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post #2251 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

damag0r,

Are you aware that increasing the gamma gain decreases measured gamma?

Larry

No, I assumed it increased because Y (luminance) goes up when I increase the gain. Still not sure which Y values I should be aiming for.
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post #2252 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by damag0r View Post

No, I assumed it increased because Y (luminance) goes up when I increase the gain. Still not sure which Y values I should be aiming for.

That is the cause of your difficulty.

Set the desired gamma in the preference menu. Then once a grayscale is performed, the gammaY row will tell you what the correct Y row value should be.

There should be no difference between the spreadsheet and HCFR for the same initial conditions. They both use the same equations.

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post #2253 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

That is the cause of your difficulty.

Set the desired gamma in the preference menu. Then once a grayscale is performed, the gammaY row will tell you what the correct Y row value should be.

There should be no difference between the spreadsheet and HCFR for the same initial conditions. They both use the same equations.

Larry

Even knowing this it still doesn't male sense. I have bt.1886 as my target gamma in the preferences. After taking a grayscale reading I target the GammaY value as Y exactly... and on the high end it never comes out right after taking another grey scale pass.

I'll post some screenshots in a bit to show you what I mean...
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post #2254 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damag0r View Post

Even knowing this it still doesn't male sense. I have bt.1886 as my target gamma in the preferences. After taking a grayscale reading I target the GammaY value as Y exactly... and on the high end it never comes out right after taking another grey scale pass.

I'll post some screenshots in a bit to show you what I mean...

Well, you are doing something fundamentally wrong. The only way we are going to be able to help you is if you walk us, in detail, through the procedure that you are following.

Larry
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post #2255 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 07:42 PM
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First I take a gray scale samping and I get these...

Here's the before both measures and gamma graph:






Now I'll take continuous readings and target the 90 IRE GammaY with a 90% white pattern up.



The Y value is already as close as I'm going to get it to the GammaY value... if it were really so close to the target it wouldn't show so much lower on the gamma graph than the target. So it doesn't matter whether I'm lowering or raising the gain it still isn't going to match up.

What am I doing wrong?

Edit: to make it more clear, I can try to target the GammaY value even when the Y value is quite a bit off and it won't necessarily get the gamma where I was aiming for at that IRE after I take another gray scale sampling.
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post #2256 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damag0r View Post


[snip]

What am I doing wrong?


You have to do that for each of the % gray stimulus values -- display the proper window and match the Y value to the gammaY value.

Larry
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post #2257 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

You have to do that for each of the % gray stimulus values -- display the proper window and match the Y value to the gammaY value.

Larry

That's what I'm doing... I'm talking about at any specific IRE level... or if I do the whole thing. I'm very sure the GammaY value is not being properly reported for the target gamma at any particular IRE. At least in this latest version and with bt.1886. Try it yourself...
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post #2258 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 08:18 PM
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I just compared the results from zoyd's BT1886CalcV3 spreadsheet and those from HCFR. The difference is about 1%. That's probably due to rounding errors and certainly not enough to make any noticeable difference in the gamma curve. Someone that's more awake than I am at this hour will have to take over for me. smile.gif

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post #2259 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

I just compared the results from zoyd's BT1886CalcV3 spreadsheet and those from HCFR. The difference is about 1%. That's probably due to rounding errors and certainly not enough to make any noticeable difference in the gamma curve. Someone that's more awake than I am at this hour will have to take over for me. smile.gif

Larry

I can try to target the numbers after entering my black and white levels in the spreadsheet and it still doesn't get the gamma where I want it to be. I must either just be doing something totally wrong, but I can't figure out what it is.

I just take a gray scale reading. Then I target the GammaY for each IRE % level for Y but it never comes out right after taking another sample of my gray scale.



Edit: Actually... this is what things come out like if I target the Gamma Y for Y.



On the low end I can get close to my targets, past 50% and it just keeps getting more and more off..
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post #2260 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damag0r View Post

I can try to target the numbers after entering my black and white levels in the spreadsheet and it still doesn't get the gamma where I want it to be. I must either just be doing something totally wrong, but I can't figure out what it is.

I just take a gray scale reading. Then I target the GammaY for each IRE % level for Y but it never comes out right after taking another sample of my gray scale.

Are you sure there isn't some setting I need to check/uncheck somewhere?


