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post #2791 of 5065 Old 12-03-2013, 05:08 PM
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Larry, for a better comparison you should calibrate a bt1886 curve which has average gamma the same as your power law gamma calibration. What you have in your picture is probably a slightly above 2.3gamma bt1886 compared to 2.22 power law, so it isn't really a comparable comparison. What you will probably see when you calibrate an avg 2.22 bt1886 curve is that more shadow detail is exposed than your power law gamma.
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post #2792 of 5065 Old 12-03-2013, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k View Post

Larry, for a better comparison you should calibrate a bt1886 curve which has average gamma the same as your power law gamma calibration. What you have in your picture is probably a slightly above 2.3gamma bt1886 compared to 2.22 power law, so it isn't really a comparable comparison. What you will probably see when you calibrate an avg 2.22 bt1886 curve is that more shadow detail is exposed than your power law gamma.

Thanks, but no. I have been playing with bt1886 since it came out. Actually, since before that. Remember, zoyd?

Average gamma means very little to me. For a linear curve on that chart, a point gamma of 1.0 at 10% and 3.0 at 90% will yield an average gamma of 2.0 but the picture will not look very good.smile.gif

Thanks again for your concern but if I need help, I will ask for it.

All's good though.

Larry
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post #2793 of 5065 Old 12-03-2013, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

I find bt1886 much too dark for the VT60. Using your 120 cd/m^2 and a typical black level of 0.005 cd/m^2, you get the following transfer functions:


For this TV, I prefer a gamma closer to the 2.22 power law curve shown -- or maybe a bit higher, say 2.25 or so.

The face color problem probably is not associated with the gamma curve or ABL. Try reducing the Color control. A setting of 47 seems optimum for the VT series.

Larry

2.25 is perfect.
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post #2794 of 5065 Old 12-03-2013, 06:25 PM
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Once my 55VT60 reaches 300 hours, I'm going to touch-up my main calibration using BT.1886 on Pro1 and then do a calibration to 2.22/2.25 on Pro2 and see which I like more. Although some calibrator's say that messing with the gamma controls on plasma's is not a good idea since depending on the patterns used, it's like shooting a moving target. (I will be using GCD 10% standard patterns and/or maybe Mascior's 6.5% standard patterns if I can get my meter to reach that window.) All using the latest HCFR fork.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings
Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings
HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT660 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60
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post #2795 of 5065 Old 12-03-2013, 06:26 PM
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Larry, no disrespect intended, you clearly have a better grasp on this topic than I do.

Cheers
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post #2796 of 5065 Old 12-03-2013, 06:55 PM
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10k, no problem. smile.gif

Larry
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post #2797 of 5065 Old 12-03-2013, 10:34 PM
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I was using 3.0.4.2, which was very good, and recently switched to 3.1.0.4 which is even better.

The only problem I have is an "unexpected file format" error when trying to open the previous version's chc files. This works fine on my laptop, but not on my HTPC, both of which are running Windows7/64. I can work around it on the HTPC, but any idea on how to troubleshoot or fix this?
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post #2798 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 02:05 AM
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Thanks for the reply.
Indeed my second attempt with those patterns has been with target 100 cd/mq and 2.22 gamma and the image is more natural and less 'ultra pop' like the first shot.
The resulting grey scale is less 'perfect', but clearly best than those I can get with the other patterns I tried.

Did you try the 4% patterns? Does they worth a shot?

The ABL guess wasn't concerning the gamma curve, but the brightness.


@Zoyd: Is it possible to introduce in HCFR generator image the possibility to create ABL patterns like GCD?
A parameter like 'background intensity' that keep the overall brightness constant regardless the grey step and the size of the window.
The formula is something like this (z - yA)/(1-A) where z is overall brightess, y the grey step and A the window size.
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post #2799 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 04:30 AM
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Here is a probably theoretical question, but which CCSS generated from X-rite EDR (colormunki) would you guys use to correctly measure/determine/plot the NATIVE gamut of a plasma in non-restricted WIDE native gamut mode (most 2013 Panasonics with ZT60 on top, covering 98% DCI)...somehow I doubt that general Plasma spectral sample would give correct results as it may have been taken from a plasma with REC709 restricted mode...would a Wide Gamut RGB LED sample be more appropriate? Could you or even would you dare, then, calibrate such a plasma as close to DCI P3 as it can get?
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post #2800 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeder82 View Post

@Zoyd: Is it possible to introduce in HCFR generator image the possibility to create ABL patterns like GCD?
A parameter like 'background intensity' that keep the overall brightness constant regardless the grey step and the size of the window.
The formula is something like this (z - yA)/(1-A) where z is overall brightess, y the grey step and A the window size.
I believe you are referring to the "View Images" generator which already has those parameters:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1393853/fork-of-hcfr-started-whats-needed/2670#post_23958527
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post #2801 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 05:31 AM
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Yes, but maybe I explained wrong.. or bad understood the meaning of 'Background level'.

