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post #901 of 4245 Old 08-23-2012, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLewis View Post

Which avs709 patterns are best for calibrating a Panny GT30 when using HCFR?
Small or Large apl patterns or the standard 10% greyscale window?
I get a difference when reading apl patterns in regards to regular window and I will like to know which one works best for Panny Plasma.
Thanks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vega509 View Post

use the smallest window patterns you have to avoid the panels auto limiting circuit.

Normally, small windows are the preferred method with plasmas. However, having performed TONS of calibrations on my Panasonic VT30 over the past year, I have decided that on these particular models, using Large APL windows yield the most accurate skin tones. Small windows and small APL patterns yield a calibration which is slightly too red. I've calibrated cool/normal/warm color temps in the service menu multiple times so that I could easily compare the results of small windows vs. small APL vs. large APL and large APL wins every time on my VT30.

Hope this helps!
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post #902 of 4245 Old 08-23-2012, 09:33 AM
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^ I like the 10% APL windows on the GCD (gamut calibration disc). They work well on my plasma - the ABL does not kick in at all with these patterns.
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post #903 of 4245 Old 08-23-2012, 09:46 AM
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The problem with the x30 line of Panasonic plasmas is that the ABL circuitry is very aggressive and seems to kick in VERY early. Therefore, it's pretty much always in effect when viewing any real content and it needs to be taken into account during calibration (i.e. by using large APL windows). Calibrating around the ABL limiter with smaller windows yields a result which is too red on real-world content.

This was not the case on my older Panasonic plasma, but is very much the case on my VT30. A/B/C comparisons have proved this after using tons of reference material to check skin tones after calibrating with small windows, small APL patterns and large APL patterns.

YMMV
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post #904 of 4245 Old 08-23-2012, 01:07 PM
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For grayscale, I don't think it matters much to use windows anywhere between 10-14% with plasmas. It might affect your luminance / gamma readings a bit, in which case you would probably want to use the appropriate window size if you have a 10pt gamma system. I calibrated my ST50 GS with the 14% AVSHD709 windows but re-checked them with the GCD 10% windows and the only thing that was different was the gamma / luminance readings were a bit different.

Haven't calibrated a plasma with a CMS yet, so I can't comment on how window size / ABL affects color.
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post #905 of 4245 Old 08-23-2012, 09:21 PM
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I am using avshd disk, which patterns i should use if i output from bluray?
thx
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post #906 of 4245 Old 08-23-2012, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post

I eventually came to this conclusion as well with HCFR and my i1D3. Using Zoyd's correction matrix was just a tad greener than I liked. I did not have this issue when calibrating with Calman however. HCFR is still not doing something right with the i1D3 - at least not on my VT30 plasma. The Calman calibration simply looks visually better when doing A-B comparisons.

Same here, using correction matrix gave greenish picture. Using no correction got satisfied result with ColorMunki Display and my LG 50PK350 plasma display. Noticed that if contrast was set too high on LG then I got red/blue tint at whites. Reducing contrast to 70 (~ 80 cd/m2) got very nice whites and nice warm picture.
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post #907 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

Ok have i1Pro and i1 Display Pro. Also looking at getting ControlCal so I can access the gamma settings in my 8G Kuro. How do I calibrate the D3 with the i1Pro?

Zoyd? Anyone? I'm keen to get going on this over this weekend.

EDIT: Ok I think I see how to do this within HCFR although I have not attempted it yet. I can not get ver 3.0.0 working with my i1 Pro but can get it to work with ver 2.1. Zoyd, if you got an i1 Pro to work with ver 3.0.0 I'd like to know how. Is there any reason to believe that a calibration via 2.1 would be worse than via 3.0?

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post #908 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post

I eventually came to this conclusion as well with HCFR and my i1D3. Using Zoyd's correction matrix was just a tad greener than I liked. I did not have this issue when calibrating with Calman however. HCFR is still not doing something right with the i1D3 - at least not on my VT30 plasma. The Calman calibration simply looks visually better when doing A-B comparisons.
Zoyd and kjgarrison's matrices worked great on my Panasonic ST50. No green tint here. I did notice without using a correction matrix that it would tinge red in the high-end.
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post #909 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

Zoyd? Anyone? I'm keen to get going on this over this weekend.
EDIT: Ok I think I see how to do this within HCFR although I have not attempted it yet. I can not get ver 3.0.0 working with my i1 Pro but can get it to work with ver 2.1. Zoyd, if you got an i1 Pro to work with ver 3.0.0 I'd like to know how. Is there any reason to believe that a calibration via 2.1 would be worse than via 3.0?

