How much would a hard cali help this TV? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Ill list my setup, audio and video and TV video settings to the best of my knowledge (currently getting the panel replaced under warranty) and see what all if anything I could improve or you guys could recommend.

TV: Panasonic Plasma TC-P50G20
Blu Ray Player: Panasonic BD-75K
Audio Receiver: Pioneer 521-K

Custom Video Mode:
Brightness 45
Contrast 50
Color 50
Sharpness 0 ( I read that most high end TV's especially on blu ray don't need ANY sharpening on the edges ) and there are some more advanced settings I cant remember until it gets back from the shop and I re-run my calibration disc.

I work at Magnolia Home Theater in a Best Buy and felt the picture was VERY good via the settings on the TV after the calibration disc was ran and before the panel went out, just wondering what a hard calibration (since I get an employee discount) would do for me more so than the disc and if its worth the money (the disc was free from work rep).
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post #2 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 05:14 AM
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A calibration disc will get you 65-70% of the way there.

Is a full calibration worth it? Only you can decide what represents value to you.

How discerning is your eye? If you're very happy with the setting produced by the disc, perhaps that is enough for you. Since there are no CMS control on the G20, a full calibration will correct the grayscale, and give you better color accuracy than using a blue filter.

Also, how good is the calibrator at your store?

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post #3 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 05:51 AM
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Greetings

The THX mode is generally the most accurate mode in the TV, not the custom mode.

There is no sharpness control in the THX mode, it is a placebo and does nothing.

A calibration disc will indeed get a person most of the way there, but it assumes that they can follow the instructions correctly and in my experience, half the people out there fail in this area. 100% say they do it right, 50% actually do it right, but they all still say they do it right.

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post #4 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings


A calibration disc will indeed get a person most of the way there, but it assumes that they can follow the instructions correctly and in my experience, half the people out there fail in this area. 100% say they do it right, 50% actually do it right, but they all still say they do it right.

Regards

Can you provide any examples of common errors you might find after a customer has used one of these discs? Any trends?

I'm curious.
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post #5 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueX View Post


I work at Magnolia Home Theater in a Best Buy and felt the picture was VERY good via the settings on the TV after the calibration disc was ran and before the panel went out, just wondering what a hard calibration (since I get an employee discount) would do for me more so than the disc and if its worth the money (the disc was free from work rep).

Using a cal disk will certainly give you an Accurate Picture Adjustment but is not like a full calibration. Only a professional can do that (and I think most don't consider BB employees professional calibrators). Worth it is a relative term. I'd use the disk first and see if you like that. If not, shop around for a professional calibrator and check his or her's references first. A pro cal can be expensive so take your time and ask around.
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post #6 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 09:31 AM
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The purpose of video display calibration is not to adjust the picture controls until you "like" the way it looks:

'Display Calibration: Root Fundamentals'
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933

In many cases, consumers will prefer an uncalibrated image to one that is correct when the two images are placed side by side.
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post #7 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

The THX mode is generally the most accurate mode in the TV, not the custom mode.

There is no sharpness control in the THX mode, it is a placebo and does nothing.

A calibration disc will indeed get a person most of the way there, but it assumes that they can follow the instructions correctly and in my experience, half the people out there fail in this area. 100% say they do it right, 50% actually do it right, but they all still say they do it right.

Regards

Honestly at first watched everything in THX mode as I felt that would give me the most true rendition of the video...which it may well do. However, after hours and hours of testing this / that & using my calibraton disc to set brightness, contrast, color & sharpness. I felt my endgame custom settings were far superior (at least to me, everyone's eyes are different). I wrote down the THX settings from A-Z and then copied them to "Custom" and changed what I felt neccessary via using the disc. Thx seemed too dark and not as good of color seperation, also the THX mode used some presets that seem to go against getting a good picture. The THX preset brightness was fairly high at like 75 by default and contrast was maxed at 100, and in MY custom settings after the disc, all my values are 40-55 or so and zero sharpness.

I do think I did the calibration disc correctly, as we have ISF calibrators here in store (Magnolia Home Theater) and have been shown / given and how to use the "Magnolia Test Demonstration Disc Blu Ray"
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post #8 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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The brightness really helped my blacks and had a static image of a man in a black suit with a off black shirt and tie, I just lowered the brightness until I could not tell any differences in his suit / tie / shirt and then upped it 1 notch at a time until I could disctinctly pick the 3 different shades of black without having to strain the eyes. I think the final brightness value was 45-50

The contast also really helped my whites as it has a static picture of a women in a full white wedding dress, cranked the contrast to 100 until her dress looked 100% white and I could not see the ruffles and folds, then backed it down 1 notch at a time until her frills / lace / dress folds came into detail the same as I did with brightness. I think the final contrast value was 45-50 as well

For color it has a static image of 3 women side by side, one is pale, one is spot on and one looks sunburnt (thats how its SUPPOSED to look in that test). So I just cranked to color till all 3 looked sunburnt, and then again backed it down 1 notch at a time until, only 1 was sunburnt looking, the middle girl had a perfect skin tone and the pale girl, looked pale again, and all seemed to be set correctly. Also ran some of the static full screen images of the Black on Black squares as well as the White on White ones. I was VERY happy after the disc and dont think I would gain much from a hard cali. I wrote down all my settings to pick from, looked what each did on the internet to get a better idea of what controls what and after getting a better understanding, running the disc, I was very happy.