That's why you'll have to give us the complete procedure that you are following. smile.gif

The 1% number that I mentioned in my previous post is incorrect. It is more like 0.01% 0.1%. Told you I was not fully awake. biggrin.gif


Talk to you tomorrow,
Larry

corrected typo after correcting calculation redface.gif
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post #2261 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 09:36 PM
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Ok doing this one more time from the beginning.

File -> New -> Sensor Selection (no matrix) -> Finish

Meter Property Page: id3 Refresh Display, Contact, Plasma Spectral Sample, then click calibrate meter with 30% white pattern up and then I finally hit "OK".

Now I do a measure gray scale.

When it finishes, I start taking continuous readings and load back up the gray scale/gamma patterns and I try to make it so the 'Y' value matches the Gamma Y value for each IRE % respectively (switching to the proper pattern for each IRE % of course).

Then I stop continuous readings, and start over from the beginning and re-do the first three steps and finish with doing a measure of my gray scale.

And this time I got a lot closer... but I started from the low end and went up to the high end instead of the other way around. I also opened a new measuring window instead of just re-sampling the gray scale from the same one.

Before:



After:



The 90% still is off... but I did much much better this time.

I think I understand more what is going on now. I think I must have been doing something else wrong before that I missed somehow too, but one of the main things is the controls on the higher end are MUCH MUCH more coarse than on the lower end. I think this may have been what was confusing me so much... one tick moves the 90% a LOT and it's much harder to get it near target as a result.

Sorry for the trouble and thanks for the help. I think I've just been playing with this for far too long and I need to take a break. I feel kinda stupid now. rolleyes.gif
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post #2262 of 4443 Old 09-04-2013, 11:08 PM
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As far as I know rising contrast too much will drop gamma at the high end. Maybe you should lower the contrast and readjust gamma. If that helped readjust wb too. smile.gif
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post #2263 of 4443 Old 09-05-2013, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Don't worry about gamma at 90%

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post #2264 of 4443 Old 09-05-2013, 10:53 AM
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Zoyd.. a few questions.. gamma bt1886 or linear 2.3-2.4 on plasma's? Equal energy windows from S&M the same or better than 10% apl windows from GCD for calibrating my st60? Thank you!
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post #2265 of 4443 Old 09-05-2013, 02:57 PM
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damag0r,

Your latest gamma curve looks great. I should have asked what direction you were taking the measurements. As zoyd said, ignore the apparent error at 90%.

When you get the chance, upload the full HCFR chc file of your final calibration so we can look at the details. You'll have to zip the chc file before uploading. The editor that AVS uses requires it.

Larry
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post #2266 of 4443 Old 09-08-2013, 08:09 PM
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Is there a document that shows the procedures of how to get an i1pro to connect? i keep getting a severe error when i try to connect. thanks
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post #2267 of 4443 Old 09-12-2013, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

damag0r,

Your latest gamma curve looks great. I should have asked what direction you were taking the measurements. As zoyd said, ignore the apparent error at 90%.

When you get the chance, upload the full HCFR chc file of your final calibration so we can look at the details. You'll have to zip the chc file before uploading. The editor that AVS uses requires it.

Larry

Yo, sorry for the late reply. But I had put my meter away until I had put over 300 hours on the panel because supposedly that is when ST60's stop drifting as much.

I went ahead and re-tweaked my Custom, and then calibrated Cinema mode as well.

Aimed for bt.1886 on Custom and 2.22 or so on Cinema (I tried to give it a tiny bit of a bt.1886-like curve but none of it is very far above 2.22).

Cinema was MUCH easier to calibrate than Custom, especially when going for 2.22 instead of bt.1886. It took me like a fifth of the same time it took me to calibrate Custom. After fixing the gamma and getting the colors as close as possible my greyscale isn't quite as perfectly flat... but all dE's in both modes are are 2 or below. I'm especially proud of my low dE's on my primaries+secondaries in both modes, particularly in Cinema mode where average dE is 0.80.

Cinema:







Custom:






ST-60-Cinema-after300h-9-12-13.zip 33k .zip file
ST-60-Custom-after300h-9-12-13.zip 1k .zip file

I wonder why the Custom .chc is so much smaller...