Correct me if I wrong, if I set 'Background level' to 22%, the background stays to 22% of brightness for all the steps of the grey scale. What I asked is a feature that sets the overall screen brightness to 22%, changing the background level for each step.

Maybe there's already something like this, but I don't know how reproduce it.
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post #2802 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 05:35 AM
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Please one question: what settings for deltaE's calculation the way it was before 3.1 version? I find current values way too optimistic! smile.gif Thanks
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post #2803 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeder82 View Post

Yes, but maybe I explained wrong.. or bad understood the meaning of 'Background level'.

Correct me if I wrong, if I set 'Background level' to 22%, the background stays to 22% of brightness for all the steps of the grey scale. What I asked is a feature that sets the overall screen brightness to 22%, changing the background level for each step.

Maybe there's already something like this, but I don't know how reproduce it.
I believe you are correct in that the background will stay at that level. But I'm fairly sure that GCD APL uses a constant background too, and not an overall constant % for each step. Maybe I'm wrong about that?
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post #2804 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

I believe you are correct in that the background will stay at that level. But I'm fairly sure that GCD APL uses a constant background too, and not an overall constant % for each step.

1. HCFR uses constant video level backgrounds (stimulus not luminance).
2. GCD uses constant average video level over the entire patterns (again stimulus not luminance) so the background video level changes with each window.

I could implement the GCD approach into HCFR but I've found that how you raise the luminance floor for plasmas (constant average video level, constant average luminance (equal energy), or fixed video level backgrounds) does not make much difference in stabilizing gamma. Once you get average luminance levels above about 3% gamma stabilizes.
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post #2805 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mytbyte View Post

Here is a probably theoretical question, but which CCSS generated from X-rite EDR (colormunki) would you guys use to correctly measure/determine/plot the NATIVE gamut of a plasma in non-restricted WIDE native gamut mode (most 2013 Panasonics with ZT60 on top, covering 98% DCI)...somehow I doubt that general Plasma spectral sample would give correct results as it may have been taken from a plasma with REC709 restricted mode...would a Wide Gamut RGB LED sample be more appropriate? Could you or even would you dare, then, calibrate such a plasma as close to DCI P3 as it can get?

LarryInRI compared the generic plasma EDR to his home-brew ccss on the VT60 and there was little or no difference. He would have to repeat that experiment using wide gamut primaries to answer that question. Wide gamut RGB LED primaries do not look anything like plasma wide gamut primaries so you can't use those. Aside from that, what material would this be used for?
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post #2806 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Please one question: what settings for deltaE's calculation the way it was before 3.1 version? I find current values way too optimistic! smile.gif Thanks

I assume you mean for grayscale?

Closest match is CIE76(uv) and for the previous switch "Use L in grayscale dE"

unchecked is the same as "Relative Y" (this is most sensitive to chromaticity errors)
checked is the same as "w/gamma" (this includes luminance errors in the grayscale)

You can also increase the sensitivity of the grayscale error calculation by switching to "Gray world" weighting.
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post #2807 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I could implement the GCD approach into HCFR [....] Once you get average luminance levels above about 3% gamma stabilizes.
You're the boss, it could be an option to simulate more kind of patterns for HTPC users. I don't know how complicated it could be and which are the other current priorities.

3% of average luminance is the equivalent of 6% window pattern, right?
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post #2808 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

LarryInRI compared the generic plasma EDR to his home-brew ccss on the VT60 and there was little or no difference. He would have to repeat that experiment using wide gamut primaries to answer that question. Wide gamut RGB LED primaries do not look anything like plasma wide gamut primaries so you can't use those. Aside from that, what material would this be used for?

Thanks...so perhaps an interesting experiment for Larry to try and report back or generate a CCSS if/when he has some spare time and good will...biggrin.gif

The material would be custom-generated P3 material from a color-grading session on a Windows platform for independent short ...this is just an idea which would need to be confirmed in a test cinema projection on a true calibrated P3 projector...the idea sprung from observing that reds and greens become significantly more saturated in NATIVE gamut mode on an ST60 ...(curiously enough, reds get more subdued on Samsung plasmas in native gamut mode)...
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post #2809 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeder82 View Post

You're the boss, it could be an option to simulate more kind of patterns for HTPC users. I don't know how complicated it could be and which are the other current priorities.

