HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 4098 Old 11-22-2012, 03:27 AM
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I'm a new owner of i1Display Pro unit and I can say this to answer your questions:
- I have successfully calibrated my HDTV using i1Display Pro + HCFR 3.0.4.0 and the results are the best I've ever had (far better than my old Spyder2);
- X-Rite i1Profiler has a REC.709 preset but i1Profiler relies on ICC profiles that you can't use in your TV. HCFR id better suited for TV with it's gray scale measurement etc;
- In HTPC, if you use i1Profiler, then you don't need those video files. I calibrated my HDTV with i1Display Pro + HCFR v3.0.4.0 + AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration files fond here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration

To sum it up, I'm very glad I purchased i1Display Pro and was able to calibrate my HDTV better than ever before.
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post #1082 of 4098 Old 11-22-2012, 03:59 AM
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Hi bytec,

This helps grately. So I know that I can buy the pro, download this software, can definetly be able to calibrate my tv with those 2 items. I don't need calman?

If you don't mind I have a few more questions.

I will be calibrating my HDTV but I will be using my HDPC as the device to calibrate from as I use it the most.

I will be using the mp4 files (playing from the HTPC player) to display each colour etc for the meter to read.

I will then adjust the tv controls to make the colour more accurate and get the meter to re read it? Is this correct.

Do you have any tips on how I should go about it using the mp4 files..

Any steps you recommend or you got stuck on that could save me time...

For example,
I intend on connecting the pro to my laptop. Then hanging it on the tv.
I then will set the software to look for perfect red/green/blue etc through the device and I will play these files via the media player and will calibrate the tv controls until the meter reeads close to perfect.

Do you have any tips I could use or guide or a good work flow that you follow..

Step 1 do this
Step 2 do that etc...

smile.gif

I know this is asking a lot but I hope with some help I will be able to do this correctly and don't want to end up doing it all wrong :-/

Any advice you can offer will be really appreciated as I am new to calibration and will no doubt make a few mistakes.

Thanks again for the help,
Ian

Edit:
Does anyone have advice for calibrating Xbox or ps3 or game mode on a tv? Do you calibrate the Xbox to the same calibrations or is there a RGB colour profile calibration available?
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post #1083 of 4098 Old 11-22-2012, 04:44 AM
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In this case of HTPC I would combine two calibration approaches for the best result.

1. I would calibrate HDTV with HCFR + AVS HD 709 MP4 Calibration files to get HDTV hardware settings as accurate as possible;
2. Then I would calibrate with i1Profiler (REC709 preset) to get software correction (ICC profile) for any small errors in color rendering.

When I calibrate color with HCFR I use this method:
0. Reset and readjust brightness and contrast by eye using AVS HD 709 MP4 Calibration files (black and white clipping).
1. Reset TV white balance;
2. Measure 30% grey and adjust RGB offset controls so that they are as close to the standard as possible.
3. Measure 80% or 90% grey and adjust RGB gain controls so that they are as close to the standard as possible.
4. Repeat steps 2. and 3. to make fine adjustments because offset and gain controls are interactive (I had to do ~7 iterations in my case until I was happy with the result).
5. Measure whole grey scale in 10% steps to see overall picture.
6. Maybe revisit previous steps, but at some point you have to give up, because you will not get Delta E=0 on entire gray scale. I choose to sacrifice dark color (<30% gray) precision.

When I adjust RGB controls I use the same good practice as in audio equalization - try to reduce what is too much without amplifying other parts.
So If I have too much blue, then I reduce blue channel and not amplify R and G if possible. You have to play with those controls for a bit.
I recommend using continuous measures window, so you can see the results of adjusting RGB controls.
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post #1084 of 4098 Old 11-22-2012, 05:07 AM
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Hi,
Thank you very much for this info, it's very very helpful. This gives me a good head start smile.gif

I have a question re: the 2 calibrations though, do you mean that I should use the profiler calibration to create a profile for my HTPC or my gfx card (ATI 6320HD).

Should I calibrate the tv first, then calibrate the gfx card, then recheck the tv after this profile has been created or have I mis understood smile.gif

The tv will be used for HTPC and Xbox/ps3 only.
HTPC is ati 6320hd set to ycbcr 4:4:4
Xbox is set to auto which is for games only and usually therefore send RGB.