2.1 will give the same results as the new version, I didn't do anything special to get it working in 3.0 though. Quick description of calibrating the D3 against the i1pro is here. To compute the matrix you can use the earlier linked spreadsheet or have HCFR do it under the advanced tab.

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post #910 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blwegrzyn View Post

I am using avshd disk, which patterns i should use if i output from bluray?
thx

The decision on patterns should be based on display type.

LCD/LED: fields
Plasma: windows or APL windows
All others: I don't know. I have no experience.

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post #911 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

2.1 will give the same results as the new version, I didn't do anything special to get it working in 3.0 though. Quick description of calibrating the D3 against the i1pro is here. To compute the matrix you can use the earlier linked spreadsheet or have HCFR do it under the advanced tab.

Thanks. When I try 3.0 with the i1Pro I can choose from Argyll, Simulated, DTP-94 and HCFR Sensor. The option to choose the i1Pro is not there. If I select Argyll, I get an error message "Incorrect driver - starting communications with the meter failed with severe error."

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post #912 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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That's the error I get in versions > the 1st one.

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post #913 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

That's the error I get in versions > the 1st one.

I have only installed ver 3.0.0 (and 2.1)

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post #914 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

run the calibration to sync the D3 to the plasma refresh rate before starting (just need to do once). no warm-up time or recalibration is needed, the probe automatically corrects for dark current drift.

Ok with the D3 I'm having to go back over old ground. How does one calibrate the D3 to sync to the plasma refresh rate and does one calibrate with a black or white tile (software asks for the latter).

I must be doing something wrong calibrating each of these because my HCFR calculated adjustment matrix for the D3 is


0.934430 0.037486 -0.010273
-0.028868 0.979060 -0.000215
-0.001467 0.005148 0.900400

Red was 62.771 instead of 54.076 (16.1%)
Green was 66.304 instead of 57.612 (15.1%)
Blue was 78.405 instead of 67.887 (15.5%)


But the spreadsheet is giving completely different results:

4 colour

0.999372076 0.03820187 -0.010777236
-0.030300714 1.044236514 -0.000210069
-5.48467E-05 0.004651828 0.961701778

3 colour

1.002676003 0.016116628 -0.002037746
-0.00836368 0.996690077 0.003279023
0.005687677 -0.012806705 0.998758723

Is John's spreadsheet computing XYZ adjustments (with xy inputs)? That is, is it consistent with the HCFR program?

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post #915 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by djams View Post

The decision on patterns should be based on display type.
LCD/LED: fields
Plasma: windows or APL windows
All others: I don't know. I have no experience.

I am aware of it, but there are two set of windows patters:
Calman and ColorHCFR. Not sure what is he difference.
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post #916 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 03:15 PM
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^ oh, I see.

The patterns are designed to match up with the workflow of the given software. Same patterns, different sequencing I would imagine. If using HCFR, go to the HCFR section.
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post #917 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djams View Post

^ oh, I see.
The patterns are designed to match up with the workflow of the given software. Same patterns, different sequencing I would imagine. If using HCFR, go to the HCFR section.

thx,do i need any extra settings for spyder3 express or just default?
I noticed that standard needs to be changed to HD from SD , but besides that anything else?
Do i need matrix settings?

Also, how about doing calibration through pc directy? (PC hdmi out to TV)
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post #918 of 4245 Old 08-24-2012, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blwegrzyn View Post


Also, how about doing calibration through pc directy? (PC hdmi out to TV)

You want to calibrate the video chain. The source device is a key part of that. Unless you are going to play content from your PC I wouldn't do this. Your PC will also be full RGB as opposed to studio.

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post #919 of 4245 Old 08-25-2012, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

Ok with the D3 I'm having to go back over old ground. How does one calibrate the D3 to sync to the plasma refresh rate and does one calibrate with a black or white tile (software asks for the latter).
I must be doing something wrong calibrating each of these because my HCFR calculated adjustment matrix for the D3 is

Sync by measuring a gray patch, I've found syncing at around 30% stimulus works well.

There was some discussion of this earlier but the spreadsheet 4-color correction will be different from HCFR because it does not include a correction for absolute luminance matching which is not needed in any of the dE formulas. Both should give you the same CCT.

