HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 73 - AVS Forum
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post #2161 of 5016 Old 07-15-2013, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

You can use GCD for both grayscale and color gamut.

When you select rec.709 75%, HCFR will display the 75% reference targets and xy coordinates when you hover the mouse over them. HCFR will also show you the saturation targets. If the saturation targets aren't shown, right click the CIE chart and check 'Display saturation targets'.

Ah gotcha. This will be my first time calibrating a CMS, so it's all new to me. Definitely seems a bit more cumbersome than the greyscale, I'm looking forward to it though! I guess the excel spreadsheet for the GCD really only shows what luminance values are needed (since x/y are constant at a given saturation point, and luminance is dependent on the displays actually peak brightness and set gamma).

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post #2162 of 5016 Old 07-15-2013, 04:21 PM
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For color luminance you could just look at your delta luminance errors... HCFR tells you the error % +/-. For example, if red was 3% too high, it would say delta luminance +3%. To see the delta luminance error, go to the Measures tab, click on the drop down box at the top and go to your primaries and secondaries, and delta luminance is at the bottom of the grid (under delta xy). It will probably be hidden, so to see it, you'll have to click on the little down arrow to the right of the dropdown box at the top. But ya, the spreadsheet will tell you exactly what your luminance should be.
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post #2163 of 5016 Old 07-15-2013, 05:03 PM
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Quick question... The GCD 75%/75% color patterns use the same x,y coordinates for RGBYCM correct? I ask because I can't get that spreadsheet to work for me, I just have #VALUE! for everything except 100L,100S values...

Edit: I just realized of course they will be different. I expect HCFR will be know what these values are for when I'm doing my adjustments. smile.gif

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post #2164 of 5016 Old 07-16-2013, 05:11 AM
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I can't get HCFR to show my contrast when I do the grayscale measurement. I get a bunch of questions marks. I'm trying to calibrate a JVC RS 4810.

I've used this before a couple of years ago with my Kuro and just wondering why it doesn't work all the time. The last measurement I got was 25014:1 with Iris all the way open and I closed it down and it now won't give me a number.

Too black to read?
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post #2165 of 5016 Old 07-16-2013, 02:12 PM
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The other day I asked about the "Calibrate meter" button's request for a "white patch", and what it should be. Throughout the thread 30-50% was mentioned (I had been using 50%), and 80% was suggested. I compared using the 50% and the 80% cal patches in two consecutive 10-point gray scale runs and the differences were extremely tivial as to the numbers/graphs, probably within the meter's inherent repeatability, so I highly doubt there'd be any visual diffs.

Now I need something else clarified. This is for the retail i1 Display Pro (i1D3), IOW not calibrated against a standard or at least a much better meter. There are two apparently conflicting pieces of info in this thread.

1. The i1D3 is "more accurate" with either a color correction matrix or a spectral correction .ccss file. One or the other should be used, but not both.
2. The i1 Display Pros are each individually calibrated at the factory, and the spectral characteristic corrections are programmed into their firmware. (IIRC this was a much more recent statement about the current production.)

You can probably see my confusion: if point 2. is correct, then point 1. seems no longer appropriate, at least re current production, since the meter is already spectrally corrected and you don't want to "do it twice" per the warning in 1. Am I misunderstanding what the correction methods are doing? Thanks.

I would like to make sure I'm at least using the meter correctly before I post any results or ask any more even more boring questions...
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post #2166 of 5016 Old 07-16-2013, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

1. The i1D3 is "more accurate" with either a color correction matrix or a spectral correction .ccss file. One or the other should be used, but not both.
2. The i1 Display Pros are each individually calibrated at the factory, and the spectral characteristic corrections are programmed into their firmware. (IIRC this was a much more recent statement about the current production.)

You can probably see my confusion: if point 2. is correct, then point 1. seems no longer appropriate, at least re current production, since the meter is already spectrally corrected and you don't want to "do it twice" per the warning in 1. Am I misunderstanding what the correction methods are doing?
Whether you use a matrix is up to you and what you have available. In theory a specially made matrix using a high quality reference instrument (say a CS-2000) against your particular instrument on your particular screen will be very slightly better than a .ccss under the same conditions, since a matrix is a one step measurement, while a .ccss is a two step, even though mathematically they should arrive at exactly the same result.

