[SOLVED] CalMan v4.5 w/ i1Display Pro help with Samsung UNXXD8000 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 02-24-2012, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

I have a new Samsung UN55D8000 (manual here) and I am taking a crack at DIY calibration after reading this forum for a few weeks. I realize that I still have a lot to learn, and I was hoping for some advice from some of you far more experienced guys.

I picked up a new i1 Display Pro and a CalMan DIY license and spent a good 10 hours total learning CalMan 4.5 and the ins and outs of the UND8000's available controls, and tried to calibrate it with the Standard_DDC workflow. I used the Panasonic BDT210 (that so many of you recommended) and the AVS Blu-Ray calibration disc as a source. Here's what I observed (chart album here: http://imgur.com/a/sbSow#0):

0. My set started off very blue out of the box. I confirmed this with my eye pretty easily. Time to calibrate.



1. Some of the basic contrast/brightness charts on the AVS Blu-Ray (that I got off of the CalMan site) do not match the example charts. Not a big deal- I actually liked the ones on the disc better since they flash and make it somewhat easier- but I was curious as to why there was a delta there.

2. Gamma was pretty close out of the box. Any movement up or down and the chart looked worse, so I left it alone.



3. Dialing in the color gamut was easy, and from what I can tell, I was pretty successful here.



4. White balance is where everything went to hell. There is a 10p white balance scale on this TV and I was determined to use it. On my very first try, at first it was easy. I started at 10%, and worked my way up. By the time I reached the mid-points, I noticed that I wasn't able to get anywhere NEAR zero on the RGB balance scale. Then towards the upper end of the scale, getting RGB balanced at all became impossible. 80% would be too blue. 90% would be too green. 100% would be too red. If I tried to correct any of them, the other two would get worse. It became a game of whackamole.



What I then discovered was three things:
a. The 10p adjustments were very coarse at the low end, and extremely fine at the high end.
b. There was a "shift" of control as I went up. In other words, the controls got shifted away from the scale I was trying to measure. 1 seemed to affect 10%, 2, 20%.. however towards the top, 9 affected 100%, 8 affected 90%, etc.
c. The general "white balance" controls are ACTIVE when the 10p controls are enabled on this TV. They offer RGB controls for "offset" (low end) and "gain" (high end). It was only when I started to play with these controls at the extremes that I was able to get any sort of consistent RGB balance at all, regardless of how far off I am from 0.


5. My final result was the image below. As you can see, 90% and 100% are different from the rest. Calibrating these two was a huge pain. 90% was too green, so I'd correct it, and 100% would be too red. I bounced back and forth until I could get a compromise between both of them.



The result is much better that what the TV was at stock, of course... but I put in "The Dark Knight" Blu-Ray and it still doesn't quite look just right yet. I think I'm losing some detail in the low end, but I can't be sure. Is it related to my crazy-whacked-out 10p chart? I went back to verify that the overall brightness/contrast were correct on the provided charts.

Any advice on setting a 10p white balance in a way of NOT running into the problems I saw? What strategy do you guys use? Was I correct in starting from the bottom and working my way up? Should I have to use the "general white balance" controls to make this work? Or is all of this "normal" for a edge-lit LCD set like the UN55D8000? Should I have bothered with the 10% level (I thought the i1 Display Pro should be able to handle this).

Thanks in advance for any advice given- I appreciate your time guys.

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned)
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post #2 of 26 Old 02-24-2012, 07:41 AM
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I would have started with the 2 point controls and get them as close as you can and then tweak the 10p from there. I always start at 80 first and then do the lower end. Any error in green is a bad one. For the 90 percent to be that much error in green is going to make it look bad in my opinion. Much better to let the blue fall wherever it falls. I never do a calibration that has green over 100%.
Try lowering your contrast to get your Y down at 100 percent and see if it makes a difference. I have done a few LG sets that they would not clip no matter what you set the contrast at but it would wreck the greyscale.
Also try, if you have moved the Green cut or gain at any level get it back to default and try and tweak the blue and or red only.

