First Calibration - i12+AVSHD709+HCFR - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 03-19-2012, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

Just completed my first calibration of my PS50C6500 Samsung Plasma.
Took me quite a while to figure it out and I hope my results are ok.
If anyone has any further advice how I could improve then please let me know!

OK here goes.

10-100 IRE Results



RGB Tracking



Gamma



Luminance



CIE chart - Primary and Secondary Colours




Settings

Mode : Movie
Cell Light : 17
Contrast : 88
Brightness : 53
Sharpness : 0
Colour : 50
Tint : 47/53
Gamma : +1
Colour Space (Custom) : R 61,0,2, G 19, 75, 8, B 0,0,50, Y 52,63,11, C 17,40,43, M 60,0,57
White Balance : RO 24, GO 25, B0 23, RG 21, GG 24, BG 41
10p White Balance :
1 : 1 1 -1
2 : 1 1 1
3 : -1 2 0
4 : -2 -1 -1
5 : -4 -2 -5
6 : -5 -3 -5
7 : -3 -1 -3
8 : -2 0 1
9 : 0 0 -3
10 : -3 0 -1

Found that changing my Denon DVD2500BT to RGB from Ycbcr and also turning off the deep colour mode gave me a more consistent result.

Also found that any setting <20IRE fluctuated quite a bit on the RGB scale. Overall, found the experience quite frustrating at times but then stuck to my own rule in terms of the actual process. Started off at 80 IRE, used WB to get that right, then moved to 30 IRE and repeated. Then went straight into 10p WB and djusted the remainder all the way up to 100 IRE. Only once I got that as best I could i then moved onto the gamma to get that rightl, then the colours, job done. If anyone has any suggestions or tips on how to improve the result please let me know!! Cheers!

Are the results any good

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post #2 of 30 Old 03-19-2012, 01:53 PM
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All in all it look really good, but I would recommend you measure the saturation of your colour, and also show your delta luma.
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post #3 of 30 Old 03-19-2012, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

All in all it look really good, but I would recommend you measure the saturation of your colour, and also show your delta luma.

I agree, grayscale and gamma look perfect from 10% to 100%. Regarding gamut, luminance error and overall color error need to be shown.
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post #4 of 30 Old 03-19-2012, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I agree, grayscale and gamma look perfect from 10% to 100%. Regarding gamut, luminance error and overall color error need to be shown.

OK, excuse my ignorance but how do i do that in HCFR?

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post #5 of 30 Old 03-19-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

OK, excuse my ignorance but how do i do that in HCFR?

Press the drop down button (left red arrow) to select the gamut and the down arrow button to expand the datafields (right red arrow).

See attached img
LL
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post #6 of 30 Old 03-20-2012, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Stange, I went to do the colour saturation tests, ran a quick gray scale before hand and the RGB and Gamma were not as what was recorded yesterday - must say im quite puzzled......yes, i did calibrate before hand - any ideas? The colour meter is brand new.

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post #7 of 30 Old 03-20-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Stange, I went to do the colour saturation tests, ran a quick gray scale before hand and the RGB and Gamma were not as what was recorded yesterday - must say im quite puzzled......yes, i did calibrate before hand - any ideas? The colour meter is brand new.


1. Did you let the display warm up for at least 30-45 minutes before doing any readings both times?
The display will continue to change in output for as much as one hour. These times can be argued but to eliminate any doubt let the set warm up for 1 hour with the meter hanging on it if you are using contact mode.

2. Was the meter in exactly the same place as it was before?
If you take a reading in one spot, then move the meter and take it again, it can change. The panel is not perfect.

3. How far off was it? The meter has published repeatability specs, was it within those?
For instance, the C6 (Spectracal's version of the i1D3 has a repeatability spec of 2%+- so red could be 98% and green could be 102% even if they were 100 & 100 last time and it would be in spec.
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post #8 of 30 Old 03-20-2012, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

1. Did you let the display warm up for at least 30-45 minutes before doing any readings both times?
The display will continue to change in output for as much as one hour. These times can be argued but to eliminate any doubt let the set warm up for 1 hour with the meter hanging on it if you are using contact mode.

2. Was the meter in exactly the same place as it was before?
If you take a reading in one spot, then move the meter and take it again, it can change. The panel is not perfect.

3. How far off was it? The meter has published repeatability specs, was it within those?
For instance, the C6 (Spectracal's version of the i1D3 has a repeatability spec of 2%+- so red could be 98% and green could be 102% even if they were 100 & 100 last time and it would be in spec.

Hi Airscapes.

Yes, I always let the panel warm up with the metre attached, although I may not have placed the metre in the same position as yesterday, even so it wouldnt have been more than a few inches away, although it could explain the differences. Unforunately I didnt do a % comparison, although I have the metre our now and will be doing some checks in a bit.

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post #9 of 30 Old 03-20-2012, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Hi Airscapes.