3% of average luminance is the equivalent of 6% window pattern, right?

3% average luminance means the average over all pixels luminance is 3% of peak white.

A 10% video level, 6% size window pattern on a black background will generate an average luminance of 0.1^2.2 * 0.06 = 0.38% on 2.2 gamma display.

The maximum average luminance using a 6% window will be 1.0 * 0.06 = 6%.
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post #2810 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

I was using 3.0.4.2, which was very good, and recently switched to 3.1.0.4 which is even better.

The only problem I have is an "unexpected file format" error when trying to open the previous version's chc files. This works fine on my laptop, but not on my HTPC, both of which are running Windows7/64. I can work around it on the HTPC, but any idea on how to troubleshoot or fix this?
Update: I installed the latest version on another Win7/64 PC and it can read the old chc files without a problem as well. I'll see if I can figure out what's different on the HTPC.
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post #2811 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

Update: I installed the latest version on another Win7/64 PC and it can read the old chc files without a problem as well. I'll see if I can figure out what's different on the HTPC.

You may have some problems reading files saved from version 3.0.4.2 or 3.0.4.3 depending on what options were selected. If you have any of these you can send them to me via pm and I can convert to current versions.
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post #2812 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

A 10% video level, 6% size window pattern on a black background will generate an average luminance of 0.1^2.2 * 0.06 = 0.38% on 2.2 gamma display.
My bad, I was thinking about to the average brightness in a complete grey scale reading, but I was wrong in that case too.

Anyway.. is it a new feature that you could consider to implement? Thanks.
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post #2813 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

You may have some problems reading files saved from version 3.0.4.2 or 3.0.4.3 depending on what options were selected. If you have any of these you can send them to me via pm and I can convert to current versions.
Thanks for that info. After reading your post I found that I can open them in 3.0.4.2, change the Generator from View Images to DVD Manual, and after saving them they open in 3.1.0.4 without any issue.
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post #2814 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 10:25 AM
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Zoyd,

For the View Images generator, would it be possible to add about a .5 second delay between the display of the first image and the first meter read, especially for any of the primary/secondary/saturation measures? For example, for the Primaries, display the Red image, wait .5 seconds, then measure Red, and then follow with the normal timings for the rest of the color readings. Maybe it is just my display, but sometimes I find my display lags on that first Red reading (and the first 0% Blue saturation), and HCFR measures it before it is stable on the screen resulting in about .006xy difference from the normal measure.


Thanks,
JD
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post #2815 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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The program will wait Dynamic iris->"Latency time" after the display of the color and prior to each measurement. This defaults to 250 ms, can you check what you need this value to be to avoid a misread on the first pattern? If it's much longer than the default I can add an extra wait period for just the 1st pattern in any sequence.
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post #2816 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 10:57 AM
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Okay, I will try increasing it later and let you know the results. It's not really a big deal - I can usually get a good first reading if I move the mostly white confirmation box out from under the probe, and instead have the probe focused on HCFR's blue-gray background before starting the reading.
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post #2817 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 03:49 PM
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Hi Zoyd,

I would like to ask if the latest version is fully compatible with ColorMunki Photo (Spectro) to calibrate the projectors. And is there anything special what I have to do? (I read the wiki, but I do not fully understand)...

Thank you and sorry for my english

George
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post #2818 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeCZ View Post

Hi Zoyd,

I would like to ask if the latest version is fully compatible with ColorMunki Photo (Spectro) to calibrate the projectors. And is there anything special what I have to do? (I read the wiki, but I do not fully understand)...

Thank you and sorry for my english

George

Hi George,

yes, fully compatible. After installation you must remove the Xrite driver if it's installed. Then install the driver for the spectrometer from the Drivers folder.
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post #2819 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 04:08 PM
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Once again, thank you very much for the quick reply Zoyd. Just one short question for my peace of mind than I will buy ColorMunki . I read somewhere about the UV filter problem. But it was only a problem with older versions of the Calman software is not it true?(that's why I asked just to calibrate the projectors / monitors).

George
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post #2820 of 5065 Old 12-04-2013, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not aware of any UV filter problem associated with this meter. Usually a UV filter is needed only for profiling certain types of paper. It's not needed for emissive displays or projectors. I have some measurements on a plasma here which show good agreement with an i1pro 2.
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