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post #3 of 26 Old 02-24-2012, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks madkaw- that's some good advice... I'll try that tonight.

Once you get your 2p controls set, do you adjust the 10p from the top down, or the bottom up? Or go from the middle and work outwards?

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned)
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post #4 of 26 Old 02-24-2012, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Thanks madkaw- that's some good advice... I'll try that tonight.

Once you get your 2p controls set, do you adjust the 10p from the top down, or the bottom up? Or go from the middle and work outwards?

I would get the 70-80 first then work on the 30-50. You will probably find that moving the 10% control will make the 10-20 look really nice but will monkey up the 30-40. Sometimes you can fix it but I have seen controls that work in the opposite direction if pushed to far. Like if -2 on red is better but you need -4, -4 might actually be worse.Sometimes just because they give you the clicks doesnt mean they actually work.

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post #5 of 26 Old 02-24-2012, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madkaw View Post


I would get the 70-80 first then work on the 30-50. You will probably find that moving the 10% control will make the 10-20 look really nice but will monkey up the 30-40. Sometimes you can fix it but I have seen controls that work in the opposite direction if pushed to far. Like if -2 on red is better but you need -4, -4 might actually be worse.Sometimes just because they give you the clicks doesnt mean they actually work.

Ok sounds good- what about the massive dive my 10p chart takes in the low end? If I do this correctly, the chart should be flat, correct? Would the low end dip that I have now explain the loss of detail I'm seeing in dark areas of "The Dark Knight"?

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned)
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post #6 of 26 Old 02-24-2012, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Ok sounds good- what about the massive dive my 10p chart takes in the low end? If I do this correctly, the chart should be flat, correct? Would the low end dip that I have now explain the loss of detail I'm seeing in dark areas of "The Dark Knight"?

It could but also check that you are not clipping the black, there are certain scenes in that movie that are easy to loose shadows.
Dont get too caught up in the chart on that 10% mark, you can make yourself crazy. That is why some charts dont even include the 10 mark in the cal report.

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post #7 of 26 Old 02-24-2012, 10:13 AM
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Unfortunately you didn't indicate any of your settings/modes that you're using. Are you using movie, Warm 1, Warm 2? Do you have all the enhancements turned off?

Did you recheck black level settings after white balance? It looks to me that you may be showing below black.

I've also seen funky low end RGB charts when green was adjusted rather than red and blue. Adjusting green should be the last resort.


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post #8 of 26 Old 02-24-2012, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Unfortunately you didn't indicate any of your settings/modes that you're using.

You're right- I'll post them next time.

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Are you using movie, Warm 1, Warm 2?

Warm 2. It was the closest to the Calman initial setup measurements (I forget what it's called).

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Do you have all the enhancements turned off?

Yes.

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Did you recheck black level settings after white balance? It looks to me that you may be showing below black.

Yes- it seemed to be ok but I may have missed something.

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I've also seen funky low end RGB charts when green was adjusted rather than red and blue. Adjusting green should be the last resort.

This is the #1 thing that I've learned today. I really had no idea last night while I was calibrating. Thanks guys!!!

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned)
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post #9 of 26 Old 02-24-2012, 11:07 AM
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Please let us know how you make out.


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post #10 of 26 Old 02-24-2012, 11:20 AM
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Your brightness might be a click too high also, that bump in gamma at 10 kind of shows that. It is not the perfect way to set brightness but your percentage at 10 is a little high relative to the 100ire numbers.

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post #11 of 26 Old 02-25-2012, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are my full updated charts: http://imgur.com/a/bDHci#6

So here's the update: I think I did it. I'm very happy now. You guys rock. The advice to leave green alone while calibrating 10p was huge.

