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post #121 of 149 Old 05-13-2012, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I am not too sure what the filters are like in the Display pro 3. As they age they will change. Its a good idea to have two devices and check periodically to ensure that everything in the chain is still stable.

Has anyone bit the bullet and purchased the new i1 pro 2.? I have not had time to test it yet.

Would like to get some time comparisons between the version 1 and 2 .
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post #122 of 149 Old 05-13-2012, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandarax View Post

I am not too sure what the filters are like in the Display pro 3. As they age they will change. Its a good idea to have two devices and check periodically to ensure that everything in the chain is still stable.

Has anyone bit the bullet and purchased the new i1 pro 2.? I have not had time to test it yet.

Would like to get some time comparisons between the version 1 and 2 .


The i1 Display Pro has sealed optics so the aging should be significantly less than the previous meters with exposed filters. But they will age, with the retail meters not even being a year old yet, I don't think the amount has been quantified.

As to the differences between the i1 Pro and i1 Pro 2, for emmissive measurements they didn't do anything to significantly increase accuracy. It's still 128 sensors binned into 41 10nm increments. It does have a mechanical alignment feature that will make sure the 41 increments are accurately aligned with the 128 sensors, but that's not typically a problem. The sensor sensitivity was changed so it'll be a little bit better at low light, but not a lot. But it can also measure much brighter displays as well.

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post #123 of 149 Old 05-14-2012, 01:12 AM
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I have orded the i1PRO2, once i will receive it, i will do some comparison tests using both meters (i1PRO vs. i1PRO2) at contact mode to various displays like models of LG-LED, LG-LCD, Samsung LED, Samsung LCD, Plasmas etc. My i1PRO it's NIST re-certified at X-Rite Factory of Europe @ 15-Dec-2011 and i have used it only @ non-contact mode.

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post #124 of 149 Old 05-14-2012, 02:55 AM
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post #125 of 149 Old 05-14-2012, 09:56 AM
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post #126 of 149 Old 05-14-2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

I have orded the i1PRO2, once i will receive it, i will do some comparison tests using both meters (i1PRO vs. i1PRO2) at contact mode to various displays like models of LG-LED, LG-LCD, Samsung LED, Samsung LCD, Plasmas etc. My i1PRO it's NIST re-certified at X-Rite Factory of Europe @ 15-Dec-2011 and i have used it only @ non-contact mode.

Thanks TEDDD,
Looking forward to the results!
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post #127 of 149 Old 05-15-2012, 03:52 PM
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The NEW i1Photo Pro 2 | A New Standard for Color Management
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post #128 of 149 Old 05-17-2012, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

I have orded the i1PRO2, once i will receive it, i will do some comparison tests using both meters (i1PRO vs. i1PRO2) at contact mode to various displays like models of LG-LED, LG-LCD, Samsung LED, Samsung LCD, Plasmas etc. My i1PRO it's NIST re-certified at X-Rite Factory of Europe @ 15-Dec-2011 and i have used it only @ non-contact mode.

What excactly will you compare?

I have here a 7 week old i1 Pro and a 1 week old i1 Pro 2.

So I can also provide some comparison data.
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post #129 of 149 Old 05-17-2012, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV-Freak View Post

What excactly will you compare?

I have here a 7 week old i1 Pro and a 1 week old i1 Pro 2.

So I can also provide some comparison data.

Comparison of reading between 2 meters (similar to that test), i have access to over 80 different TV models anytime

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post #130 of 149 Old 05-23-2012, 03:41 PM
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OEM i1Pro 2 are not out until early July 2012. The retail i1Pro 2 is out and available from many sources including Amazon.

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post #131 of 149 Old 05-25-2012, 01:16 PM
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I have an i1pro and i1pro2 here. The i1pro is just over a year old. The resulting monitor calibrations are not the same. They are not drastically different, but both gamma and greyscale are slightly different...with the i1pro 2 looking more neutral on greyscale, and the gamma slightly improved in bringing out the lowest shade levels without crush.

