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post #2071 of 4158 Old 06-15-2013, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wl1 View Post

My experience of electronic manufacturing (Automotive) is very different to your description. Every component entering our production is QA verified by the supplier, and 100% of assemblies have various testing and inspections throughout the assembly process. In-Circuit Testing, and System level Functional checks on the final assembly is the norm. I am sure it would be the same with any electronic assembly process.

XRite Tech Support confirmed that EVERY unit is calibrated using reference quality meters, as previous poster mentioned.

I am surprised that you think build and ship attitude could be part of any manufacturers business plan these days. They wouldn't last a year.

I'm not familiar with how the automotive industry handles QA, but it doesn't surprise me to hear that those things are individually checked and tested. But then again we're talking about electronics in something that can cause loss of life and injury. I'm not familiar with the how the companies that build medical equipment handle QA either, but I'm guessing they are also checking and testing everything that goes out. Again because these things can cause loss of life or injury.

I think you'd be surprised just how many electronics companies do not check and test every item on the assembly line. The majority of the large electronics companies are only testing a certain number in a batch. If those pass, then they just assume the batch is good. Apple for example does not test every computer or iOS device that goes through the assembly process. It's too time consuming which causes a slow production build and costs too much, which eats into margins. This is a pretty standard thing today and Apple has lasted a lot longer than a year and is one of the largest companies on the planet. I don't totally agree with it, especially when I buy something and there's something wrong with it right out of the box, but that's just how a lot of companies do it these days.

To get somewhat back on topic, I'll be calibrating 5 new TVs in our office over the next few weeks and look forward to toying around with it all again!
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post #2072 of 4158 Old 06-15-2013, 07:02 PM
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Hey, just a few questions for people calibrating LCDs: is there a specific gamma you aim for? Is there an actual reference or do you have to adjust based on the TV characteristics? Is there a "correct" gamma to use when your TV has a slightly disappointing black level?

I've seen people say flat 2.20, 2.22, 2.25, 2.35, between 2.20 and 2.30 on all points, 2.20/2.22/2.25 with the "display gamma with black compensation" option chosen, etc. The closest I've found to concrete information is people saying that a flat 2.20 is the reference for CRTs, but then others say 2.35 or 2.5 is the actual CRT reference. I just made a setup using a target of 2.22 with black compensation, and that seems like the darkest I could go while still retaining some of the darker shadow details. And, comparing that with my settings for a flat 2.25 makes the 2.25 seem like it might be too dark to be realistic, but the black compensation seems like it might gray/dull the picture a little too much. I just don't know what's "right" or if there even is a "right" answer.
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post #2073 of 4158 Old 06-15-2013, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

I think you'd be surprised just how many electronics companies do not check and test every item on the assembly line. The majority of the large electronics companies are only testing a certain number in a batch. If those pass, then they just assume the batch is good. Apple for example does not test every computer or iOS device that goes through the assembly process. It's too time consuming which causes a slow production build and costs too much, which eats into margins. This is a pretty standard thing today and Apple has lasted a lot longer than a year and is one of the largest companies on the planet. I don't totally agree with it, especially when I buy something and there's something wrong with it right out of the box, but that's just how a lot of companies do it these days.

Sorry for being offtopic..

I think it's the other way around, now days it's easier and more efficient to check things individually than before..

I build my computer, every single parts have a round QC sticker, this indicate that every single one of them have been inspected and passed their standard. Even the case have this round QC sticker with a hand written number by the chinese worker that inspect it.

From what I know, each and every PC processor and RAM will need to be checked individually to assign their clock speed. The one that didn't pass their max potential speed will be clocked lower and sold as a lower range product. There will always be imperfections created in the production process. CMIIW.

Apple are actually checking each and every iPhone sold.. Individually..
It's very simple for them, since every iPhone needs to be plugged in to install the firmware, they just run a software check for defect after that..
AFAIK, they are very strict with QC, one of the most strict electronic brand out there..
Hell, they even check the CASING for each and every iPhone..
http://bgr.com/2012/10/05/iphone-5-foxconn-workers-strike-quality-control-measures-cited/
http://www.cultofmac.com/195221/iphone-5-production-rates-fall-as-apple-increases-quality-control-at-foxconn/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-10/apple-choice-of-iphone-aluminum-said-to-slow-down-output.html
They are willing to lose US $60 billion market value by sending iPhone 5 late, just to make sure that each and every iPhone don't have a single chip or nicks on their aluminum casing..