Putting matrix calibration aside, the point is that the factory spectral calibration of the instrument combines with the spectral measurement of the display (.ccss) to result in a specific (internally computed) calibration matrix for your meter on that type of display. That's the whole point of it - it turns an n x m .ccmx problem (n = number of different meters, m = number of different displays) into a very much smaller n + m .ccss problem, where n has already been done for you at the factory. So you get most of the advantages of a calibration tailored specifically for your meter by just distributing generic display type information (.ccss file).
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post #2167 of 5016 Old 07-16-2013, 05:40 PM
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Calibration -30-50% or 50%, or 80%?
My understanding - this is NOT a calibration per se, rather a way of ensuring the meter is set to the refresh rate of the display (when Refresh is selected). I recall there may be a diagnostic log whereby this can be checked?

My results have always been consistent/repeatable, regardless - so long as the patch luminance allows Refresh sync to work. (Our resident experts, please step in if required).

I chose to use EDR Plasma file within HCFR (from Xrite) as I believe using somebody else's meter correction file is counter productive. Meter to meter variation, plus Display variation, plus trusting the Reference Meter and its calibration - as opposed to Xrite Factory calibration with Spectral file for a typical Plasma display. I believe the latter would introduce less variation.

I have done a calibration one way, and repeated with the other method, and errors of ~3 were experienced. I am ok with this result, as the picture looks great.
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post #2168 of 5016 Old 07-16-2013, 06:49 PM
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Thanks guys. Yes, I did figure out after my original post re the "calibration patch" that it was "calibrating" the sync/refresh rate of the display, IOW the software to the hardware, and not doing something special for my particular instrument. If I had known that I wouldn't have even asked about it lol, but since I didn't know and said I'd report, maybe it'll prevent the next clue-seeker from asking...

It's a Pio plasma display BTW.

OK, I think I'm getting it now. One spectral correction is correcting for the meter (the one in the i1D3's firmware), and the other is correcting for the display type (I obviously selected the only plasma choice). I kind of gleaned that LCD displays are much more variable in this latter regard compared to plasma and CRT types. And that X-Rite gives little regard to plasma types of displays (the correction files for them) because ~0 of the targeted i1D3 market has their computer connected to a plasma display. There's just us outliers.
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post #2169 of 5016 Old 07-16-2013, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wl1 View Post

Calibration -30-50% or 50%, or 80%?
My understanding - this is NOT a calibration per se, rather a way of ensuring the meter is set to the refresh rate of the display (when Refresh is selected).
"ensuring the meter is set to the refresh rate of the display" = refresh rate calibration.
Quote:
I chose to use EDR Plasma file within HCFR (from Xrite) as I believe using somebody else's meter correction file is counter productive. Meter to meter variation, plus Display variation, plus trusting the Reference Meter and its calibration - as opposed to Xrite Factory calibration with Spectral file for a typical Plasma display. I believe the latter would introduce less variation.
There is no meter to meter variation in using EDR/.ccss since this is the point of it being in two parts - the factory per meter characterization is combined with the display EDR/.ccss measurement to create the unique meter to display correction matrix.
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post #2170 of 5016 Old 07-17-2013, 01:59 PM
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If I understand right what I have to check is spectral EDR In the list anf that's all?
I can' t see how every meter works with one correction and give the same results..
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post #2171 of 5016 Old 07-17-2013, 02:06 PM
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^
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

There is no meter to meter variation in using EDR/.ccss since this is the point of it being in two parts - the factory per meter characterization is combined with the display EDR/.ccss measurement to create the unique meter to display correction matrix.

This is for the i1D3...I thought he explained it brilliantly...