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post #920 of 4245 Old 08-25-2012, 05:31 AM
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Thanks. To be painfully precise, "sync by measuring a gray patch" = no calibration of the D3 with black or white tile, simply hold against a 30% grey patch and hit calibrate?

"Same CCT"? Colour correction table? So with the numbers I posted there must be something way off in my calibration not in the CCT (which when enabled does indeed adjust the measured results to equal the reference as expected)?

I appreciate all the help.

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post #921 of 4245 Old 08-25-2012, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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30% patch and hit calibrate.

CCT=correlated color temp. In theory both matrices should give you the same calibration settings to reach D65

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post #922 of 4245 Old 08-25-2012, 06:34 AM
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Well I went through it all again from scratch. This is with a brand new i1D3 and a my Pioneer LX808D. My i1 Pro is a few years old now but passes its i1 diagnostics test. The i1 was calibrated by holding the aperture against black cloth. The i1D3 against a 30% grey window on the display. The results from this run aren't massively different from the one before:


0.921895 0.030260 -0.004804
-0.002891 0.930829 0.005728
0.006573 -0.001715 0.887896

Spreadsheet:

4-colour

1.00939663 0.029055042 -0.008346704
0.002198536 1.007888883 0.004777537
0.007052366 0.001230562 0.956302189

3 colour

0.988630394 0.025661302 0.002542844
0.002760768 0.98463838 0.009918698
0.008608838 -0.010299681 0.987538458

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post #923 of 4245 Old 08-25-2012, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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What xyY values do you get for each of the following in an 80% gray patch?

1. i1pro
2. D3 w/HCFR matrix
2. D3 w/4-color matrix

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post #924 of 4245 Old 08-25-2012, 09:51 AM
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i1 (0.31,0.327,64.871) i1 D3 HCFR matrix (0.309,0.326,64.54) i1 D3 4colour (0.31,0.326,70.252)

One odd thing I noticed is that when I select XYZ with the HCFR matrix then I get the exact same measures as the reference i1Pro but with other spaces (e.g. xyz or xyY) then differences appear. Shouldn't a shift in colour space representation not matter?

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post #925 of 4245 Old 08-25-2012, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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You can see that xy is very close for all three and that Y is higher with the 4-color. It is normal for an i1pro to loose some luminance over a couple of years. Use the 4-color matrix.

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post #926 of 4245 Old 08-25-2012, 12:14 PM
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So simply err on the side high side because of the loss of luminance reading? I wonder if I should get my i1 recalibrated...

By the way, O IRE (isn't that a dated term in the digital realm?) Y was -0.587 for the i1 Pro, 0.0336 for the i1 D3 HCFR and 0.04 for the i1 D3 4 colour.

I'm rather shocked to see an i1 Pro having issues reading an L* of circa 23. Something really not right there.... That's not what I would call "dark". EDIT: I had my worksheet running on the basis that luma Y was 0-1 rather than 0-100. So a reading of 0.04 is actually L* 0.4 which makes a lot more sense. Doof.

BTW has anyone been able to use Argyll to take spot emissive readings with an i1Pro? the command spotread -e works with my i1 Display Pro but I get an error message when I try to use the same command with the i1Pro "Opening USB port 'usb:/bus1/dev1/ (GretagMacbeth i1 Pro)' config 1 failed (Operation not supported or unimplemented on this platform) (Permissions ?)"

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post #927 of 4245 Old 08-26-2012, 08:09 AM
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One further question at this stage. I just realised that the Spears & Munsil blu-ray disk doesn't have the basic patterns I need for a calibration. I also don't have a blu-ray burner. I do have a few different DVDs with patterns (GetGray, one by AlluringReality etc). Any issues using a DVD to profile the BD source path (same player, same connectivity)?

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post #928 of 4245 Old 08-26-2012, 08:31 AM
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Both the AVS HD709 and GCD discs can be downloaded in AVCHD format, burned to a dvd and played from bluray player.
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post #929 of 4245 Old 08-26-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djams View Post

Both the AVS HD709 and GCD discs can be downloaded in AVCHD format, burned to a dvd and played from bluray player.

Ok then it sounds like my existing disks will be fine. I will be using one ISF setting for SD and the other ISF setting for HD.

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.
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post #930 of 4245 Old 08-26-2012, 09:00 AM
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Sorry, should have been clearer. The AVCHD end up being a bluray format, even though its burned to dvd. I'd recommend downloading one of them.

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