Of course there will be some that don't follow the standard.. But they are in the minority.. Even my cheap ass mouse that I use in the office have a QC sticker with a hand written number..

IMHO, now days, most electronics that are D.O.A. are caused by shipping and handling..
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post #2074 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 12:57 AM
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"during the ABC video there was mention of automated instructions being broadcast to the line. This implies that each worker is working on a “clock cycle” and each work stage is timed to take an equal amount of time. This clock cycle time is crucial in understanding the cost structure. One further clue to this cycle time comes from the iPad output rate per worker. This was mentioned in the slide show to be up to 6,000 units per day. Assuming 10 hours of working time per day means 600 units per hour or 10 per minute. This seems extremely high as the worker would have to handle the product for only six seconds. [UPDATE: Apple clarified this point: "In manufacturing parlance this is called deburring. Her line processes 3,000 units per shift, with two shifts per day for a total of 6,000. A single operator at Ms. Zhou’s station would deburr 3,000 iPads in a shift"]"

6 seconds to test that device doesn't sound like a lot of time to me. Being able to see a scratch on the device and actually testing whether or not all components of the device are actually working to spec are two different things. That QC sticker you're seeing only means that the device passed what they were supposed to check for. If they're only supposed to check for scratches, that doesn't do much for how the individual parts of the device actually function. I saw that sticker on the last pair of jeans I bought. What does that mean? Did they wear them? What did they actually do with those jeans that allowed them to put that sticker on?

And I'm an "Apple guy", so I'm not just trying to bash the company. I know for a fact that Apple does not test each and every device that comes off the line.

If anyone would like to discuss any of this further, just PM me so we don't hijack this thread.
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post #2075 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 02:55 AM
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I gave examples based on my experiences in electronic manufacturing, also quoting XRite technical support indicating all units are tested and calibrated to reference meters.

You gave your opinion, lets agree to differ.
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post #2076 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

"during the ABC video there was mention of automated instructions being broadcast to the line. This implies that each worker is working on a “clock cycle” and each work stage is timed to take an equal amount of time. This clock cycle time is crucial in understanding the cost structure. One further clue to this cycle time comes from the iPad output rate per worker. This was mentioned in the slide show to be up to 6,000 units per day. Assuming 10 hours of working time per day means 600 units per hour or 10 per minute. This seems extremely high as the worker would have to handle the product for only six seconds. [UPDATE: Apple clarified this point: "In manufacturing parlance this is called deburring. Her line processes 3,000 units per shift, with two shifts per day for a total of 6,000. A single operator at Ms. Zhou’s station would deburr 3,000 iPads in a shift"]"

6 seconds to test that device doesn't sound like a lot of time to me. Being able to see a scratch on the device and actually testing whether or not all components of the device are actually working to spec are two different things. That QC sticker you're seeing only means that the device passed what they were supposed to check for. If they're only supposed to check for scratches, that doesn't do much for how the individual parts of the device actually function. I saw that sticker on the last pair of jeans I bought. What does that mean? Did they wear them? What did they actually do with those jeans that allowed them to put that sticker on?

And I'm an "Apple guy", so I'm not just trying to bash the company. I know for a fact that Apple does not test each and every device that comes off the line.

If anyone would like to discuss any of this further, just PM me so we don't hijack this thread.

I'm an "Android guy" smile.gif
So I should bash the company.. tongue.gif But I don't. smile.gif
PM'ed you for the explanations, especially the jeans.. wink.gif
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post #2077 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Hey HCFR devs,

the latest madVR v0.86.4 build (just released) now supports remote controlled test patterns. Would you consider adding support to HCFR for this?

If you look into the "developers" folder shipping with madVR, you'll find a header and cpp file for this, plus a very simple demo application which demonstrates how to do this. It's really very simple. The header/cpp uses dynamic linking, so there's no problem if madVR is not installed, and it should (hopefully) work for any C++ compiler. I've only tested with MSVC++, though.

If you have any questions, or any feature wishes, or if you want anything changed, just let me know...