I have HTPC set on movie and Xbox set on game. However both go via my AVR which is set to pass through and not convert or touch video in any way.

So ideally I want to calibrate movie mode to rec 709 and game mode to RGB for perfect RGB gaming? Or will game mode be better calibrated to rev709 too?

For me it seems like my best option is to play mp4 test files via my media player, then as you say, have the meter read the info in real time and adjust accordingly... Get my grey and colours as accurate as possible for rec709 movies.

But then I get lost smile.gif

Should I then calibrate / profile my gfx card and how would I calibrate the Xbox? I have the Xbox app that is for calibration to play the colours etc (from Xbox app store) and would my device and this software allow me to calibrate for RGB or is this not possible and should I always calibrate to rec709.

Thanks again for your time, sorry for all the questions but your support is hugely appreciated and extremely helpful for me smile.gif

Ian
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post #1085 of 4098 Old 11-22-2012, 05:22 AM
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Use your HTPC to calibrate your TV to Rec. 709 that will also be used for your Xbox and other devices.

Then calibrate with i1Profiler to get additional precision via ICC profile (remember to choose Rec. 709 preset), that will be used by your HTPC gfx card.

So all your devices will use one TV that is calibrated to Rec. 709, but HTPC will have a little bonus precision because it can use ICC profiles that allow finer control.

If you have any picture controls in your other devices I recommend to reset them to defaults (I assume you are using HDMI for all devices).

As you calibrate watch for the Delta E value. You want it to be as low as possible for every gray scale step.
Generally speaking Delta E of 3 or even 4 is acceptable.

P.S.
I managed to get my TV's Delta E ~2 most of the gray scale was Delta E ~1.
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post #1086 of 4098 Old 11-22-2012, 06:50 AM
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ICC profile do not allow finer control, and often cause problem with black levels...

The problem is that ICC profiles are not really made for display calibration in the way used for TV/Cinema.

We come across this all the time in the professional film and TV industry...

That's one reason for SpaceMatch DCM as it avoids ICC profiles, instead using LUTs.

But, and it is a BIG but - the way graphics cards use ICC profiles and LUTs is 1D only - so THERE IS NO GAMUT CONTROL.

As a result, the 'calibration' is grey scale only.

Steve Shaw
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post #1087 of 4098 Old 11-22-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

ICC profile do not allow finer control, and often cause problem with black levels...
The problem is that ICC profiles are not really made for display calibration in the way used for TV/Cinema.
We come across this all the time in the professional film and TV industry...
That's one reason for SpaceMatch DCM as it avoids ICC profiles, instead using LUTs.
But, and it is a BIG but - the way graphics cards use ICC profiles and LUTs is 1D only - so THERE IS NO GAMUT CONTROL.
As a result, the 'calibration' is grey scale only.

Except when there is.
http://voxelium.wordpress.com/2010/09/20/icc-color-management-in-media-player-classic-home-cinema/

MPC-HC supports using ICC profiles including the 3D-LUT type and not just the matrix type to do color correction on video.

But the basic calibration of a windows PC can allow grayscale and gamma calibration and that doesn't even use ICC profile, in fact windows really doesn't really support the vcgt tag, you can just write the 1D LUTs directly, but I'm sure you already new that.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
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post #1088 of 4098 Old 11-22-2012, 08:45 AM
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While that sounds very interesting... I have no idea what you just said biggrin.gif

Ok, so far this has been hugely helpful.. Both you guys have cleared up a great deal.

So what I will do is miss the icc profile off for the time being and focus on the initial calibration.


Now,
I believe my tv only accepts 16/235 and therefore my devices are all set to standard (pc is ycbcr 4:4:4) which I believe is 16-235, Xbox standard, and ps3 limited.

So,
I will use the HTPC via hdmi set to ycbcr 4:4:4 so play the mp4 files and calibrate via this software found in here.

Upon doing so, I will adjust the colours etc until delta is below 3.

Now, unfortunately my display does not have the 10pt grey scale stuff, only basic colour temp cpntrols (with an individual RGB slider) and it has a basic CMS that allows RBGCYM brightness, saturation and hue controls. It also has basic tint, colour, brightness and contrast.

I have no gamma control and no 10pt ire frown.gif

So I will be limited.
I can't access the service menu to see what's in there either.. Tv is a toshiba and I tried all the service menu access ways but they are old and this is a new tv (bottom of range) but none of the service menu codes work on it.