/rant off lol
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post #9 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 11:42 AM
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if your tv is like my vt25, a meter will help a lot.
the gray scale was horrendous.

Loving D65
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post #10 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Only a professional can do that (and I think most don't consider BB employees professional calibrators).

Seeing as we are the only company with ISF certified calibrators, usually an "ISF Certification" would be considered a professional. But I think I get what you mean...& no the floor sales employee's, while they mave have a good general knowledge are no pro's in this field but yes, we do in fact have ISF certified calibrators that come out and take the rear of the TV off, hookup the laptop, color analyzer etc, so far both of our ISF guys in my store have gotten VERY good feedback.
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post #11 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueX View Post

Seeing as we are the only company with ISF certified calibrators, usually an "ISF Certification" would be considered a professional. But I think I get what you mean...& no the floor sales employee's, while they mave have a good general knowledge are no pro's in this field but yes, we do in fact have ISF certified calibrators that come out and take the rear of the TV off, hookup the laptop, color analyzer etc, so far both of our ISF guys in my store have gotten VERY good feedback.

did those guys attend the ISF course themselves?
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post #12 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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They did indeed, we have 2 of them are both are 100% ISF Certified, one of the guys is an old friend of about 10 years and I dont think he would steer me wrong. Bestbuy paid for him to go to get certified and that is all he does now is TV calibrations we set up.

On a seperate note, it seems the disc's will do MOST of what I want except for fixing some possible bad grayscale issues? Im a bit unfamiliar with this term or what this is exactly?

I mean I can set my blacks but what does getting a better GRAYSCALE do for me with a hard cali, bc neither of my blu ray cali disc address anything GRAYSCALE related?

tyia
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post #13 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueX View Post

They did indeed, we have 2 of them are both are 100% ISF Certified, one of the guys is an old friend of about 10 years and I dont think he would steer me wrong. Bestbuy paid for him to go to get certified and that is all he does now is TV calibrations we set up.

On a seperate note, it seems the disc's will do MOST of what I want except for fixing some possible bad grayscale issues? Im a bit unfamiliar with this term or what this is exactly?

I mean I can set my blacks but what does getting a better GRAYSCALE do for me with a hard cali, bc neither of my blu ray cali disc address anything GRAYSCALE related?

tyia

grayscale issues can give the entire image a red, green, blue or other colored tint that no level of tweaking color/tint can fix, the grayscale is the b&w luminance portion of the video signal (the 'Y' in YCbCr) and if it is not a neutral gray from black to white (0% to 100% stimulus) then all color will be wrong irrespective of gamut work (CMS if available and color/tint)

I'm not too familiar with your set. Does it have 10-pt white balance (grayscale/gamma) controls? a CMS (color management system)? Or just 2-pt grayscale (likely in the SM)?
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post #14 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueX View Post

They did indeed, we have 2 of them are both are 100% ISF Certified, one of the guys is an old friend of about 10 years and I dont think he would steer me wrong. Bestbuy paid for him to go to get certified and that is all he does now is TV calibrations we set up.

On a seperate note, it seems the disc's will do MOST of what I want except for fixing some possible bad grayscale issues? Im a bit unfamiliar with this term or what this is exactly?

I mean I can set my blacks but what does getting a better GRAYSCALE do for me with a hard cali, bc neither of my blu ray cali disc address anything GRAYSCALE related?

tyia

You need a meter and software do adjust the gray scale accurately. This is also called white balance.
It set the color of white to the Rec 709 HD Spec of D65. Think of it as the white color of the canvas (the black and white luminous image) that the color is over laid on. If the color of white is wrong (to blue) then all the color that is over laid will be wrong. The Gray scale adjustment is to me the most important and most noticeable of all the adjustments.
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post #15 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

The Gray scale adjustment is to me the most important and most noticeable of all the adjustments.

I believe this is the general consensus; getting grayscale right greatly improves the overall color accuracy of the picture with ALL content
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post #16 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I'm not too familiar with your set. Does it have 10-pt white balance (grayscale/gamma) controls? a CMS (color management system)? Or just 2-pt grayscale (likely in the SM)?

It be fixed saturday but iirc it does not any 10-pt white balance that ive noticed throughout the settings, i think do do have the 2 grayscale thing
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post #17 of 65 Old 03-07-2012, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I believe this is the general consensus; getting grayscale right greatly improves the overall color accuracy of the picture with ALL content

thirded, think I will get it calibrated asap after it gets its new panel in 2 days, then I will see what I think of THX mode and also reapply my written down settings into Custom.
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post #18 of 65 Old 03-09-2012, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

The THX mode is generally the most accurate mode in the TV, not the custom mode

Though the THX mode may be in fact the most direct representation of how the film was filmed, it seems a bit dark and drab to me, the colors dont seem to separated and dont pop out like I want them to. I copied the THX settiogs into Custom and then made the adjustments as I felt necessary using the calibration blu ray disc and I really like my Custom settings vs the THX mode tbh. Is this just me?
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post #19 of 65 Old 03-09-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueX View Post


Though the THX mode may be in fact the most direct representation of how the film was filmed, it seems a bit dark and drab to me, the colors dont seem to separated and dont pop out like I want them to. I copied the THX settiogs into Custom and then made the adjustments as I felt necessary using the calibration blu ray disc and I really like my Custom settings vs the THX mode tbh. Is this just me?

