/M patterns.

I haven't actually tried them as I don't have the required hardware for HDR10.

[EDIT: Just realized you were asking about external patterns, although it may still work]
Thanks, Dominic.

For reference, the GDI pattern intensity setting is NOT available when using external patterns. Wish it were but it's not.

I thought about using the custom pattern sequence but wasn't sure exactly how. Wouldn't they need to be 10 bit RGB triplets vs. 8 bit? Or can I just use the 8 bit triplets?
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post #9164 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 12:01 PM
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For reference, the GDI pattern intensity setting is NOT available when using external patterns. Wish it were but it's not.
For SDR, the Primary colour intensities are all relative to white, so it shouldn't really matter as long as the external white pattern is at the desired intensity (e.g., 50%). However, I'm not sure if that's still the case for HDR which expects absolute (as opposed to relative) luminance values.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-14-2017 at 12:55 PM.
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post #9165 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
For SDR, the Primary colour intensities are all relative to white, so it shouldn't really matter as long as the external white pattern is at the desired intensity. However, I'm not sure if that's still the case for HDR which expects fixed (as opposed to relative) luminance values.
Does it mean as long as the white pattern and RGB pattern have the same amplitude and saturation we don't need to tell HCFR what intensity/saturation the patterns have? Did I understand that right?
i.e I have 50% amp/50% saturation patterns for BT2020 with P3 primaries. How does HCFR know what amplitude/saturation the patterns have?
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@jwhn @Dominic Chan @AmigoHD

HCFR defaults to BT2020 and 50%/50%. I kept everything at defaults when I calibrated my TV for HDR10 using external patterns.
The built in pattern generator at SMPTE 2084 HDR setting seems to ignore the pattern intensity setting, and simply displays patterns with 50% amp/50%.
I will be able to run some more tests when I finally get a working M55-E0.

HCFR 3.4.3 | Git branch
Vizio M60-D1 | T95M with LibreELEC | Vizio SB3851-D0 | Calibration + Settings
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post #9167 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 12:22 PM
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Does it mean as long as the white pattern and RGB pattern have the same amplitude and saturation we don't need to tell HCFR what intensity/saturation the patterns have? Did I understand that right?
Only for intensity, not saturation. (White has 0 saturation).

Quote:
I have 50% amp/50% saturation patterns for BT2020 with P3 primaries. How does HCFR know what amplitude/saturation the patterns have?
For SDR, HCFR calculates the target colour values based on the measured white value. As I mentioned before, I'm not sure if that's true for HDR.

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post #9168 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
For SDR, the Primary colour intensities are all relative to white, so it shouldn't really matter as long as the external white pattern is at the desired intensity (e.g., 50%). However, I'm not sure if that's still the case for HDR which expects fixed (as opposed to relative) luminance values.
That's a great point. And what is the right fixed target? 50% of 10K nits is still way out of reach. So is it looking for 50% of 1,000 nits?

@The Coolest

Any insight into how HCFR sets the luminance targets for HDR? Is it based on measured white or an absolute target? I did notice that HCFR does not require the user to first measure the grey scale (while it does for SDR). But it does measure a 50%/50% grey pattern when measuring the primary colors.
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post #9169 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 12:38 PM
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That's a great point. And what is the right fixed target? 50% of 10K nits is still way out of reach. So is it looking for 50% of 1,000 nits?
HDR uses most of the lumance range for the high end. With the SMPTE 2084 HDR EOTF, at 50% stimulus the target luminance is only 94.4 nits.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-14-2017 at 12:42 PM.
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@jwhn

If you pick SMPTE 2084 HDR, you should be able to see the target luminosity values. It "looks" for up to 10K nits, but it will graph correctly, according to the measured 100% white.