With such basic controls, I will be limited (hence my reluctance to spend to much) but these pointers will be invaluable.

Now,
Once my tv have been calibrated via my HTPC on "Movie" mode I also need to calibrate "Game" mode for games...

How do I do this?
Do I just follow the same procedure and just have the HTPC send the same mp4 images and just change the picture setting from "movie" to "game" or do I use the actual console so send the mp4 this time?

When I calibrate the game mode, and the console, I still calibrate to the 709 standard even though the console sends RGB? Is this correct?

Thanks again fl all this help, I really do apologise in advance if I seem stupid or asking silly questions, but I just want to get prepped before I delve into this. I will order the pro and when I get it (Xmas) I will post back some images if you guys don't mind helping me with advice on how to get a better picture etc as you might see something I don't in the graphs etc..

Also,
Is it worth purchasing the calman? Is it with $150 in comparison to this software? Will I see $150 worth of difference in the calibration? For a newbie at calibration, is HCFR simple enough to use?

Thanks again for all the support this has really helped me feel like someone just threw me a rubber ring while I was drowning biggrin.gif
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post #1089 of 4098 Old 11-22-2012, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Except when there is.
http://voxelium.wordpress.com/2010/09/20/icc-color-management-in-media-player-classic-home-cinema/

MPC-HC supports using ICC profiles including the 3D-LUT type and not just the matrix type to do color correction on video.

But the basic calibration of a windows PC can allow grayscale and gamma calibration and that doesn't even use ICC profile, in fact windows really doesn't really support the vcgt tag, you can just write the 1D LUTs directly, but I'm sure you already new that.

Yep, just have a look at SpaceMan ICC. One of the more advanced ICC based colour management systems.

It is Spaceman that has shown the associated problems with ICC profiles for display calibration - they really do not work - 3D LUT or Matrix based.
The problems is a lack of control over shadows/blacks - as can be seen by the addition of 'Use Black Point Compensation' in many systems that use ICC profiles...

It's a problem we come across again and again - and we have been called in to 'fix' a number of high-end films that got caught out by this...

eek.gif

Ian, as for the calibration, just follow the 'Initial Display Calibration' directions.
It really doesn't matter what image level you have, so long as the source and display match!

Steve

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post #1090 of 4098 Old 11-22-2012, 12:46 PM
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Thanks for the info, some of it is over my head but I really do hope to learn more about this and really do appreciate all this info.

I'm gonna stay away from the icc profiles for the time being, as it sounds they are more hassle than they are worth, therefore I will only calibrate the HDTV and leave profiles for another day smile.gif

If you guys don't mind could you also help me out with 1 other question, as the xrite software doesn't support HDTV calibration, and I'm going to use different software anyway, would I be better getting the colormunki display, as its basically the exact same hardware, but much cheaper... Bearing in mind I'm gonna be using it with other software.

By doing this I can save a few bucks and then maybe put that toward calman or chromapure at a later date.

Will the xrite colormunki display do the same with the HCFR software as the pro would?

Also,
Will I be able to get close to a decent calibration even without all these 10pt controls or gamma control? In fact, does anyone know toshibas new service menu code smile.gif
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post #1091 of 4098 Old 11-23-2012, 02:54 AM
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Hi Ian,

I can't help with the Service Codes, or the CalMan/ChromaPure question - we obviously use LightSpace CMS.

As for a probe, I would go with an i1 Display Pro OEM.

Steve

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post #1092 of 4098 Old 11-23-2012, 06:56 AM
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Hi Steve,

Due to a limited budget, i think I'm gonna get a munki display and use the free software here. From the spec, it seems that the munki display is exactly the same as a pro so for me this should suffice.

It saves me over £80 for the device and over £200 on software.