Here are the 10p results:

Uncalibrated


Calibration - Trial 1


Calibration - Trial 2




Old "Trial 1" 10p graph, New "Trial 2" 10p graph



As you can see, I left green alone, completely. I probably could have adjusted a bit to straighten out the luminance, but I'm within "5" on the new chart so I was happy. Only thing I was slightly concerned about was the blue error at 20- any correction I made was too far in either direction. The controls are just too coarse at that end. But thankfully, I can't detect it with my eye. Any advice here guys? Or does this look good to you? All that said, I'm probably going to stick with this- it looks great to my eye.


I took some photos with a DSLR. There might be slight glare (it's morning now). Here are before and after (uncalibrated to trial 2 calibration):

Uncalibrated


Calibrated (Trial 2)


Uncalibrated


Calibrated (Trial 2)


Uncalibrated


Calibrated (Trial 2)


Uncalibrated


Calibrated (Trial 2)



And finally, here are my settings for those who want them. However, I should note that this experience has taught me that sharing settings is a waste of time... my results with this DIY calibration are far better to my eye than any UNXXD8000 settings I found on the web. I should also note that I calibrated with all special features turned off, then turned on a couple that I *must* have with this TV (to hide its flaws, such as flashlighting) and then readjusted the brightness to compensate. The result has been pretty spectacular- my girlfriend was blown away by the difference. So I'm providing my settings for those who want to play with them- but if any of you are serious about calibrating this display, at the very least do a calibration by-eye with a patterns disc (contrast, brightness, color, tint). If you're serious, go ahead and hire a professional- this experience has given me newfound respect for what they do. It takes a TON of time, it's tedious, and the equipment (that they use) is extremely expensive. If you like to play with tech and don't mind enduring a somewhat harsh learning curve, you might also want to consider the DIY route- I'm glad I did. Total cost was $400 for the colorimeter (new) and the CalMan software DIY license. Now I'm just going to have to do everything I can to limit the colorimeter from drifting so I can use this on future displays.


Make Samsung
Model UN55D8000
Revision H303
Build Date December 2011



Calibration "Trial 2"
Calibration Date: 2/24/2012
Colorimeter: X-Rite i1Display Pro (purchased Feb 2012)
Software: SpectraCal CalMan v4.5.0.341/341/335 - DIY License
Source: Panasonic BDT210 Blu-Ray player with the AVS HD 707 1.2b Blu-Ray patterns disc

Basic Settings
Picture Mode Movie
Backlight 16
Contrast 87
Brightness 48
Sharpness 14
Color 50
Tint 50/50

Advanced Settings
Black Tone Dark Off
Dynamic Contrast Low Off
Gamma 1

Color Space
Red R51 G0 B2
Green R5 G57 B0
Blue R0 G1 B64
Yellow R53 G55 B0
Cyan R0 G56 B58
Magenta R52 G0 B57

White Balance (coarse grain)
R-Offset 26
G-Offset 25
B-Offset 23
R-Gain 26
G-Gain 25
B-Gain 12

10p White Balance
1 R0 G0 B0
2 R0 G0 B0
3 R-1 G0 B-1
4 R-1 G0 B0
5 R-1 G0 B1
6 R-2 G0 B1
7 R1 G0 B0
8 R1 G0 B0
9 R0 G0 B-4
10 R0 B0 B-10

Edge Enhancement Off
Motion Lighting Off
xvYCC Off
LED Motion Plus Cinema Off

Picture Options
Color Tone Warm 2
Digital Noise filter Auto
MPEG Noise Filter Auto
HDMI Black Level Normal
Film Mode Off
Auto Motion Plus Off
Smart LED High Off
Cinema Black Off



Thanks again, madkaw and dsskid! You two saved me a ton of frustration.
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Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned)
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post #12 of 26 Old 02-25-2012, 10:47 AM
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Nice job.


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post #13 of 26 Old 02-27-2012, 06:22 AM
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Glad you got it worked out. Looks very nice.