Which one do you think I should watch? smile.gif

I can certainly tell a difference in the "punch" behind the colors between the two different modes because of the different gammas. In Custom with bt.1886 they stand out more. I guess I'll just pick whichever one looks better to me personally for the source. Although Custom w/ bt.1886 looks a little too "dark" compared to Cinema w/ 2.22 for live action stuff, so I like my it better for that, while Custom I think arguably looks better for animated stuff.
Attached Files
File Type: zip ST-60-Custom-after300h-9-12-13.zip (1.2 KB, 11 views)
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post #2268 of 4443 Old 09-12-2013, 01:03 AM
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I suggest you check gamma with settings which shows curve for each color to make sure everything is ok.
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post #2269 of 4443 Old 09-12-2013, 01:12 AM
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I suggest you check gamma with settings which shows curve for each color to make sure everything is ok.

How do I do that?
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post #2270 of 4443 Old 09-12-2013, 01:23 AM
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Nevermind. I just figured it out.

Cinema mode at 2.22:


Custom mode with bt.1886:



Cinema looks good up until 90%, and Custom looks good up until 80%. (I zoomed in a bit so the differences look more pronounced than they did before). I may try to clean up the 80% on Custom later if you think it is worth it. I find that at 90% it is a lost cause though.

Edit: Should I be calibrating my colors at 100% IRE and Saturation... or should I try it at 75%? If so, how do I compensate for the changed x,y,Y values as a result? 100%/100% is just way easier because I don't have to do any extra math or thought to calibrate... But... I can't help but feel like I'd be getting better overall results if I was calibrating them at like 50 or 75% IRE or something.
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post #2271 of 4443 Old 09-14-2013, 12:44 AM
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You can look in the cie diagram in continuous read mode and see how the measure moves until you've reached the target or you can put your cursor on the target and the corect x, y values will pop. smile.gif
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post #2272 of 4443 Old 09-14-2013, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

You can look in the cie diagram in continuous read mode and see how the measure moves until you've reached the target or you can put your cursor on the target and the corect x, y values will pop. smile.gif

Ah thanks. I didn't think of that! I'll remember it next time I touch up my calibration.

Another question I have though is... what is the point of the 100 IRE gamma control in the ST60's menu? HCFR doesn't seem to give any reading for 100% IRE gamma and I assumed there was a good reason, but since there's a 100 IRE gamma control on the TV it's making me wonder what it is for and if it has anything to do with why I can't get my gamma totally flat on the high end.
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post #2273 of 4443 Old 09-16-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damag0r View Post

I'm especially proud of my low dE's on my primaries+secondaries in both modes, particularly in Cinema mode where average dE is 0.80.

That's a great start but you are not finished.smile.gif Once the edge gamut (100% saturation) is calibrated you should check points inside the gamut to verify display linearity. In HCFR you can do that along each color axis (saturation measures) and at select points using the color checker sequence. There are some displays that will measure perfectly at 100% saturation but have errors for other more important colors (flesh tones, grass, sky, etc.) that you might want touch up.

Quote:
another question I have though is... what is the point of the 100 IRE gamma control in the ST60's menu?

There is no point in a 100% gamma control but if it has separate RGB components you can use it to tweak the color temperature at 100%.

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post #2274 of 4443 Old 09-16-2013, 03:45 PM
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After reading comments about how well behaved the VT60 is when calibrating and reading a short discussion about calibrating-for-pretty-graphs, just for fun I spent some time this weekend getting the best grayscale and gamma curves that I could. biggrin.gif



The slight dip in the gamma curve is there by purpose. It helps increase definition in the very dark areas.

Max output is 29 ftL and min level is 0.00145 ftL.

Oh yes, Don't try this without ControlCAL. The Panasonic on screen display interacts with the readings and the OSD's short timeout will drive you crazy.


Larry

corrected typo
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post #2275 of 4443 Old 09-17-2013, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Oh yes, Don't try this without ControlCAL. The Panasonic on screen display interacts with the readings and the OSD's short timeout will drive you crazy.



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No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

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post #2276 of 4443 Old 09-17-2013, 10:18 AM
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Since the V.0.3.4.3 the French version do not allow any more the modification of the generator config.
Instead we get the message <<une opération non prise en charge a été tentée (A not taken care operation was tried)>>

P.S. Same in Deutch (I Don't try Spanish)
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post #2277 of 4443 Old 09-17-2013, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

After reading comments about how well behaved the VT60 is when calibrating and reading a short discussion about calibrating-for-pretty-graphs, just for fun I spent some time this weekend getting the best grayscale and gamma curves that I could. biggrin.gif



The slight dip in the gamma curve is there by purpose. It helps increase definition in the very dark areas.