Your meter may not have an internal correction "matrix" and so you have to provide it externally.
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post #2172 of 5016 Old 07-17-2013, 05:55 PM
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Please let me rephrase my question.
I have a retail i1displaypro, latest drivers for it from x-rite(version 1.5.0), hcfr 3.0.4.2.
Is it enough to select from spectral sample -edr plasma or I have to do something else to convert latest edr plasma from x-rite drivers?
Sorry if I can't explain better, English is not my native!
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post #2173 of 5016 Old 07-17-2013, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

I can' t see how every meter works with one correction and give the same results..
Each display 3 (and Spyder 4) type meter has it's own spectral characteristics measured and programmed into it's firmware at the factory. This accounts for meter to meter variation.

By supplying the spectral characteristics of the display (ie. EDR or .ccss file), the instrument driver software can create a calibration matrix for that instrument on that display.
Quote:
Is it enough to select from spectral sample -edr plasma or I have to do something else to convert latest edr plasma from x-rite drivers?
Selecting the plasma EDR is enough.
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post #2174 of 5016 Old 07-18-2013, 01:40 AM
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Thank you!
Another question smile.gif is : this edr correction is taken from x-rite drivers or they are built in the hcfr sofyware? Because if so, how will be used if I up-dated with a newer correction file? Thanks
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post #2175 of 5016 Old 07-18-2013, 12:52 PM
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Is there an edr plasma correction file with the latest i1profiler software? There wasn't last I checked. The plasma spectral sample included in HCFR was made by zoyd IIRC.
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post #2176 of 5016 Old 07-18-2013, 02:01 PM
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Yes it is! Is dated last month.
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post #2177 of 5016 Old 07-18-2013, 02:59 PM
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You should be able to convert the edr file to ccss and import it to HCFR with i1d3ccss (instructions in the first post). I don't have much time right now, but I tried doing so but couldn't get it imported to HCFR. Maybe zoyd or John can include it for the next build so we won't have to import it manually.
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post #2178 of 5016 Old 07-18-2013, 03:15 PM
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I tried that too unsuccessfully !
I found the latest (july 2013) files *.ccss in appdata/roaming/color and not in hcfr. I asume that this is the place from where hcfr gets it's spectral samples. I might be wrong, I know nothing about programming.
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post #2179 of 5016 Old 07-18-2013, 06:18 PM
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I'd be curious to see the differences (if any) with that plasma spectral sample vs. the Panasonic correction matrix I used to calibrate my ST50.
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post #2180 of 5016 Old 07-18-2013, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

I tried that too unsuccessfully !
I found the latest (july 2013) files *.ccss in appdata/roaming/color and not in hcfr. I asume that this is the place from where hcfr gets it's spectral samples. I might be wrong, I know nothing about programming.

The Plasma EDR from the new i1 profiler can be found in the xrite folder in program files but it is basically the same one that zoyd loaded up in the drop down list in HCFR as both have a July 20 2012 date.

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post #2181 of 5016 Old 07-18-2013, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLewis View Post

The Plasma EDR from the new i1 profiler can be found in the xrite folder in program files but it is basically the same one that zoyd loaded up in the drop down list in HCFR as both have a July 20 2012 date.
I'm pretty sure the one included with HCFR is the one zoyd made himself. I don't think it's the same. But that is very curious that the dates are the same.
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post #2182 of 5016 Old 07-19-2013, 12:20 AM
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Guys, if I'm not mistaken and I will check later when home, the last one is dated 19 june 2013 in x-rite.
Generic plasma is not the same with plasma edr. I can't find no edr or ccss files in hcfr folder.
LE: I.was wrong. It's the same edr plasma dated 20jul2012.
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post #2183 of 5016 Old 07-19-2013, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

I'm pretty sure the one included with HCFR is the one zoyd made himself. I don't think it's the same. But that is very curious that the dates are the same.

The EDR that zoyd put in hcfr is from xrite...GWill from argyll originally found it in a dell product produce from xrite and then zoyd implemented it to hcfr.

If you look back a few pages you can read when gwill found it.

Zoyd does have a spectral sample that he made from his samsung but i dont think its the one in hcfr as its labled different.