HCFR 3.4.3 | Git branch
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
HDR uses most of the lumance range for the high end. With the SMPTE 2084 HDR EOTF, at 50% stimulus the target luminance is only 94.4 nits.
That makes sense. And given that no 100% white measurement is needed from HCFR to do the primaries, that suggests it is looking for the absolute target.
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
@jwhn

If you pick SMPTE 2084 HDR, you should be able to see the target luminosity values. It "looks" for up to 10K nits, but it will graph correctly, according to the measured 100% white.
Okay. Then why is it the case that I don't need to measure 100% white to measure primaries (while this is required when doing SDR primaries)?
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post #9173 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
@jwhn

If you pick SMPTE 2084 HDR, you should be able to see the target luminosity values. It "looks" for up to 10K nits, but it will graph correctly, according to the measured 100% white.
Since SMPTE 2084 HDR uses absolute luminance values, the targets should not depend on the measured 100% white. Otherwise the picture will be really dim.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-14-2017 at 01:17 PM.
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post #9174 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Since SMPTE 2084 HDR uses absolute luminance values, the targets should not depend on the measured 100% white. Otherwise the picture will be really dim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhn View Post
Okay. Then why is it the case that I don't need to measure 100% white to measure primaries (while this is required when doing SDR primaries)?
I know that it uses absolute luminance values. What I was trying to say is that when you go to the luminance graph, it'll use the reading from 100% to plot it.
All readings and calculations for the actual calibration are still based on absolute values.

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post #9175 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
I know that it uses absolute luminance values. What I was trying to say is that when you go to the luminance graph, it'll use the reading from 100% to plot it.
All readings and calculations for the actual calibration are still based on absolute values.
I was referring to the Y-Target value in the Luminance "grid".

I would consider the current behaviour of the luminance graph to be a bug.

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post #9176 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I was referring to the Y-Target value in the Luminance "grid".

I would consider the current behaviour of the luminance graph to be a bug.
Do you mean the reference graph here?



How would you have it behave? Should it track/reference the actual SMPTE Y-targets? and then cut off at the display's 100% white luminosity?
So that in the case of the above screenshot, the reference graph would be a lot steeper and cut off sooner?


Edit:
Strike the above out.
The reference graph follows the Y-target values for each step, and is pegged by the display's highest measured white level.
I think that it's exactly how other calibration software behaves, and it seems like a very logical way to do it.

HCFR 3.4.3 | Git branch
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Last edited by The Coolest; 08-14-2017 at 03:48 PM.
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post #9177 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Since SMPTE 2084 HDR uses absolute luminance values, the targets should not depend on the measured 100% white. Otherwise the picture will be really dim.
It appears that HCFR using absolute targets has been confirmed. Given this, to calibrate the colors on something like a projector that may not be able to get to 94 nits at 50%, what would be the best approach?

1. Use the 50%/50% patterns but focus on hue and saturation (and generally ignore lunimance)
2. Create a custom pattern with a lower intensity that the display can achieve such as 30% or 40%?

Something else?

You may say don't bother at that point, but I'm curious what would be the best work around in this situation?
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post #9178 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
Do you mean the reference graph here?



How would you have it behave? Should it track/reference the actual SMPTE Y-targets? and then cut off at the display's 100% white luminosity?
So that in the case of the above screenshot, the reference graph would be a lot steeper and cut off sooner?


Edit:
Strike the above out.
The reference graph follows the Y-target values for each step, and is pegged by the display's highest measured white level.
I think that it's exactly how other calibration software behaves, and it seems like a very logical way to do it.
To me this has always been clear because the software shows the absolute targets it wants for the grey scale. What hasn't been clear, is what it expects when doing primary and secondary color measurements. You have now clarified that it is looking for absolute luminance targets. So if I put up a 50%/50% red pattern, it is looking for an absolute luminance value and not one relative to measured white. Just confirming that this is indeed the case.

What some of the other software does is provide a multiplier value for the 2084 gamma curve because in reality, not all displays can hit the absolute targets. That might be a nice feature to add in the future...
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post #9179 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 04:28 PM
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I believe for Primaries it does take white into consideration, but it's taken at 50% as well, so around 95 nits as Dominic mentioned.
Here's the CIE chart from my pretty HDR-limited M60-D1:




HCFR 3.4.3 | Git branch
Vizio M60-D1 | T95M with LibreELEC | Vizio SB3851-D0 | Calibration + Settings
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post #9180 of 9216 Old 08-14-2017, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
Do you mean the reference graph here?


The vertical scale should be in nits, not % of some ill-defined number.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-14-2017 at 06:14 PM.
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