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post #2521 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 12:47 PM
 
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Even more bad news.... when I calibrate using D3 correction file, the black level test comes out REAL ugly. The shades of grey it displays are far from grey... some are more red, others are more blue, etc.... Far worse than not using a correction file....
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post #2522 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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New version available -> 3.1.0.0

Changelog

I decided to implement a user selectable integration time for the Display Pro and Colormunki Display. The selections available are:

1. Argyll default [0.2 sec]
2. Best [0.5 sec]
3. 0.3 sec
4. 0.4 sec
5. 0.6 sec
6. 0.8 sec
7. 1.0 sec

Option 1 will mimic ArgyllCMS exactly, this means that in non-refresh mode the base integration time is 0.2 sec and in refresh mode it's 0.4 seconds rounded up to the nearest refresh period. Note that the meter is adaptive so the actual integration time is the base + an intensity level adjustment so it will run slower at low luminance patches than high.

Option 2 is my recommendation for the best trade between low luminance level repeatability and speed.

Options 2-7 are the same in refresh or non-refresh mode except that refresh mode times will be rounded up to the nearest refresh period.

If you use a colormunki display there is no point in using refresh mode because it won't sync. Just pick your favorite integration time and your edr display type and go.

If you use a display pro and want to use refresh mode in conjunction with with an edr file choose refresh mode and sync your probe using the calibrate button first, then choose your edr display type.

You can change your integration time at any point during a session and the program will remember if you have a calibrated refresh rate and use it. You do not have to re-sync.

Enjoy, and let me know if you have any problems (with as much technical information as possible so I can reproduce it).
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post #2523 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 02:51 PM
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Thanks zoyd.

Question: what is this Observer Type dropdown box for?
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post #2524 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 02:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

New version available -> 3.1.0.0

Changelog

I decided to implement a user selectable integration time for the Display Pro and Colormunki Display. The selections available are:

1. Argyll default [0.2 sec]
2. Best [0.5 sec]
3. 0.3 sec
4. 0.4 sec
5. 0.6 sec
6. 0.8 sec
7. 1.0 sec

Option 1 will mimic ArgyllCMS exactly, this means that in non-refresh mode the base integration time is 0.2 sec and in refresh mode it's 0.4 seconds rounded up to the nearest refresh period. Note that the meter is adaptive so the actual integration time is the base + an intensity level adjustment so it will run slower at low luminance patches than high.

Option 2 is my recommendation for the best trade between low luminance level repeatability and speed.

Options 2-7 are the same in refresh or non-refresh mode except that refresh mode times will be rounded up to the nearest refresh period.

If you use a colormunki display there is no point in using refresh mode because it won't sync. Just pick your favorite integration time and your edr display type and go.

If you use a display pro and want to use refresh mode in conjunction with with an edr file choose refresh mode and sync your probe using the calibrate button first, then choose your edr display type.

You can change your integration time at any point during a session and the program will remember if you have a calibrated refresh rate and use it. You do not have to re-sync.

Enjoy, and let me know if you have any problems (with as much technical information as possible so I can reproduce it).

Thank you! I do hope that correction file included for i1 Display Pro provides more accurate readings than using NO correction files.
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post #2525 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Thank you! I do hope that correction file included for i1 Display Pro provides more accurate readings than using NO correction files.

You can't trust profile corrections derived from other meters/displays. It is recommended that you use a display type from the dropdown selection that best fits the description of your display, this applies a correction based on your own meter's sensitivity coefficients and the spectral distribution of the display type.

@rahzel These are different models for deriving the color matching functions from metameric experiments, some people might find them interesting to experiment with. Choosing one of these will adjust your probe to use that set of color matching functions for all measurements. (Read a book on colorimetry for more info. wink.gif )
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post #2526 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 03:21 PM
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Ok, probably won't be changing that then. smile.gif

Is it normal that my errors are much lower using CIE2000 compared to what the older versions used (CIE94?). I loaded up my old ST50 calibration, which I believe was dE 1.52 for grayscale on the old version, and it's 0.72 set to absolute Y w/o gamma on the new version (2-pt system so gamma is not perfect, but actually pretty close to BT.1886 using 10% standard windows).
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post #2527 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Ok, probably won't be changing that then. smile.gif

Is it normal that my errors are much lower using CIE2000 compared to what the older versions used (CIE94?). I loaded up my old ST50 calibration, which I believe was dE 1.52 for grayscale on the old version, and it's 0.72 set to absolute Y w/o gamma on the new version (2-pt system so gamma is not perfect, but actually pretty close to BT.1886 using 10% standard windows).

