About to order new meter, couple Q's... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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About to place order for new meter, considering i1D3 (display pro) or C6 (both with CalMan package).

Is there any real world advantage to have the X-rite software along with CalMan?

Is there a significant enough difference in performance from the display pro to the C6 to justify more than double the price?

If the difference is measurable what are we talking about (

What are the true advantages of the C6 for an avid enthusiast/videophile with years of calibration experience that will not only be doing his own displays but possibly friends/family (but not looking to make it a career)?

I am not that concerned with the low level read speed (pro vs c6), precision / accuracy / consistency are my main concerns (as well as the life span of the meter).

Thank You,
Jason
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post #2 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 06:03 PM
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as I understand it,
the OEM x-rite D3 does not have the "profile" tables that the
C6 has.
The intended action is to have the meter not need to be profiled from a "reference" meter.
The tables are supposed to apply offsets of xyY for the different types of flat panel tech. The "offsets" are added to the meter by the software writers. They have tested the different types of TVs and created the "profile tables for each type TV".

Loving D65
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post #3 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

About to place order for new meter, considering i1D3 (display pro) or C6 (both with CalMan package).

Is there any real world advantage to have the X-rite software along with CalMan?

Is there a significant enough difference in performance from the display pro to the C6 to justify more than double the price?

If the difference is measurable what are we talking about (

What are the true advantages of the C6 for an avid enthusiast/videophile with years of calibration experience that will not only be doing his own displays but possibly friends/family (but not looking to make it a career)?

I am not that concerned with the low level read speed (pro vs c6), precision / accuracy / consistency are my main concerns (as well as the life span of the meter).

Thank You,
Jason

the C6 has some features beyond just enhanced calibration tables:

-auto exposure time

-up to 20 samples per reading (1, 3, 5, 10, or 20 are the available choices)

-auto sync to display's refresh rate

-low light handler (is adjustable, low trigger and number of samples: 1, 3, 5, 10, or 20)


The D3 only takes one sample per reading and exposure time can be manually set at 1, 2, 3, 4 seconds per reading (there could be some new additions but that was all that was there when I owned a D3).
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post #4 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

About to place order for new meter, considering i1D3 (display pro) or C6 (both with CalMan package).


What are the true advantages of the C6 for an avid enthusiast/videophile with years of calibration experience that will not only be doing his own displays but possibly friends/family (but not looking to make it a career)?

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't - http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/01/do-cali...-stim-devices/

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post #5 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 07:48 PM
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What we do is a little more complicated than xyY offsets, it's actually spectral based, which makes the correction uniform across the gamut.

Low-light sensitivity between the two is similar.

The C6 has adaptive exposures which primarily helps with speed.

Joel Barsotti
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post #6 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't - http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/01/do-cali...-stim-devices/

There are a couple things in play there.

Since that article came out we've added a white gamut white LED table, that improves performance on the displays mentioned in the article. The other issue that isn't brought up in the article is field of view. Pixel structure and the dead area between pixels can become an issue, and also just the uniformity of the display. If you want the numbers to line up, like they do in our lab when we NIST certify the meters, you have to be precise with field of view.


Some one could come out with a new light engine that produced a new unique spectrum and it could really throw off the meter. The nice thing about the C6 is we are constantly adding new profiles to address this exact issue.

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post #7 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 08:08 PM
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I went with the C6. By itself it does a good job, pick up an i1pro used so you can profile it and it does a better job. I figured it this way initially, the tables were not perfect, but the results for my own purpose were outstanding with just the table. I have CRT DLP and CCFL no LED.
The C6 is very good in low light and with the tweaks that have been mentioned is a very respectable meter. I have never used a D3 but the insides should be the same. Minus the Spectrcal modification, a D3 paired with a used i1pro would probably be the least expensive and most accurate and flexible way to go. Please note there are 2 license to buy in this case the tristim and spectro which does drive up the cost..
If you are sure you only want one tristim, then I would go with the C6 since you are using Calman, the C6 will get attention for issues before the D3. Any and all issues I had were addressed promptly.

Good luck on your choice
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post #8 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 08:54 PM
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Something to remember about going the profiling route as a home user is the colormunki Photo and Design are both spectro based on the i1 Pro. Not quite same specs, but very close.

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post #9 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the feedback guys, truly appreciated!