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post #14 of 26 Old 02-27-2012, 12:15 PM
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Looks great, I get my set in tomorrow, will give these settings a shot. Thanks!
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post #15 of 26 Old 02-27-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Here are my full updated charts:
However, I should note that this experience has taught me that sharing settings is a waste of time... my results with this DIY calibration are far better to my eye than any UNXXD8000 settings I found on the web. I should also note that I calibrated with all special features turned off, then turned on a couple that I *must* have with this TV (to hide its flaws, such as flashlighting) and then readjusted the brightness to compensate. The result has been pretty spectacular- my girlfriend was blown away by the difference. So I'm providing my settings for those who want to play with them- but if any of you are serious about calibrating this display, at the very least do a calibration by-eye with a patterns disc (contrast, brightness, color, tint). If you're serious, go ahead and hire a professional- this experience has given me newfound respect for what they do. It takes a TON of time, it's tedious, and the equipment (that they use) is extremely expensive. If you like to play with tech and don't mind enduring a somewhat harsh learning curve, you might also want to consider the DIY route- I'm glad I did. Total cost was $400 for the colorimeter (new) and the CalMan software DIY license. Now I'm just going to have to do everything I can to limit the colorimeter from drifting so I can use this on future displays.

Wow, those before and after shots are amazing. In fact, I was browsing the thread looking for some before and after shots to judge the value of calibration. I have used some settings posted in a thread, but to be honest they are underwhelming.

I am trying to decide right now if I should spend 250-400 and trying to calibrate myself or spend $450 and have a pro do it.

Any thoughts? I have a cousin TV to yours the PND7000. I kind of like the idea of tinkering with calibration.

How hard and how much time did it take? (I don't mind spending time cause that is what hobbies are for, but I don't want to try for hours and hours and fail.)
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Originally Posted by gadianton View Post

Wow, those before and after shots are amazing. In fact, I was browsing the thread looking for some before and after shots to judge the value of calibration. I have used some settings posted in a thread, but to be honest they are underwhelming.

I am trying to decide right now if I should spend 250-400 and trying to calibrate myself or spend $450 and have a pro do it.

Any thoughts? I have a cousin TV to yours the PND7000. I kind of like the idea of tinkering with calibration.

How hard and how much time did it take? (I don't mind spending time cause that is what hobbies are for, but I don't want to try for hours and hours and fail.)

You won't fail! If you buy the meter and software you will put forth enough effort that you won't fail. Then again, If you can afford a pro, hire one that educates and you will know if you want to get into the hobby next time.. or if you are in the Philadelphia, I am a DIY Enthusiast who would be willing to help you out as far as a demo calibration on your set goes.. I get experience, you find out what calibrations is about and get a good picture..

Doug

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post #17 of 26 Old 02-27-2012, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadianton View Post

Wow, those before and after shots are amazing. In fact, I was browsing the thread looking for some before and after shots to judge the value of calibration. I have used some settings posted in a thread, but to be honest they are underwhelming.

I am trying to decide right now if I should spend 250-400 and trying to calibrate myself or spend $450 and have a pro do it.

Any thoughts? I have a cousin TV to yours the PND7000. I kind of like the idea of tinkering with calibration.

How hard and how much time did it take? (I don't mind spending time cause that is what hobbies are for, but I don't want to try for hours and hours and fail.)

Does the PND7000 come with a "THX" mode? I heard that some of the PND models have such a mode and that calibration is almost dead on out of the box. I figured this was because there was less variance with Plasmas and calibrating an entire production line was more practical.

Anyway, here's why I decided to go the DIY route: I wanted to have a pro do it, but I'm *definitely* that type of person who would start to mess with the controls the second that he left. I knew that I needed a way to tinker with it and get feedback. Therefore, I decided to buy the X-Rite i1Display Pro ($200 retail box, buy.com) and the CalMan 4.5 DIY license ($200 online code). Downside to this is that the colorimeter will supposedly drift (I don't know how long it'll take) and I'll eventually have to get it re-calibrated. In all, it probably took around 18 hours of my time total. This includes time to install the software, figure it out, play with the settings disc, and 2 complete calibration trials. Now that I know what I'm doing, I think I could get it under 6- maybe 4 if I work quickly and the TV's controls are good enough.