The only thing I don't like in terms of build quality, is connecting the i1pro2 to the monitor holder device. The fit is so tight, that plastic is scraping off the holder (not the i1pro2 itself) just in the first few times of using it (others might want to look at the prongs on theirs). And it is difficult to disconnect the i1pro2 from its holder as it requires some force to pull it apart. The older twist/lock mechanism used on the i1pro was better in my opinion.
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post #132 of 149 Old 05-26-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I have an i1pro and i1pro2 here. The i1pro is just over a year old. The resulting monitor calibrations are not the same. They are not drastically different, but both gamma and greyscale are slightly different...with the i1pro 2 looking more neutral on greyscale, and the gamma slightly improved in bringing out the lowest shade levels without crush.

The only thing I don't like in terms of build quality, is connecting the i1pro2 to the monitor holder device. The fit is so tight, that plastic is scraping off the holder (not the i1pro2 itself) just in the first few times of using it (others might want to look at the prongs on theirs). And it is difficult to disconnect the i1pro2 from its holder as it requires some force to pull it apart. The older twist/lock mechanism used on the i1pro was better in my opinion.

Jon, if your monitor is a CRT, you can use the older I1 Pro CRT screen holder with the Pro 2. The Pro 2's lugs are at different locations so it will hang at about 5'o'clock instead of straight down like the Pro, but it works. The fit of my Pro 2 to its holders is very tight just like yours. My CRT RPTV also has an overhang where the bezel sticks out past the screen, so the Pro 2 monitor holder doesn't work well. The beamer holder doesn't really provide for a contact fit to the screen, so I don't use it.

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post #133 of 149 Old 05-27-2012, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

Jon, if your monitor is a CRT, you can use the older I1 Pro CRT screen holder with the Pro 2. The Pro 2's lugs are at different locations so it will hang at about 5'o'clock instead of straight down like the Pro, but it works. The fit of my Pro 2 to its holders is very tight just like yours. My CRT RPTV also has an overhang where the bezel sticks out past the screen, so the Pro 2 monitor holder doesn't work well. The beamer holder doesn't really provide for a contact fit to the screen, so I don't use it.

Thanks. It is an LCD, but I see what you mean about the lugs. Strange design change here I think. Certainly a chance for accidentally breaking things if you try and remove the Pro 2 from its holders in a hurry!
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post #134 of 149 Old 06-04-2012, 05:33 AM
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SpectraCAL has start taking orders for OEM Version of i1PRO2

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post #135 of 149 Old 07-13-2012, 03:59 PM
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Light Illusion has added the X-Rite i1PRO2 'Display Use Only' Version of the meter at their WebStore.

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post #136 of 149 Old 07-14-2012, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I have an i1pro and i1pro2 here. The i1pro is just over a year old. The resulting monitor calibrations are not the same. They are not drastically different, but both gamma and greyscale are slightly different...with the i1pro 2 looking more neutral on greyscale, and the gamma slightly improved in bringing out the lowest shade levels without crush.
I think you would probably find that there would be similar differences if you were comparing two i1Pros or i1Pro 2s as well though.
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post #137 of 149 Old 11-12-2012, 11:56 AM
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I've been following this thread with interest. However, would someone want to reword (simpler but with detail) what the thing was with reprofiling a colorimeter to a spectrophotometer when there is a CMS change (which changes the gamut?).

Perhaps I'm the only one who did not quite understand how significant this is, or is not.

Thanks:)!


edit: Allow me to explain a bit more. If you profile a meter, you are essentially saying "my expensive spectro meter says 0,0035 and my colorimeter says 0,0055". So we are going to create a matrix/table with offsets. I don't see how these offsets are suddenly invalid after making a change with a CMS?

Also it doesn't make complete sense why there should exist a profile per display type. Perhaps I should try finding how profiling is actually performed:-)

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post #138 of 149 Old 04-17-2013, 11:13 AM
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What I have found with the i1 Pro 2 is that while it does not require frequent re-initialization, the low stimulus brightness is drifting quite a bit from the moment is it calibrated till after a couple of minutes.

For example, measuring the display of my HTC One,
  • The 0% reading is 0.43cd/m² immediately after calibration but it increases up to 0.55cd/m2 after 3 min and 0.60cd/m² after 5 min and 0.63cd/m² after 10 min.
  • White starts at 446.7cd/m², then moved up to 447.6 cd/m² after 5 minutes, when it suddenly drops down to 445.5cd/m2 and seems to stabilize at 445.8 cd/m² after 10 min
  • White temperature starts at 7100K and end at 7,190K after 10 min.