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post #2184 of 5016 Old 07-19-2013, 09:18 AM
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My bad, I think you're right. I converted the edr files from the latest i1profiler software to a different location and the plasma ccss is the same file size and has the same file name as the one that's in the appdata\color folder.

edit: Hmm I'm not so sure anymore. I have HCFR installed on my desktop and my laptop. I converted the edr files from the latest i1profiler software on my desktop and I compared the plasma ccss from my desktop to the one on my laptop and they are slightly different in file size (21.6KB vs 21.7KB). Maybe x-rite has a different one in the latest i1profiler software? I will see if there's any different later tonight.
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post #2185 of 5016 Old 07-19-2013, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

My bad, I think you're right. I converted the edr files from the latest i1profiler software to a different location and the plasma ccss is the same file size and has the same file name as the one that's in the appdata\color folder.
Note that .ccss files are text files - you can can compare the contents visually or with a text diff program.
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post #2186 of 5016 Old 07-19-2013, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

edit: Hmm I'm not so sure anymore. I have HCFR installed on my desktop and my laptop. I converted the edr files from the latest i1profiler software on my desktop and I compared the plasma ccss from my desktop to the one on my laptop and they are slightly different in file size (21.6KB vs 21.7KB). Maybe x-rite has a different one in the latest i1profiler software? I will see if there's any different later tonight.

Rahzel I just opened up the plasma edr file and read the text and this spectral was made with a Panasonic Tv as its mentioned in the text,while the other one just says plasma technology.

Since I have a Panasonic as well as many others here this spectral would benefit us.

Does anyone know how I can convert the EDR file to .CCSS?

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post #2187 of 5016 Old 07-19-2013, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

Note that .ccss files are text files - you can can compare the contents visually or with a text diff program.
Thanks Graeme. I checked the two ccss files with notepad and they are indeed different. I'm going to re-install HCFR 3.0.4.3 (had 3.0.4.2 installed) and double check everything to confirm, then I'm going to see if they measure differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLewis View Post

Rahzel I just opened up the plasma edr file and read the text and this spectral was made with a Panasonic Tv as its mentioned in the text,while the other one just says plasma technology.

Since I have a Panasonic as well as many others here this spectral would benefit us.

Does anyone know how I can convert the EDR file to .CCSS?
The one that comes with HCFR says Panasonic? What text reading program are you using? I opened both ccss files in notepad and I went to Edit -> Find and couldn't find "Panasonic" in the text.

To convert edr's to ccss, install the i1profiler software and run the i1d3ccss tool in a command line. As I said above, I think the two spectral samples are different in HCFR and the latest i1profiler software, judging by the file size and text. I've just installed HCFR 3.0.4.3 and I'm downloading i1profiler again.

I initially thought they were the same because when I ran i1d3ccss, it probably replaced the ccss files in the appdata\color folder with the new ones, so when I compared the two, they were the same. When I compared the ccss files to the ones on my other machine, they were different. So I'm fairly confident that the new i1profiler software has different edrs/ccss files than the current HCFR.

Once I get both spectral samples, I will upload them for others to try. Just rename one of them and place it in the appdata\color folder.
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post #2188 of 5016 Old 07-19-2013, 10:19 PM
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plasma ccss.zip 14k .zip file

here's the default HCFR plasma ccss file, along with the converted edr file from the latest i1profiler software.
Attached Files
File Type: zip plasma ccss.zip (14.4 KB, 36 views)
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post #2189 of 5016 Old 07-19-2013, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

plasma ccss.zip 14k .zip file

here's the default HCFR plasma ccss file, along with the converted edr file from the latest i1profiler software.

Thanks rahzel....so the new one is smaller 21.6kb?

I had opened the original edr file found in the xrite folder thats where it mentions Panasonic_TV in the text.

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post #2190 of 5016 Old 07-19-2013, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLewis View Post

Thanks rahzel....so the new one is smaller 21.6kb?

I had opened the original edr file found in the xrite folder thats where it mentions Panasonic_TV in the text.
Yes, the slightly smaller one is from the latest i1profiler software.

So the new one actually says Panasonic in the original edr file? I've only checked the ccss files.

BTW, I just did some measurements with both and they are essentially the same... within 0.15 dE, which was probably partly caused by the meter.
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