This could just be that you are used to an overly saturated image and switching to an image that is close to calibrated is a shock for you. I'd suggest using THX for a week or two and there is a good chance you will have realized that you like the natural appearance once your brain forgets what the unnatural image looks like.

Then if you like that you can have it calibrated and get the best performance out of the display. If you don't like/want a calibrated image then it is best to figure that out before you pay someone to set it up that way.

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post #20 of 65 Old 03-09-2012, 01:40 PM
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I'd suggest using THX for a week or two and there is a good chance you will have realized that you like the natural appearance once your brain forgets what the unnatural image looks like.

I would recommend this also, since our eyes and brain can adapt to virtually any picture, whether it is accurate or way off.
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post #21 of 65 Old 03-10-2012, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I will give the THX mode another try as my panel is getting replaced in about an hour I will give it a week and see how I like it, it just seems a bit to dark. Even when I put in my calibration blu ray the THX mode brightness and contrast seemed to be lacking a bit.
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post #22 of 65 Old 03-11-2012, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Panel didnt totally fixed it so if the S board does not fix it on the 19th its getting the 30 day no lemon policy and im getting the the UT50, so meh, it has less HDMI plugs by 1 ( I only need 1 really to go IN ) but the TV itself seems an upgrade, and I like the aesthic looks of it MUCH more than the bulky frame on my 50G20
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post #23 of 65 Old 03-18-2012, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

The purpose of video display calibration is not to adjust the picture controls until you "like" the way it looks:

so pay someone to adjust your TV so that you DONT like the picture....ya nice
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post #24 of 65 Old 03-18-2012, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueX View Post

so pay someone to adjust your TV so that you DONT like the picture....ya nice

Don't be silly! What's not to like about image fidelity? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933
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post #25 of 65 Old 03-18-2012, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
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so pay someone to adjust your TV so that you DONT like the picture....ya nice

you will like the picture once you get used to it and then if you go back to the settings you were previously using, you'll see just how bad it was before the calibration

George means calibration is not about setting the TV to your personal preferences, not that that you won't like the calibrated picture.

it's objective, not subjective
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post #26 of 65 Old 03-18-2012, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

you will like the picture once you get used to it

unfortunately, for (too) many, this is not true...

We can only hope.. perhaps with education!

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post #27 of 65 Old 03-19-2012, 05:52 AM
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You don't pay someone to "adjust" your display. You pay someone to calibrate it to industry standards.

Many have become so accustomed to viewing a display that deviates greatly from industry standards, that everything else looks wrong to them.

If you are one of those who fall into this catagory, then calibration is not for you. Simply adjust your display to your individual taste, and enjoy your display.

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post #28 of 65 Old 03-19-2012, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

unfortunately, for (too) many, this is not true...

We can only hope.. perhaps with education!


I came across this thread just yesterday which does strengthen your point

you might be right, though I still believe those who are truly interested/educated about calibration will


For example, before I joined AVS and learned about calibration I was running my Panasonic Plasma in Vivid mode and thought that more color, brightness, and exaggerated contrast and sharpness was a good thing. It took a while to get used to Cinema mode, but now I would never watch any TV in a mode other than the most accurate preset (with at least the basic settings calibrated via a DVD/BD and preferably a full meter/software calibration as well).
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post #29 of 65 Old 03-20-2012, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Good valid points I guess, and I will give it a shot, buying a 39 Insignia LCD and already getting used to its lower specs and thinking in my head how nice it looks already reinforces your fact that I will indeed get used to the settings. And I see what you mean about it not be an adjustment but a calibration, still getting the run around from bestbuy AND panasonic since Feb 19th and 2 new $1453 panels that didnt fix the problem, no one has yet to call back with an escalation RA # for a new TV, getting pretty tired of this but ya I talked to our store ISF calibrator and he further explained how much it would help on the Panasonic TV's via grayscale alone
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post #30 of 65 Old 03-20-2012, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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My tab in parts alone they have put in TV is $4100 bucks so far according to panasonic, i have no clue why they would put $4100 bucks, (2 panels and an S & Y board) after 3 attempts which haven't fixed it for a TV I paid less than $1000 bucks for, just seems pretty ridiculous. AND I have no idea why I cant seem to get an RA number since its been more than 30 days and I ALSO have bestbuys warranty on the TV (which is less than a year old) and there is a 30 day "if we cant fix it" no lemon policy...seems they value the customers more than the employee's bc ive seen time and time again how a customer can come in, pitch a fit and leave with a new TV yet me as an employee being patient and taking the needed steps, im getting the shaft so far. Really irritating.
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