On that same note- dsskid, madkaw, do you know how much it costs to get a colorimeter (i1 Display Pro) recalibrated? How does that work usually? How long do they take to drift, assuming proper precautions are taken (plastic ziplock bag, dessicants, etc.).

Anyway, if you have a single display and you think you'll be able to control yourself from messing with the picture, go with a professional listed on these forums. After doing it myself, even though I'm very pleased with the results, I have extreme respect for what they do, and I definitely believe in the value of their service now.

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned)
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post #18 of 26 Old 02-27-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

On that same note- dsskid, madkaw, do you know how much it costs to get a colorimeter (i1 Display Pro) recalibrated? How does that work usually? How long do they take to drift, assuming proper precautions are taken (plastic ziplock bag, dessicants, etc.).

Annually. Send it into SpectraCal. $175.


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post #19 of 26 Old 02-29-2012, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post


On that same note- dsskid, madkaw, do you know how much it costs to get a colorimeter (i1 Display Pro) recalibrated? How does that work usually? How long do they take to drift, assuming proper precautions are taken (plastic ziplock bag, dessicants, etc.).

I dont even recommend sending them in, it is much easier to buy a new one. By the time you pay for shipping and then the cal it is not worth it. This is why I tell everyone to get a one eye pro if they can, it will last for years, and you can always profile other meters off of it. I have a display 2 that is 3 years old, the red has drifted by 15%. I made a profile off my one eye pro and that is what I let all my buddies use to do there stuff. I bought a back up one eye pro off ebay and it was 2 years overdue for calibration. (3 years old). It was still within specs after all that time.

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post #20 of 26 Old 02-29-2012, 09:32 AM
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Thanks for the advice. I decided to go with one of the pros for now. I only have 1 display and I am more anxious to get it looking good ASAP. I probably wouldn't have the time to do it myself for a few weeks.

I think what I'll do is get a meter and software a few months down the line and learn how to use it so I can recalibrate when needed.
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post #21 of 26 Old 02-29-2012, 09:42 AM
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For one display, especially plasma or LCD, hire a pro and be done with it. You'll get good results, if you stick with someone reputable, learn a lot, and will see very little drift over the life of the display (provided it already has some hours on it). However, for multiple displays or for front projection, it's almost always going to be more cost effective to DIY. For front projection, it's not unusual to see 3 totally different calibration results over the life of a single bulb!
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post #22 of 26 Old 02-29-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Rider View Post

For one display, especially plasma or LCD, hire a pro and be done with it. You'll get good results, if you stick with someone reputable, learn a lot, and will see very little drift over the life of the display (provided it already has some hours on it). However, for multiple displays or for front projection, it's almost always going to be more cost effective to DIY. For front projection, it's not unusual to see 3 totally different calibration results over the life of a single bulb!

How many hours do you recommend before calibration? My plasma is a week old and probably has 40 or so hours on it. (I'll have to figure out the Samsung service menu thing to find out for sure.)
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post #23 of 26 Old 02-29-2012, 10:29 AM
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I would recommend at least 200 -250 hours, if you have not done any break-in on the panel, or you can expedite some by running break-in slides, and may potentially see other benefits, discussed here: New Plasma Break-In. I know D-Nice has a 150 hour burn-in process that he worked out specifically for the new Panny VT Plasmas that works well. I recently did a 65" VT30, and the uniformity was excellent right out of the break-in period. It calibrated quite well!
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post #24 of 26 Old 02-29-2012, 12:48 PM
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Dark Rider is spot on, I usually recommend 150-200 hrs. Be careful in that samsung service menu, I wish I had a dollar for everytime I was asked how to fix "I clicked on the hdmi cal" setting.

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post #25 of 26 Old 02-29-2012, 03:52 PM
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A plasma can be calibrated right out of the box. Gray scale is not going to change significantly if you do it right away. But there is no harm in waiting.. A projector is a completely different story...

Doug

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post #26 of 26 Old 01-06-2013, 06:31 PM
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Sorry for the super bump but did you return this set?!?!
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