If I calibrate the device when it is warmer (after 10 min), then the drift becomes negligible.
  • The 0% reading is 0.43cd/m² reading still reads 0.43cd/m² after 10 min.
  • White also remains constant
  • White temperature drifts only marginally (+20K)

If I recalibrate further along the line (after 30 min of continuous use), temperature continues to drift by 10K within 10 min. Overall the min has been 7100K and max 7230K with 80% of this fluctuation already accounted for after 10 minutes of use.

At first I was alarmed by the significant brightness drift at 0% stimulus, but this was because the i1 Pro 2 had to get warmer, so the initial calibration looses its accuracy there pretty quickly. Once the warming up threshold has been reached, the meter initialization holds much better.

Usually only color temperature and brightness are affected by time in operation. Gamut for primaries is usually stable. Note that the temperature drift after re-initialization are probably overestimated in my analysis due to running continuous measures every couple of seconds. Assuming you have a less intensive use with regular inactive time, I expect this drift to be more moderate. Recognizing this is important before any colorimeter profiling is attempted because the white reference is affected.

Has anyone made similar experiences with the I1 Pro 2 or i1 Pro?

Overall it is slightly disappointing that you are not exactly sure where along the line the right color temperature is being measured. Because of the rash drifting in the first few minutes, I have to assume that the more settled readings are the correct ones, since they do not drift as much. But I can't be 100% sure.

50K color temperature is not that important but 130K is not negligible. I wish x-Rite would give recommendations as to which measurement is certified? After how many minutes of operation??

As a comparison, my I1 Display Pro only drifts by 30K.
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post #139 of 149 Old 04-17-2013, 02:12 PM
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As the temperature increases the noise to signal ratio also increases.
This is normal for all spectro devices.

Dark readings more or less compensate for the raised noise floor, jeti's 1201/1211 perform a dark reading prior to every reading. The super high level spectros have sensor cooling to stabilise the noise and keep it low as possible.
For the i1pro1/2 the fact that it drifts until warmed is not really a large issue, once the temps have settled the readings stay fairly consistant. Calibration is never done in 10 minutes.
Even $50,000 spectros need to be warmed up, I have a bench top spectro like this sitting behind me and you can't rely on measurements for atleast half an hour.

The other problem you have is expecting to read anything at 0 stimulas, do you know how hard it is to read nothing!

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post #140 of 149 Old 04-17-2013, 04:28 PM
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0% stimulus is still 0.43cd/m² on my extremely bright HTC One smartphone.

You have reassured me that my unit's behaviour is normal. But this shows another advantage of using a Colorimeter. Once profiled, it can be used immediately starting from its cold state.
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post #141 of 149 Old 04-17-2013, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puremind View Post

0% stimulus is still 0.43cd/m² on my extremely bright HTC One smartphone.

You have reassured me that my unit's behaviour is normal. But this shows another advantage of using a Colorimeter. Once profiled, it can be used immediately starting from its cold state.

Not true at all.

The sensors on a colorimeter are just as sensitive to heat.

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post #142 of 149 Old 04-17-2013, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puremind View Post

0% stimulus is still 0.43cd/m² on my extremely bright HTC One smartphone.

You have reassured me that my unit's behaviour is normal. But this shows another advantage of using a Colorimeter. Once profiled, it can be used immediately starting from its cold state.

But since you don't have to initialize them, it is less of an inconvenience...You profile them once and then the drift is minimum (in my testing within 30K). With the i1 Pro2 you first need to reach the temperature threshold before initializing or the drift is bigger.
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post #143 of 149 Old 09-20-2013, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post


For illuminant readings yes but how often do you use illuminant readings in HT? Yes CalMAN does support the i1Pro and i1Pro 2 in illuminant mode but that is mostly used in print and textiles. I guess you could use illuminant mode on a FP screen surface to measure it's properties?


One advantage of the new illuminant design is how they now perform the auto sensor shift calibration on the white cal base plate during a dark cal offset. How a spectro works is you split the incoming light into multiple beams usually 40-400 parts. Those beams of light are focused on a array of sensors and where each beam of light hits the sensors element determines it’s nanometer value 380-780Nm. This is the mechanical alignment part of calibrating a spectro. In the lab it is done by a known very narrow band light source. So for instance on the i1Pro let’s say 390-400Nm is hitting sensor elements 4-6 that calibration is done at the factory. Now with its built in illuminants the i1Pro 2 does this in the field and is done each time CalMAN does a dark calibration offset, to ensure you get the most accurate calibration each time you use the i1Pro 2. This is also one of the reasons the i1Pro 2 can go much longer between dark cal’s up to several hours now.