Will this give me a reasonable calibration for a home user? Better than eye balling it at least?
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post #1093 of 4098 Old 11-23-2012, 07:10 AM
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Hy there,

can i Calibrate with the X-rite i1 Display Pro and hcfr Software my Plasma??


go it??

txs
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post #1094 of 4098 Old 11-23-2012, 07:37 AM
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yes
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post #1095 of 4098 Old 11-23-2012, 09:35 AM
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txs:-)))
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post #1096 of 4098 Old 11-23-2012, 10:31 AM
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john

How do I get rid of all traces of the Argyll drivers? I want to go back to the usb version but every time I uninstall the DPT-94 meter and plug it in, it sees it as an Argyll DPT-94 and will only use the Argyll drivers!!


bob
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post #1097 of 4098 Old 11-23-2012, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

john
How do I get rid of all traces of the Argyll drivers? I want to go back to the usb version but every time I uninstall the DPT-94 meter and plug it in, it sees it as an Argyll DPT-94 and will only use the Argyll drivers!!
bob

If you are using Windows, simply get into the device manager and change the driver.

Larry
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post #1098 of 4098 Old 11-24-2012, 04:30 AM
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Hi guys, altough I read that HCFR (3.0.4.0) should work with a new i1pro 2 and wont get it to work. Even with the newest Argyll drivers HCFR still reports "Incorrect driver - Starting communications with the meter failed with severe error. Argyll Error".
Tried using the X-rite driver, the driver in the HCFR package and the newest Argyll driver. The i1pro 2 works fine in Argyll and iProfiler. A i1 display pro works fine with HCFR so I dont think the software is damaged. Can someone tell me how he got it to work?

Update: Just found out that 3.0.0.0 seems to work, any idea where to post the bug that it stopped working in 3.0.4.0, or is there a workaround?

Update 2: Looks like it stopped working in 3.0.1.0
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post #1099 of 4098 Old 12-01-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Beale View Post

Hi bytec,
This helps grately. So I know that I can buy the pro, download this software, can definetly be able to calibrate my tv with those 2 items. I don't need calman?
If you don't mind I have a few more questions.
I will be calibrating my HDTV but I will be using my HDPC as the device to calibrate from as I use it the most.
I will be using the mp4 files (playing from the HTPC player) to display each colour etc for the meter to read.
I will then adjust the tv controls to make the colour more accurate and get the meter to re read it? Is this correct.
Do you have any tips on how I should go about it using the mp4 files..
Any steps you recommend or you got stuck on that could save me time...
For example,
I intend on connecting the pro to my laptop. Then hanging it on the tv.
I then will set the software to look for perfect red/green/blue etc through the device and I will play these files via the media player and will calibrate the tv controls until the meter reeads close to perfect.
Do you have any tips I could use or guide or a good work flow that you follow..
Step 1 do this
Step 2 do that etc...
smile.gif
I know this is asking a lot but I hope with some help I will be able to do this correctly and don't want to end up doing it all wrong :-/
Any advice you can offer will be really appreciated as I am new to calibration and will no doubt make a few mistakes.
Thanks again for the help,
Ian
Edit:
Does anyone have advice for calibrating Xbox or ps3 or game mode on a tv? Do you calibrate the Xbox to the same calibrations or is there a RGB colour profile calibration available?
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=118480

THE ALL MIGHTY MACACASIAH HAS SPOKEN!
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post #1100 of 4098 Old 12-03-2012, 06:15 PM
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Am I hearing this right?

The latest version of HCFR does not work with i1 Display 3?

And John disappeared?
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post #1101 of 4098 Old 12-03-2012, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Am I hearing this right?
The latest version of HCFR does not work with i1 Display 3?
And John disappeared?


The i1 Display Pro (i1D3) colorimeter works with HCFR version 3.

It's the i1 Pro spectrometer that does not work with version 3.0.4.0. It does work with 3.0.0.0, however.

Larry
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post #1102 of 4098 Old 12-04-2012, 02:20 PM
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"colormunki smile" support would be fabulous.
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post #1103 of 4098 Old 12-04-2012, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klumpad View Post

Hi guys, altough I read that HCFR (3.0.4.0) should work with a new i1pro 2 and wont get it to work. Even with the newest Argyll drivers HCFR still reports "Incorrect driver - Starting communications with the meter failed with severe error. Argyll Error".
Tried using the X-rite driver, the driver in the HCFR package and the newest Argyll driver. The i1pro 2 works fine in Argyll and iProfiler. A i1 display pro works fine with HCFR so I dont think the software is damaged. Can someone tell me how he got it to work?
Update: Just found out that 3.0.0.0 seems to work, any idea where to post the bug that it stopped working in 3.0.4.0, or is there a workaround?
Update 2: Looks like it stopped working in 3.0.1.0