Absolutely, the old version grayscale was alway CIELUV and only colors could be measured in CIE94. CIELUV will report roughly twice what either CIE94 or CIE2000 will. In other words a "just noticeable difference" JND is about 2.5 in CIE1976 (either u'v' or ab) and 1.0 in CIE94, CIE2000, and CMC.
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post #2528 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 03:42 PM
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Gray Scale dE handling seems stuck on 'Absolute Y w/o gamma' with the new ver 3.1.0.0.

Larry
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post #2529 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 03:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

You can't trust profile corrections derived from other meters/displays. It is recommended that you use a display type from the dropdown selection that best fits the description of your display, this applies a correction based on your own meter's sensitivity coefficients and the spectral distribution of the display type.

@rahzel These are different models for deriving the color matching functions from metameric experiments, some people might find them interesting to experiment with. Choosing one of these will adjust your probe to use that set of color matching functions for all measurements. (Read a book on colorimetry for more info. wink.gif )

What is the point of including correction files then? I assumed that those files corrected the inaccuracies of the colorimeters selected. For example, I have i1 Display Pro, a 40' Samsung LN40B550 2009 LCD HDTV (not LED). So, I selected D3_GENERIC_CCFL_LCD correction file and re-calibrated my HDTV to D65. But now you are saying that each i1 Display Pro colorimeter unit requires a separate correction file because each unit has its own sensitivity coefficients? Again, it makes no sense to include a correction file if each individual i1 Display Pro unit needs a different one... How would I find my own meter's sensitivity coefficients?
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post #2530 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Absolutely, the old version grayscale was alway CIELUV and only colors could be measured in CIE94. CIELUV will report roughly twice what either CIE94 or CIE2000 will. In other words a "just noticeable difference" JND is about 2.5 in CIE1976 (either u'v' or ab) and 1.0 in CIE94, CIE2000, and CMC.
Didn't more recent versions of HCFR have an option to not include luminance in error reporting for grayscale? I thought I had mine setup that way. By 'old versions of HCFR', I simply mean <3.1.0.0 (not including the betas). I'm just kind of surprised my errors are so low on my ST50 with just a 2pt system. I know that CalMAN also defaults to dE2000 with or without luminance. If you don't mind and have time, can you compare these two like you have before? The differences in the errors reported by the two softwares that is.
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What is the point of including correction files then? I assumed that those files corrected the inaccuracies of the colorimeters selected. For example, I have i1 Display Pro. So, I selected D3_GENERIC_CCFL_LCD correction file and re-calibrated my HDTV to D65. But now you are saying that each i1 Display Pro colorimeter unit requires a separate correction file because each unit has its own sensitivity coefficients? Again, it makes no sense to include a correction file if each individual i1 Display Pro unit needs a different one... How would I find my own meter's sensitivity coefficients?
I think what Zoyd is saying is that you can't fully trust correction matrices (profiles from other D3s). D3s have low unit to unit variations, but it's less trustworthy than using a ccss/edr (which create a unique correction specifically for your meter). Still, using a correction matrix has a good chance of being better than using no correction at all, and possibly even better than using a ccss/edr... ccss/edrs are just a safer choice.
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post #2531 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 03:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Didn't more recent versions of HCFR have an option to not include luminance in error reporting for grayscale? I thought I had mine setup that way. By 'old versions of HCFR', I simply mean <3.1.0.0, not including the betas). I'm just kind of surprised my errors are so low on my ST50 with just a 2pt system. I know that CalMAN also defaults to dE2000 with or without luminance. If you don't mind and have time, can you compare these two like you have before? The differences in the errors reported by the two softwares that is.
I think what Zoyd is saying is that you can't trust correction matrices (profiles from other D3s). D3s have low unit to unit variations, but it's less trustworthy than using a ccss/edr (which create a unique correction specifically for your meter).

I know that each TV requires a separate calibration, but I did not know that each colorimeter requires one too! So, how do I calibrate my colorimeter so that it reads everything properly? How do I get the trustworthy CCSS/EDR specifically for MY i1 Display Pro?
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post #2532 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Gray Scale dE handling seems stuck on 'Absolute Y w/o gamma' with the new ver 3.1.0.0.