So if each (i1Dpro & C6) meter will basically last the same amount of time due to basically the same internals what is a reasonable expectation (2 years, 3 years, 4+)? If they are both only going to last 2-3 years of actually being precise it becomes harder to justify the C6 investment (especially considering they will probably yield near identical results). Is my logic skewed here or does it make sense?

I realize this is a catch 22 question in that nobody will want to say simply 'Yes, the C6 is more accurate' for fear of displacing trust in the Dpro but I for one would like to know if it is indeed more accurate (real world, not just on paper) will anything other than a Minolta be able to measure the difference?

Where is the biggest advantage of the C6 likely to be seen, if it's read speed I can say that I am not bothered with that one as I am sure the Dpro is fast enough for an enthusiast that's not locked into a specific time table for calibration (as an ISF tech would be).

Oh and nobody mentioned the X-rite software (with the retail package) being of any use so I would guess it's nothing to bother with?

I know some of you are probably getting irritated about now but I am trying to justify the C6 not only to myself but my wife as well, and as many of you know a 'double the cost' of the next best item can be a tough sell.

Thanks again, your time is truly appreciated!

Regards,
Jason
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post #10 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 09:08 PM
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The hard thing to demo is "real world difference".

On a standard CCFL LED that the D3 has support for, you'll likely see nearly identical results between the two meters. On a white LED completely different story. We add a bunch of projector lamp tables and LED tables, custom plasma tables, ect....

So on the right display a D3 and a C6's accuracy will be nearly identical, but on another device they could be very different.

As to duration of the meter, they haven't been around long enough to really know long term if they'll start drifting at 3 years, or 8 years. Everything about their design suggests they should last longer than a i1 Display 2 or Chroma 5 meter.

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post #11 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

There are a couple things in play there.

Since that article came out we've added a white gamut white LED table, that improves performance on the displays mentioned in the article. The other issue that isn't brought up in the article is field of view. Pixel structure and the dead area between pixels can become an issue, and also just the uniformity of the display. If you want the numbers to line up, like they do in our lab when we NIST certify the meters, you have to be precise with field of view.


Some one could come out with a new light engine that produced a new unique spectrum and it could really throw off the meter. The nice thing about the C6 is we are constantly adding new profiles to address this exact issue.

do you mean wide gamut white LED? not sure since the displays in that article appear to have standard gamuts

also, given the issue of FOV, what distance should the meter be from the display for best results (when used alone without spectro)? in contact or a specific distance away from the screen?
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post #12 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The hard thing to demo is "real world difference".

On a standard CCFL LED that the D3 has support for, you'll likely see nearly identical results between the two meters. On a white LED completely different story. We add a bunch of projector lamp tables and LED tables, custom plasma tables, ect....

So on the right display a D3 and a C6's accuracy will be nearly identical, but on another device they could be very different.

As to duration of the meter, they haven't been around long enough to really know long term if they'll start drifting at 3 years, or 8 years. Everything about their design suggests they should last longer than a i1 Display 2 or Chroma 5 meter.

Thank you Joel, that is exactly the type of response I was looking for!

I happen to own practically every display tech other than lcos and I do have a white led-lcd display (is this not what most LED-lcd sets are.. white led and not RGB led?).

Will be ordering the new meter with Loel tomorrow.


* Just wanted to note that the Spyder 4/C1 also has White and RGB LED tables (for others considering a new meter package from Spectracal).

Thanks again!!!
Jason
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post #13 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

do you mean wide gamut white LED? not sure since the displays in that article appear to have standard gamuts

also, given the issue of FOV, what distance should the meter be from the display for best results (when used alone with spectro)? in contact or a specific distance away from the screen?

yes wide gamut white LED, sorry for the typo.

This is the best info I can point you to on view angle.
http://store.spectracal.com/article-...e-is-important

Joel Barsotti
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post #14 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

yes wide gamut white LED, sorry for the typo.

This is the best info I can point you to on view angle.
http://store.spectracal.com/article-...e-is-important

Funny how you have the CTO and chief architect of CalMAN 4/5 on the forums at 10:30 at night

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post #15 of 31 Old 04-10-2012, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Indeed and please know that the excellent support is very much appreciated!

Jason
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post #16 of 31 Old 04-11-2012, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

yes wide gamut white LED, sorry for the typo.