Yes, I always let the panel warm up with the metre attached, although I may not have placed the metre in the same position as yesterday, even so it wouldnt have been more than a few inches away, although it could explain the differences. Unforunately I didnt do a % comparison, although I have the metre our now and will be doing some checks in a bit.

I was just about to mention that meter position can account for such variances in readings. I always center my meter using the meter position pattern on the AVS disc to keep results from one session to another as consistent as possible.

I also warm up the meter on the display powered on for at least 1 hour. I typically use a white full field on my LCD to warm it up as fast as possible, though it may be better to just leave a full screen TV show on instead on a plasma, where IR could be a problem.
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post #10 of 30 Old 03-21-2012, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Delta Luma figs.

Red seems to be all over the place - not sure what I can do about it to be honest.

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post #11 of 30 Old 03-21-2012, 11:22 AM
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Depending on if your cms is 3 dimensional try to reduce luminance for green

How did the saturation turn out?
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post #12 of 30 Old 03-21-2012, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

Depending on if your cms is 3 dimensional try to reduce luminance for green

How did the saturation turn out?

Soz, but what do you mean 3 dimensional CMS? Soz, new to this.

Saturation results as follows.

Yellow



Cyan



Magenta



Red

Whats up with 75%?????



Green



Blue



Any ideas as to how to improve?

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post #13 of 30 Old 03-21-2012, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

Depending on if your cms is 3 dimensional try to reduce luminance for green

How did the saturation turn out?

Green is already at 0 on the CMS for colour space RED.
Perhaps a service menu tweak?

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post #14 of 30 Old 03-21-2012, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I measured initially using 100% full colour windows, changed to 75% with much better results - very happy!

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post #15 of 30 Old 03-23-2012, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Red

Whats up with 75%?????



Can anyone help with the issue I have when I try to calibrate Red? I did use 100% windows, couldnt get 0.640 x 0.330 at all - is this normal for plasmas?
I then retried using 75% color windows with better success.

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post #16 of 30 Old 03-24-2012, 02:09 AM
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just come back, so will try to help a bit, but I am by far an expert.

assuming your latest measurements are the latest, then

red is not as it is on the cie chart at all.

ideally get a full set of new measurements and place your I1 in the middle using the placement pattern included on the AVS disk so you can place the I1 the same place for future measurements

here it goes:

1 try to calibrate to 75 saturation using this excel spreadsheet
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post15607437

calibrating to 75% will likely increase dE for 100% due to as you can see the color decoder in your TV is not linear, but hopefully both 25, 50 and 75% will be better.


Green: on your first chart displaying delta Luma your green is a bit high (reduce the green slider in color space for green (Y) (this might change the hue and saturation (x,y), it should not but it might however try to find a nice balance.
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post #17 of 30 Old 03-24-2012, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

just come back, so will try to help a bit, but I am by far an expert.

assuming your latest measurements are the latest, then

red is not as it is on the cie chart at all.

ideally get a full set of new measurements and place your I1 in the middle using the placement pattern included on the AVS disk so you can place the I1 the same place for future measurements

here it goes:

1 try to calibrate to 75 saturation using this excel spreadsheet
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post15607437

calibrating to 75% will likely increase dE for 100% due to as you can see the color decoder in your TV is not linear, but hopefully both 25, 50 and 75% will be better.


Green: on your first chart displaying delta Luma your green is a bit high (reduce the green slider in color space for green (Y) (this might change the hue and saturation (x,y), it should not but it might however try to find a nice balance.



Thanks for your help here, although I feel like ive hit a brick wall! Yes Ive used the exel spreadsheet but cannot hit the numbers at all for Red.

To confirm which pattern do I use to calibrate the colors? 75% color or 75% saturation color as both reds at 75% are different - one looks like a salmon pink (saturation slide) the other is a deep red (color slide)???? If I have to use the saturation slide then something is definitely wrong or ive messed up the calibration somewhere as I cannot get anywhere near the numbers as mentioned.

Thanks for your help.

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post #18 of 30 Old 03-24-2012, 12:44 PM
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It is the saturation pattern, try uploading your chc file and yur settings
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post #19 of 30 Old 03-24-2012, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

It is the saturation pattern, try uploading your chc file and yur settings

HI Visca

I think the problem is (and the more I think about it it kinda makes sense) is that the initial white balance settings are limiting my CMS controlability over the color space of the individual colors hence why I cant hit the red values.
Perhaps its the process which I am calibrating?

1. Find the right Y value for my plasma using a combo of cell light and contrast.

2. Set IRE on 30 and 80 using white balance only (using Offset for low end values, Gain for high end)

3. Fill in the gaps from 0 to 100 IRE using CMS.

4. Adjusting accordingly to hit the correct Gamma

5. Then trying to hit the correct color saturation and luminance.

This aint working.

On red 75% saturation, I cannot reduce Green or Blue in the RED color space any further to hit my target cos theyre already at zero.

God im frustrated with this damn thing.