Larry

By design if you have recommended selected. smile.gif
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post #2533 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

I know that each TV requires a separate calibration, but I did not know that each colorimeter requires one too! So, how do I calibrate my colorimeter so that it reads everything properly? How do I get the trustworthy CCSS/EDR specifically for MY i1 Display Pro?
AFAIK that's what ccss/edrs are... they create a unique correction specifically for your meter, so as long as your meter is functioning to X-Rite's specs from the factory, it should produce a pretty good correction for the display EDR you have chosen. Correction matrices/profiles (ie the one you selected for your calibration) on the other hand, are created from someone else' D3 and display using a reference meter, so it may or may not work well on your D3 due to unit to unit variances.

edit: I think you're confused by the fact that there are two correction types that HCFR uses, matrices/profiles and ccss/edrs. The one you selected (D3_GENERIC_CCFL_LCD) is a correction matrix. You should select a correction from the "spectral type" (<3.1.0.0) or "display type" (3.1.0.0) drop down box at the next screen, not from the "use existing meter correction file" drop down box. Use one correction type or the other, not both at the same time. Make sure the "use existing meter correction file" box is empty if you use a ccss/edr (or vice versa).
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post #2534 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

By design if you have recommended selected. smile.gif

Clever. tongue.gif Okay. smile.gif

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post #2535 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 04:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

AFAIK that's what ccss/edrs are... they create a unique correction specifically for your meter, so as long as your meter is functioning to X-Rite's specs from the factory, it should produce a pretty good correction for the display EDR you have chosen. Correction matrices on the other hand, are created from someone else' D3 and display using a reference meter, so it may or may not work well on your D3 due to unit to unit variances.

How do I know if I did or did not use correction matrices?

I originally used HCFR 3.0.4.0 WITHOUT a correction file to calibrate my non-LED LCD HDTV. This time, I used version 3.1.0.0 and selected D3_GENERIC_CCFL_LCD correction file. My results with correction file were different from the results without correction file. My reds without correction file were at 100% at each grey scale %, but with correction file they were at 110% at each grey scale %. So, I re-calibrated my HDTV so that my reds are @ 100% for each grey scale %, utilizing correction file.

The result is that I no longer have that pinkish/reddish effect on my screen! However, I had to use my own eyes when calibration 0-10% because this version of HCFR does not provide a reading for it and even if it did, my colorimeter would not provide an accurate result.
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post #2536 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

How do I know if I did or did not use correction matrices?

I originally used HCFR 3.0.4.0 WITHOUT a correction file to calibrate my non-LED LCD HDTV. This time, I used version 3.1.0.0 and selected D3_GENERIC_CCFL_LCD correction file. My results with correction file were different from the results without correction file. My reds without correction file were at 100% at each grey scale %, but with correction file they were at 110% at each grey scale %. So, I re-calibrated my HDTV so that my reds are @ 100% for each grey scale %, utilizing correction file.

The result is that I no longer have that pinkish/reddish effect on my screen! However, I had to use my own eyes when calibration 0-10% because this version of HCFR does not provide a reading for it and even if it did, my colorimeter would not provide an accurate result.
What you selected was a matrix/profile, not a ccss/edr. I edited the post you quoted... read the edit part for clarification.
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post #2537 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 04:54 PM
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Thanks Zoyd,I look forward to trying the new build ,I just hope my munki is not out of wack with all the different intergration times from the betas.

So Refresh mode = 1 second on all older HCFR builds, correct?

So if I choose the the 1 second selection in 3.1.0.0... I should expect the same type of reading as I did before using the refresh mode in prior builds?
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post #2538 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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So Refresh mode = 1 second on all older HCFR builds, correct?

So if I choose the the 1 second selection in 3.1.0.0... I should expect the same type of reading as I did before using the refresh mode in prior builds?

yes, refresh mode for probes that didn't sync would result in 1 second integration times. Changing the integration time does nothing physically to the probe so don't worry about that.
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post #2539 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 05:08 PM
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How is the new build only 9.8MB while the others were 18MB?
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post #2540 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 05:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

AFAIK that's what ccss/edrs are... they create a unique correction specifically for your meter, so as long as your meter is functioning to X-Rite's specs from the factory, it should produce a pretty good correction for the display EDR you have chosen. Correction matrices/profiles (ie the one you selected for your calibration) on the other hand, are created from someone else' D3 and display using a reference meter, so it may or may not work well on your D3 due to unit to unit variances.

edit: I think you're confused by the fact that there are two correction types that HCFR uses, matrices/profiles and ccss/edrs. The one you selected (D3_GENERIC_CCFL_LCD) is a correction matrix. You should select a correction from the "spectral type" (<3.1.0.0) or "display type" (3.1.0.0) drop down box at the next screen, not from the "use existing meter correction file" drop down box. Use one correction type or the other, not both at the same time. Make sure the "use existing meter correction file" box is empty if you use a ccss/edr (or vice versa).


No such screen exists! It takes me to a screen where it says Argyll Meter Property Page where I can select Reading Type, Observer Type...

In Advanced Settings, there are Meter Calibration File options, such as "Edit XYZ Matrix" which opens the same window as Argyll Meter Property Page. Spectral Sample option requires a spectrometer. I can only select "Build Manually using a Reference Colorimeter". Is that it? It says I need to take notes and compare to some reference numbers? I am not sure I have it. But I did do it, it went through several colors, and I saved the profile separately. Am I supposed to compare it to something else?