Hi madshi - thanks for this feature. I started implementing it into HCFR and the grayscale measures is working. I have two problems:

1. For color measures, red displays fine at all saturations but green and blue do not. For example, if I send [0, 1.0, 0.] I get a cyan screen (basically I get cyan or white for anything that isn't exactly gray or red channel only.

2. blind connect leaves some thread open so colorhcfr hangs on exit, it also doesn't return when madVR is not available.

thanks!
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post #2078 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 11:04 AM
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Thanks for working on this! smile.gif

1. This is fixed in v0.86.5, released an hour ago or so.
2. I'll look into that. Did you tell madVR to search the LAN? Do the other connect APIs (e.g. ConnectDialog) work without these issues?
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post #2079 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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The connect dialog works fine. Symptoms of blind connect are:

With madVR running:
1. On first pattern run attempt nothing happens.
2. Second pattern run attempt is fine.
3. HCFR errors on exit with a "bad argument" message and the process hangs

With madVR not running:
1. On any pattern run attempt nothing happens.
2. HCFR errors on exit with a "bad argument" message and the process hangs
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post #2080 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 11:53 AM
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I wasn't able to reproduce it with the little demo shipping with madVR. But I've made some changes that might help. Does this one fix the problem?

http://madshi.net/madHcNet32.rar
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post #2081 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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That got it, nice. Colors are correct too. Small bug in progress bar, it won't display for 100% Green, Blue, or Cyan. I'll post a test version for folks to play with in a little bit.
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post #2082 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 01:36 PM
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Cool! When your test version is out, I'll test the problem with the progress bar and release a new madVR build with a fix for that and the updated madHcNet32.dll.
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post #2083 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by vlix View Post

I'm an "Android guy" smile.gif
So I should bash the company.. tongue.gif But I don't. smile.gif
PM'ed you for the explanations, especially the jeans.. wink.gif

Thanks for the PM. You really got serious about those jeans! smile.gif
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post #2084 of 4158 Old 06-16-2013, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Cool! When your test version is out, I'll test the problem with the progress bar and release a new madVR build with a fix for that and the updated madHcNet32.dll.

The progress bar was not really a bug, it just doesn't display anything when sent the integer 0.. I still need to send the sequence numbers, right now I just send "42".

Here is a test version, drop all files into your current HCFR directory. To set output for madVR go to generator->view images (or from menu measures->generator->configure) and check the madVR button. In my limited testing HCFR generated patterns measured very close to madVR ones however it seemed like the 3dlut was always disabled even though I don't call that function.

HCFR Calibration.rar
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post #2085 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

The progress bar was not really a bug, it just doesn't display anything when sent the integer 0.. I still need to send the sequence numbers, right now I just send "42".

Here is a test version, drop all files into your current HCFR directory. To set output for madVR go to generator->view images (or from menu measures->generator->configure) and check the madVR button. In my limited testing HCFR generated patterns measured very close to madVR ones however it seemed like the 3dlut was always disabled even though I don't call that function.

HCFR Calibration.rar

Thanks!! smile.gif

I can confirm the 3dlut not being applied as a bug. Will fix that.

On a quick test run with HCFR here's what I found:

(1) For every measured color in a set of measurements you seem to be doing the sequence of "madVR_BlindConnect", "madVR_ShowProgressBar", "madVR_ShowRGB" and "madVR_Disconnect". While this works, it's not as I intended it, and it results in the progress bar not moving forward in any way. Furthermore "madVR_BlindConnect" could sometimes take a bit of time, especially if it's a LAN connection. The intended way to use the APIs is to call "madVR_BlindConnect" and "madVR_ShowProgressBar" only once, before you start doing a series of measurements (e.g. 42). Then you're supposed to call "madVR_ShowRGB" in a row 42 times, followed by one call to "madVR_Disconnect". This way the progress bar will nicely progress from 1/42 up to 42/42. And of course if the set of measurements is smaller, the call to "madVR_ShowProgressBar" should be given the exact number of "madVR_ShowRGB" calls that will follow, instead of always using "42".