Max output is 29 ftL and min level is 0.00145 ftL.

Oh yes, Don't try this without ControlCAL. The Panasonic on screen display interacts with the readings and the OSD's short timeout will drive you crazy.


Larry

corrected typo

Great results! What patterns did you used?
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post #2278 of 4443 Old 09-17-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Great results! What patterns did you used?


The pattern wasn't a factor in getting the results. I spent an extra 30 minutes after a calibration to push the results as far as I could just for fun. But for the record, I used the 10% window pattern on the 22% APL screen in Ryan Masciola's disk. The meter was an i1 Display 3 colorimeter profiled to an i1 Pro spectrometer.

Larry
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post #2279 of 4443 Old 09-17-2013, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerlucun View Post

Since the V.0.3.4.3 the French version do not allow any more the modification of the generator config.
Instead we get the message <<une opération non prise en charge a été tentée (A not taken care operation was tried)>>

P.S. Same in Deutch (I Don't try Spanish)

sorry, haven't had time to update the non-english menu links, please use english version until further notice.

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post #2280 of 4443 Old 09-17-2013, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

After reading comments about how well behaved the VT60 is when calibrating and reading a short discussion about calibrating-for-pretty-graphs, just for fun I spent some time this weekend getting the best grayscale and gamma curves that I could. biggrin.gif



The slight dip in the gamma curve is there by purpose. It helps increase definition in the very dark areas.

Max output is 29 ftL and min level is 0.00145 ftL.

Oh yes, Don't try this without ControlCAL. The Panasonic on screen display interacts with the readings and the OSD's short timeout will drive you crazy.


Larry

corrected typo

There is no way I'd be able to get my gray scale quite this perfect with the controls on the ST60. It would literally be impossible, especially if I was also trying to also get the gamma a certain way. That being said, zoom in a bit more and I bet it won't look quite as perfect, especially on the gamma. wink.gif

Also... my ftL is much higher... 37 or so on Custom, and around 38 on Cinema mode. Should I be calibrating at a lower max ftL?

Honestly, I'd just buy a ZT60 if I could be 100% guaranteed I'd have near perfect uniformity (which I can tell I don't have on my ST60) and that Panasonic could guarantee they'd give me a replacement within 48 hours if I was at all dissatisfied at any time. I can tell when displaying a purely white or gray screen the uniformity isn't perfect, and I've heard of other uniformity issues with the ZT60.... I just can't bring myself to spend quite as much as the VT60/ZT60 cost unless I can be very sure the uniformity issues weren't throwing things off more than my calibration being slightly off would.

Also, I can tell some fairly major differences between my ST60 in Cinema mode calibrated with a gamma of approx 2.22 vs. Custom mode with bt.1886. Like even in an animated show I can tell a difference in how the wallpaper looked (color wise) between the two modes, even though supposedly they should be calibrated so well the difference shouldn't be noticeable by the human eye. wink.gif -- Maybe someone can explain to me why this is the case. Then again, I don't fully understand gamma. My guess is though that Custom mode is the superior mode on an ST60. I can see details popping in Custom mode that I can't see nearly as clearly in Cinema mode. It could also be the difference between the different gamma preset modes, or the panel brightness though. In "Custom" mode I have the gamma preset at 2.6 and panel brightness at "mid", while in Cinema mode I have the gamma preset at 2.2 and the panel brightness at "low". That being said, I can't help but feel like the bt1886 gamma is a little bit too "dim" for a lot of live action stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

That's a great start but you are not finished.smile.gif Once the edge gamut (100% saturation) is calibrated you should check points inside the gamut to verify display linearity. In HCFR you can do that along each color axis (saturation measures) and at select points using the color checker sequence. There are some displays that will measure perfectly at 100% saturation but have errors for other more important colors (flesh tones, grass, sky, etc.) that you might want touch up.

Maybe this is why I can tell the differences between the two modes with only my eyes so very easily. If I had to guess Custom mode with "panel brightness" set to "mid" is a lot better than "Cinema" on "low" though.
damag0r is offline  
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