But what kind of correction did it do? It provided me the same exact readings as readings without ANY correction files....
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post #2541 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 05:32 PM
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DVD manual isn't working? test patterns coming up on the computer monitor rather than pop up dialog prompts? ah nevermind. I see whats different.
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post #2542 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

No such screen exists! It takes me to a screen where it says Argyll Meter Property Page where I can select Reading Type, Observer Type...

In Advanced Settings, there are Meter Calibration File options, such as "Edit XYZ Matrix" which opens the same window as Argyll Meter Property Page. Spectral Sample option requires a spectrometer. I can only select "Build Manually using a Reference Colorimeter". Is that it? It says I need to take notes and compare to some reference numbers? I am not sure I have it. But I did do it, it went through several colors, and I saved the profile separately. Am I supposed to compare it to something else?

But what kind of correction did it do? It provided me the same exact readings as readings without ANY correction files....
There's no "Display Type" box in the Argyll Property Page?
adyjKMg1.jpg

If it's grayed out, I discovered that you must flip the built-in light diffuser away from the optics to make the Display Type box available.
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post #2543 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 06:14 PM
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Zoyd,when i start a new calibration file it lets me choose the spectral and everthing else fine but when I go back and click on the sensor tab to bring up the argyll property page to verify things the spectrals are no longer listed,its just grayed out in the display section.

So I wonder if the spectrals are even taking...

Also if I start a new file the spectrals are not available in the display type drop down list.

I have to close HCFR completely in order to start a new file to add the spectrals.

EDIT: Nevermind ,Rahzel is correct that you have to have the diffuser away from the optics for the spectrals to load and stay loaded.

Thanks for telling us Zoyd.rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif
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post #2544 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 07:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

There's no "Display Type" box in the Argyll Property Page?
adyjKMg1.jpg

If it's grayed out, I discovered that you must flip the built-in light diffuser away from the optics to make the Display Type box available.

Yeah, but LCD type readings are not any different than non-refresh type... So correction file or not, LCD chosen or not, has exactly the same readings... Not sure what the point of this whole thing is, but I just wasted hours of my life in confusion over nothing eek.gif.

Why does it say EIZO HP? Just as examples?
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post #2545 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 08:31 PM
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Tom Huffman did some tests on a few LCDs comparing his reference Jeti spectro to his D3 without any corrections and the D3 did quite well, so that's probably the reason why there wasn't much difference. Plasma, on the other hand, requires a bit more correcting.
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post #2546 of 4001 Old 11-08-2013, 10:17 PM
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This is an interesting release with my calibration. Or appears to be the best one yet. Though for some odd reason I can't get rid of a slight red tint on 1 & 2% near black. 3 and 4% is lovely. It also appears to have fixed a slight dark green mist over some blacks with SD content for Sky. Yet it didn't seem to happen on Sky HD.

Gamma 2.2 - average 2.25 doesn't seem as bad compared to the past with ITU-R BT.1886.
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post #2547 of 4001 Old 11-09-2013, 03:07 AM
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Hi!

 

I just installed HCFR 3.1.0.0 using argyll drivers for my i1pro2 and DTP94.

The i1pro2 seems to work fine, but using the DTP94 i get a message box titled "error setting observer" saying "unsupported function".

The meter used to work correctly in earlier versions with the XdsIII.dll driver.

 

Does anyone have an idea?

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post #2548 of 4001 Old 11-09-2013, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi!

I just installed HCFR 3.1.0.0 using argyll drivers for my i1pro2 and DTP94.
The i1pro2 seems to work fine, but using the DTP94 i get a message box titled "error setting observer" saying "unsupported function".
The meter used to work correctly in earlier versions with the XdsIII.dll driver.

Does anyone have an idea?

Tis a bug, you can ignore that message and I'll have it fixed shortly.
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post #2549 of 4001 Old 11-09-2013, 03:43 AM
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Wow, what a quick response. Thanks!

 

I just realized despite the error message it does give me readings. However clicking the "calibrate meter" button will also yield that message, but won't notify me about a succesful calibration.

Is that message just suppressed, because of that bug or is the calibration option broken anyway?

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post #2550 of 4001 Old 11-09-2013, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
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You should see two messages after hitting the calibrate button, the first will be either "no calibrations needed" or an instruction like "display 80% white pattern" depending on probe type. The second message willl say "device is now calibrated".

I've updated the 3.1.0.0 install package with the fix for "unsupported function" so see how that does.
zoyd is online now  
Reply Display Calibration

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