(2) I had thought madVR would appear as a fourth option besides "View images", "HCFR Generator" and "DVD manual". When it didn't appear there, I first thought you had uploaded the wrong files, until I found it hidden as a sub-option of "View images". Of course it works this way, too. However, it's quite hidden this way and none of the "View images" property fields make any sense for madVR. So I'm wondering whether it wouldn't be a better solution to make it a separate option from "View images"? If you do that, the property sheet could be empty. Or optionally you could also offer a configuration like this:
Code:
o automatically select madVR instance  (radio box -> madVR_BlindConnect)
o manually select madVR instance  (radio box -> madVR_ConnectDialog)

x search LAN  (check box -> BlindConnect/ConnectDialog "searchLan" parameter)

I don't want to put too much work on your hands, though. If it's much easier for you to just have madVR as a sub option of "View images", that's alright with me.

BTW, and this is totally unrelated to madVR: It seems that HCFR doesn't ever remember anything I select or change. Everytime I start HCFR I have to reconfigure everything, including GUI language, meter configuration etc etc. Is that "by design"? Or is there something wrong with my installation (e.g. missing write access to registry or something)? Ideally I'd like HCFR to not ask me for the language every time it starts, and I'd like to remember and preselect every option the same way I left it the last time. That would save a lot of time.
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post #2086 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 03:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Thanks!! smile.gif

I can confirm the 3dlut not being applied as a bug. Will fix that.

On a quick test run with HCFR here's what I found:

(1) For every measured color in a set of measurements you seem to be doing the sequence of "madVR_BlindConnect", "madVR_ShowProgressBar", "madVR_ShowRGB" and "madVR_Disconnect". While this works, it's not as I intended it, and it results in the progress bar not moving forward in any way. Furthermore "madVR_BlindConnect" could sometimes take a bit of time, especially if it's a LAN connection. The intended way to use the APIs is to call "madVR_BlindConnect" and "madVR_ShowProgressBar" only once, before you start doing a series of measurements (e.g. 42). Then you're supposed to call "madVR_ShowRGB" in a row 42 times, followed by one call to "madVR_Disconnect". This way the progress bar will nicely progress from 1/42 up to 42/42. And of course if the set of measurements is smaller, the call to "madVR_ShowProgressBar" should be given the exact number of "madVR_ShowRGB" calls that will follow, instead of always using "42".

I'm not as fast a coder as you.wink.gif Download again and this is fixed, only one connect per pattern set and correct total number of patterns is sent.
Quote:
(2) I had thought madVR would appear as a fourth option besides "View images", "HCFR Generator" and "DVD manual". When it didn't appear there, I first thought you had uploaded the wrong files, until I found it hidden as a sub-option of "View images". Of course it works this way, too. However, it's quite hidden this way and none of the "View images" property fields make any sense for madVR. So I'm wondering whether it wouldn't be a better solution to make it a separate option from "View images"? If you do that, the property sheet could be empty. Or optionally you could also offer a configuration like this:
Code:
o automatically select madVR instance  (radio box -> madVR_BlindConnect)
o manually select madVR instance  (radio box -> madVR_ConnectDialog)

x search LAN  (check box -> BlindConnect/ConnectDialog "searchLan" parameter)

I don't want to put too much work on your hands, though. If it's much easier for you to just have madVR as a sub option of "View images", that's alright with me.

yeah, that's all I could manage at the moment, will consider fine tuning options later.

Quote:
BTW, and this is totally unrelated to madVR: It seems that HCFR doesn't ever remember anything I select or change. Everytime I start HCFR I have to reconfigure everything, including GUI language, meter configuration etc etc. Is that "by design"? Or is there something wrong with my installation (e.g. missing write access to registry or something)? Ideally I'd like HCFR to not ask me for the language every time it starts, and I'd like to remember and preselect every option the same way I left it the last time. That would save a lot of time.

You need to set the program to run as administrator for the ini file to get saved.
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post #2087 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 04:18 AM
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Ah, looking good now! smile.gif One minor issue: When "measuring gray scale, primary and secondary colors", the progress bar goes to 19, but HCFR is only doing 17 measurements.
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post #2088 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 04:56 AM - Thread Starter
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ok, will check. I'd like to have a separate generator properties page for full madVR configuration but it will take a little longer. Feature request, add two parameters ShowRGB - % area of pattern and % gray background, is it doable? I like to run mpc full screen so borders don't cause image retention on my plasma and the gray background is useful for generating even loading on the ABL circuit. 22% is a "typical" load for average content.
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post #2089 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

ok, will check.