I have the same issue here.
  • Instrument: i1 Pro 2 ("Publish" bundle). The device presents itself as an i1 Pro (version 1) to the Argyll drivers as expected. NOTE: this is not an i1 DISPLAY Pro, they are different devices.
  • Argyll driver version: tested various versions with HCFR up to the latest Argyll Ver. 1.4.0.
  • Instrument works fine with Argyll CMS tools up to Ver. 1.4.0.
  • HCFR 3.0.0.0 works (up to latest Argyll Ver. 1.4.0 drivers).
  • HCFR 3.0.1.0 - 3.0.4.0 does not work with i1 Pro 2 (and likely not with i1 Pro). Previous versions of Argyll drivers do not correct.
  • OS: Tested on WinXP Pro 32 bit and Win7 Pro 64 bit.

I have currently gone back to HCFR 3.0.0.0 and that's working fine, but I'm willing to test any future versions of HCFR with the i1 Pro 2 (if anyone is working on this issue).

Otherwise, I love the software!
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post #1104 of 4098 Old 12-09-2012, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apierre View Post

I have the same issue here.
  • Instrument: i1 Pro 2 ("Publish" bundle). The device presents itself as an i1 Pro (version 1) to the Argyll drivers as expected. NOTE: this is not an i1 DISPLAY Pro, they are different devices.
  • Argyll driver version: tested various versions with HCFR up to the latest Argyll Ver. 1.4.0.
  • Instrument works fine with Argyll CMS tools up to Ver. 1.4.0.
  • HCFR 3.0.0.0 works (up to latest Argyll Ver. 1.4.0 drivers).
  • HCFR 3.0.1.0 - 3.0.4.0 does not work with i1 Pro 2 (and likely not with i1 Pro). Previous versions of Argyll drivers do not correct.
  • OS: Tested on WinXP Pro 32 bit and Win7 Pro 64 bit.
I have currently gone back to HCFR 3.0.0.0 and that's working fine, but I'm willing to test any future versions of HCFR with the i1 Pro 2 (if anyone is working on this issue).
Otherwise, I love the software!


Same problem here. How do I totally remove the "Argyll" drivers from my laptop?

bob
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post #1105 of 4098 Old 12-10-2012, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Same problem here. How do I totally remove the "Argyll" drivers from my laptop?
bob

Follow the instructions here: http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/Installing_MSWindows.html
Near the bottom of the page it explains how to uninstall as part of the "Updating Argyll drivers" section.
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post #1106 of 4098 Old 12-11-2012, 08:12 PM
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Hey guys, quick question.

I am using version 3.0.4.0, and when I went to measure Grayscale it looks like HCFR generated the patterns and measured my entire grayscale within seconds. I am using the i1D3.

It's been close to a year since I last used HCFR. Is this how HFCR measures grayscale now?

Also, I got stuck at the trying to calibrate Green color gamut. I max out my green saturation but couldn't still get it to the desired level. Anyone else having problem with Green?



Here are some pics of the greyscale.











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post #1107 of 4098 Old 12-11-2012, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Hey guys, quick question.
I am using version 3.0.4.0, and when I went to measure Grayscale it looks like HCFR generated the patterns and measured my entire grayscale within seconds. I am using the i1D3.
It's been close to a year since I last used HCFR. Is this how HFCR measures grayscale now?
Also, I got stuck at the trying to calibrate Green color gamut. I max out my green saturation but couldn't still get it to the desired level. Anyone else having problem with Green?
Here are some pics of the greyscale.
[

How does it generate the images? You use the same computer for measuring and generating ??

bob
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post #1108 of 4098 Old 12-11-2012, 10:02 PM
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Yes, I use my HTPC with XBMC as my source for calibrating and displaying patterns.
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post #1109 of 4098 Old 12-12-2012, 05:14 AM
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smokarz what type of display did you have ? why you don't you use AVS HD 709 disc pattern instead of internal HCFR pattern ?
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post #1110 of 4098 Old 12-12-2012, 06:03 AM
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I am using AVSHD greyscale, saturation patterns, etc. to do the calibration.

But when I go take the greayscale measurement, HCFR didn't even prompts me to display the 0%, 10%, 20% greyscale etc.

In the past, with HCFR it prompt me to display each greyscale. It seems to automatically display its own pattterns and take the measurements extremely quickly.

Unless, I am doing something incorrectly.
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