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post #20 of 30 Old 03-24-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

HI Visca



On red 75% saturation, I cannot reduce Green or Blue in the RED color space any further to hit my target cos theyre already at zero.

Not really sure what you are doing here..
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post #21 of 30 Old 03-24-2012, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Not really sure what you are doing here..

Im trying to hit the x,y values in the colour space menu for RED, at 100% saturation that should be 0.640 x 0.330, and at 75% saturation im trying to hit 0.5582 x 0.3298, Correct?

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post #22 of 30 Old 03-24-2012, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Not really sure what you are doing here..

Samsung uses RGB controls for CMS for each color.
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post #23 of 30 Old 03-24-2012, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Samsung uses RGB controls for CMS for each color.

Yes, thanks! I figured that out after I was down stairs eating dinner.. I recall M. Chen told me that in an email "CMS ... set to custom ... the system is RGB additive/subtractive. Not Hue Sat luminance." but it didn't click when I read this post. I will be doing a Samsung next Tuesday..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Yes, thanks! I figured that out after I was down stairs eating dinner.. I recall M. Chen told me that in an email "CMS ... set to custom ... the system is RGB additive/subtractive. Not Hue Sat luminance." but it didn't click when I read this post. I will be doing a Samsung next Tuesday..

also, I believe ChromaPure lets has an option for RGB-type CMS in the color management module

CalMAN might get that as well in the future as I saw it as one of the feature requests on the SpectraCal Forum
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post #25 of 30 Old 03-25-2012, 01:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post
It is the saturation pattern, try uploading your chc file and yur settings
Heres latest HCFR file this morning.

note settings as follows.

Mode : Movie, Warm 2
Cell Light : 17
Contrast : 88
Brightness : 53
Colour : 49
Tint : 50/50
Gamma : +1
Colour Space ;

Red 72,18,26
Green 46, 69, 38
Blue 27,27,26
Yellow 55, 54, 31
Cyan 55, 60, 59
Magenta 57,37,59

White Balance

Offset
R 25
G 25
B 23

Gain
R 21
G 23
B 41

10p

1 1 1 -4
2 1 1 1
3 0 2 0
4 -1 -1 0
5 -1 -1 -3
6 -4 -4 -5
7 -2 -1 -2
8 1 0 1
9 0 0 -1
10 2 0 -1

has a kinda strange blueish tinge to whites.

I used the windowed 75% colors to set the color space, however the saturation seems to be wrong...??? really confused here - is there anything obvious im doing wrong, bearing in mind this is my first time.

For what its worth, what is the recommended process in order to calibrate ones display as their is so much different info out there?

Thanks

 

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post #26 of 30 Old 03-25-2012, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, attached is todays full calibration using 100% saturated windows.

How does it look?

 

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post #27 of 30 Old 03-25-2012, 01:33 PM
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a few comments

your delta luma is all in minus, try to notch the color control up a bit this could help.

the individual luminance is controlled the following way

for red: raise the red contol in the CMS
green - raise green
blue - raise blue

magenta - raise red and blue with the same numbers
cyan - raise green and blue with the same numbers
yellow - raise green and red with the same numbers


when you calibrate to 75% saturation,

display a 75 saturated test pattern and dial in with the CMS to fit the values from the excel sheet. The when you are done measure all saturation's again (when you measure 100% that should still be close to the reference gamut). not sure how you got the results in the first post from this morning

I am sure you would be able to

I am sure you could win something with calibrating to 75% saturation, maybe even 75% saturation/75 amplitude - but not sure that exist on the AVS disk
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post #28 of 30 Old 03-25-2012, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

a few comments

your delta luma is all in minus, try to notch the color control up a bit this could help.

the individual luminance is controlled the following way

for red: raise the red contol in the CMS
green - raise green
blue - raise blue

magenta - raise red and blue with the same numbers
cyan - raise green and blue with the same numbers
yellow - raise green and red with the same numbers


when you calibrate to 75% saturation,

display a 75 saturated test pattern and dial in with the CMS to fit the values from the excel sheet. The when you are done measure all saturation's again (when you measure 100% that should still be close to the reference gamut). not sure how you got the results in the first post from this morning

I am sure you would be able to

I am sure you could win something with calibrating to 75% saturation, maybe even 75% saturation/75 amplitude - but not sure that exist on the AVS disk

Thanks for the advice.

Although I tried to get the correct values for 75% saturation using the spreadsheet but couldnt! My 'Y' values increased too much across all colors which is why i used the 100% saturation. generally how does the result look?

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post #29 of 30 Old 03-25-2012, 02:36 PM
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The Y value should not change if you change saturation, only if you change the amplitude,

It all look good however if you are not up for calibrating to 75% saturation I would still raise the Color control to improve delta luma
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post #30 of 30 Old 03-26-2012, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

The Y value should not change if you change saturation, only if you change the amplitude,

It all look good however if you are not up for calibrating to 75% saturation I would still raise the Color control to improve delta luma

It changes if I move color up or down, and also changes if i use the CMS 'color space'. Give up with this.

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