Also found: Primary measurements are only 4 while progress bar says 5. And secondary measurements are only 7 while progress bar says 8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I'd like to have a separate generator properties page for full madVR configuration but it will take a little longer.

That would be very nice, but it's not urgent. After starting HCFR with admin rights, it remembers that it's supposed to use madVR, which makes things less painful than I originally experienced.

Quote:
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Feature request, add two parameters ShowRGB - % area of pattern and % gray background, is it doable? I like to run mpc full screen so borders don't cause image retention on my plasma and the gray background is useful for generating even loading on the ABL circuit. 22% is a "typical" load for average content.

Will add that to my to do list. 22% would be area of pattern? If madVR window size is e.g. 1920x1080 and you tell me 22% area of pattern - how big would the RGB color test rectangle be exactly (in x and y pixels)? Would that be 22% of 1920 = 422 pixels width? Or would 22% be the area (x * y)? And 50% gray background, would that mean an RGB value of 128,128,128? Meaning 50% in gamma corrected light, right?
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post #2090 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post


Will add that to my to do list. 22% would be area of pattern? If madVR window size is e.g. 1920x1080 and you tell me 22% area of pattern - how big would the RGB color test rectangle be exactly (in x and y pixels)? Would that be 22% of 1920 = 422 pixels width? Or would 22% be the area (x * y)? And 50% gray background, would that mean an RGB value of 128,128,128? Meaning 50% in gamma corrected light, right?


Parameter 1 - color patch area:

Scale the displayed patch to be specified %area of current MPC display window, so x dimension would be sqrt(%pixels in x dimension) and y dimension would be sqrt(%pixels in y dimension). For a 1920x1080 display window, 10% area would be .316228*1920 x .316228*1080 = 607 x 342

Parameter 2 - background level:

Put patch on specified %RGB gray level background instead of black.

edit: updated previous link with version that fixes remaining progress bar quirks.
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post #2091 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 06:18 AM
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Ok, your feature wish is now implemented in madVR v0.86.6. See "madVR_SetBackground".

Edit: Ooops. I've removed one API, because of that the current HCFR build doesn't like v0.86.6, anymore. A recompile with the latest cpp/h files will be necessary. Sorry for the inconvenience! That should teach me not to remove APIs, anymore... redface.gif
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post #2092 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Ok, your feature wish is now implemented in madVR v0.86.6. See "madVR_SetBackground".

Thanks! Previous link updated with version allowing user specified patch area and background level (on view images property page). The settings work for the internal generator as well.
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post #2093 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 09:22 AM
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Thanks, everything seems to work nicely now.
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post #2094 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Thanks, everything seems to work nicely now.

I get weird results with madVR / HCFR



EDIT: If I change HCFR to 0-255 it looks somewhat different ;-)
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post #2095 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, check 0-255 levels for patterns through madVR. I've uploaded version 3.0.4.3 (link in sig) to sourceforge in an installable package, it contains the most recent madVR support. Uninstall old version before installing new.
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post #2096 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 01:06 PM
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Ahh ... okay. thought I should set HCFR to the same as madVR 16-235 :-)
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post #2097 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 01:18 PM
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Hmmm ... this is weird ... I have just run the latest version of HCFR / 0-255 and get the same result

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1393853/fork-of-hcfr-started-whats-needed/2070#post_23437621

EDIT: But not if I start madVR with a 75% red
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post #2098 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 01:42 PM
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can someone explain where im going wrong



I should mention that this is a es8000 in standard mode with only 2 point available
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post #2099 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post

Hmmm ... this is weird ... I have just run the latest version of HCFR / 0-255 and get the same result

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1393853/fork-of-hcfr-started-whats-needed/2070#post_23437621

EDIT: But not if I start madVR with a 75% red

That is weird, something in madVR is shifting the red, do you have the 3dlut or any color correction active? Unless there is some measurement synchronization issue, try increasing the iris time to see if that has any effect.
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post #2100 of 4158 Old 06-17-2013, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillycargt4cs View Post

can someone explain where im going wrong

Looks good to me, what don't you like about it?
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