Dredging this up for discussion.

Since the "array of sensors" is looking for the green light for the dark reading to key onto, is there any concern about changing the orientation of the i1pro2 from a horizontal during dark cal offset to turning it to vertical for reading off of your display/screen ????

Do all software companies use the same input from the i1pro2 to describe the color points???? For instance, software company A uses one reading for blue while company B uses a slightly different reading for blue ????

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post #144 of 149 Old 09-20-2013, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post


For illuminant readings yes but how often do you use illuminant readings in HT? Yes CalMAN does support the i1Pro and i1Pro 2 in illuminant mode but that is mostly used in print and textiles. I guess you could use illuminant mode on a FP screen surface to measure it's properties?


One advantage of the new illuminant design is how they now perform the auto sensor shift calibration on the white cal base plate during a dark cal offset. How a spectro works is you split the incoming light into multiple beams usually 40-400 parts. Those beams of light are focused on a array of sensors and where each beam of light hits the sensors element determines it’s nanometer value 380-780Nm. This is the mechanical alignment part of calibrating a spectro. In the lab it is done by a known very narrow band light source. So for instance on the i1Pro let’s say 390-400Nm is hitting sensor elements 4-6 that calibration is done at the factory. Now with its built in illuminants the i1Pro 2 does this in the field and is done each time CalMAN does a dark calibration offset, to ensure you get the most accurate calibration each time you use the i1Pro 2. This is also one of the reasons the i1Pro 2 can go much longer between dark cal’s up to several hours now.


Dredging this up for discussion.

Since the "array of sensors" is looking for the green light for the dark reading to key onto, is there any concern about changing the orientation of the i1pro2 from a horizontal during dark cal offset to turning it to vertical for reading off of your display/screen ????

Do all software companies use the same input from the i1pro2 to describe the color points???? For instance, software company A uses one reading for blue while company B uses a slightly different reading for blue ????

These functions are part of SDK that X-Rite is providing to meter supporting software companies, there's no control over this dark reading method that is fixed from xrite, the software only sends a command to the meter to perform that.

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post #145 of 149 Old 09-20-2013, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Dredging this up for discussion.

Since the "array of sensors" is looking for the green light for the dark reading to key onto, is there any concern about changing the orientation of the i1pro2 from a horizontal during dark cal offset to turning it to vertical for reading off of your display/screen ????

Do all software companies use the same input from the i1pro2 to describe the color points???? For instance, software company A uses one reading for blue while company B uses a slightly different reading for blue ????

Also no worries about orientation. The diffraction grating is responsible for splitting and orientating the light.

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post #146 of 149 Old 09-21-2013, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Dredging this up for discussion.

Since the "array of sensors" is looking for the green light for the dark reading to key onto, is there any concern about changing the orientation of the i1pro2 from a horizontal during dark cal offset to turning it to vertical for reading off of your display/screen ????

Do all software companies use the same input from the i1pro2 to describe the color points???? For instance, software company A uses one reading for blue while company B uses a slightly different reading for blue ????

Are you concerned about polarization errors? Take a look at the first pic in post #125. I have feeling the way the fiber optic cable is wound between the optical and spectro blocks is to minimize (randomize?) polarization issues. Just a wild guess!
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post #147 of 149 Old 09-22-2013, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by subraman View Post

Are you concerned about polarization errors? Take a look at the first pic in post #125. I have feeling the way the fiber optic cable is wound between the optical and spectro blocks is to minimize (randomize?) polarization issues. Just a wild guess!

My concern is about anything that we might be overlooking in how we calibrate displays whether it i1pro2 orientation or bits of information that most DIY calibrators aren't privileged to know regarding equipment or software.

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
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post #148 of 149 Old 09-22-2013, 09:40 PM
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In Science, if you aren't feeling stupid because you don't know something you aren't pushing into the unknown enough.

One of the fundimentals of science is error, there is always error, which for many is difficult to deal with since those people can't live without absolutes.

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post #149 of 149 Old 09-22-2013, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

My concern is about anything that we might be overlooking in how we calibrate displays whether it i1pro2 orientation or bits of information that most DIY calibrators aren't privileged to know regarding equipment or software.

Try it and find out.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
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