This is the best info I can point you to on view angle.
http://store.spectracal.com/article-...e-is-important

I'm a bit confused. The article says:

"A meter’s viewing angle is not really something we need to be concerned about when dealing with transmissive illuminate displays, like flat screen TVs, since the meter is typically either in direct contact with the screen or very near it."

So, if FOV doesn't matter with flat-panel displays, what about the statement you made earlier about why Michael's comparison between the C6 and Jeti didn't line up as it should have?

Also, you mentioned the wide gamut white LED table was created to help minimize the differences revealed in that comparison, but looking the data the gamuts don't appear to be wide on those tested displays.
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post #17 of 31 Old 04-11-2012, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I'm a bit confused. The article says:

"A meter's viewing angle is not really something we need to be concerned about when dealing with transmissive illuminate displays, like flat screen TVs, since the meter is typically either in direct contact with the screen or very near it."

So, if FOV doesn't matter with flat-panel displays, what about the statement you made earlier about why Michael's comparison between the C6 and Jeti didn't line up as it should have?

FOV and viewing angle are two different parameters.
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post #18 of 31 Old 04-11-2012, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
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FOV and viewing angle are two different parameters.

Yeah, but I asked about FOV and received a link to that article.
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post #19 of 31 Old 04-11-2012, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I'm a bit confused. The article says:

"A meter’s viewing angle is not really something we need to be concerned about when dealing with transmissive illuminate displays, like flat screen TVs, since the meter is typically either in direct contact with the screen or very near it."

The wording may be a bit confusing, but if you look at what it's telling you, it's all about field of view of the meter. Looking at that chart you can see how field of view could be really different between a jeti and a C6.


Wide gamut white LED, doesn't mean wide compared to Rec.709, it means wide compared to the very under saturated typical white LED.

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post #20 of 31 Old 04-11-2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The wording may be a bit confusing, but if you look at what it's telling you, it's all about field of view of the meter. Looking at that chart you can see how field of view could be really different between a jeti and a C6.


Wide gamut white LED, doesn't mean wide compared to Rec.709, it means wide compared to the very under saturated typical white LED.

Ok, that makes more sense regarding FOV.

Are you saying that most White LED displays have smaller gamuts compared to standard CCFL displays? So, Wide Gamut CCFL and Wide Gamut White LED have different sized gamuts, with the Wide Gamut CCFL having a wider than Rec. 709 gamut?
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post #21 of 31 Old 04-11-2012, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick Q...

Worthwhile advantage going with a Colormunki spectro + i1D3 versus just the C6 alone?

Thanks,
Jason
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post #22 of 31 Old 04-11-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Quick Q...

Worthwhile advantage going with a Colormunki spectro + i1D3 versus just the C6 alone?

Thanks,
Jason

yes, it will be more accurate and work for any display type (though might be pricier than just a C6)
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post #23 of 31 Old 04-11-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The wording may be a bit confusing, but if you look at what it's telling you, it's all about field of view of the meter. Looking at that chart you can see how field of view could be really different between a jeti and a C6.


Wide gamut white LED, doesn't mean wide compared to Rec.709, it means wide compared to the very under saturated typical white LED.


This brings me back to my original question about using the C6 alone (tables only, no spectro to profile it with). In order to get the most out of the enhanced tables of the C6, how far should my meter be from the screen of a LCD/Plasma flat-panel? How far is the C6 from the screen in the lab when the tables are created?
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post #24 of 31 Old 04-11-2012, 04:46 PM
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When we do our nist certs, we have the C6 in contact mode, but the CS-2000 is pulled back 40" or so to get the same FOV as the C6 in contact mode.

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post #25 of 31 Old 04-11-2012, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

When we do our nist certs, we have the C6 in contact mode, but the CS-2000 is pulled back 40" or so to get the same FOV as the C6 in contact mode.

Good to know, this answers my question. I already have been using mine in contact mode since it's the easiest setup and minimizes ambient light.

However, does this meter have temperature compensation? I noticed that it reads peak white a couple of fL higher on warmer days versus cooler days (my room temperature can vary between 68 and 76). I do warm-up the meter and display together for at least 1 hour before calibrating and often the TV has been running for many hours beforehand.

And if one was using an i1 Pro to profile the C6 with, how far back should that be?
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post #26 of 31 Old 04-12-2012, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok placed my order and have a couple quick Q's (hate to keep pestering Loel at Spectracal sales).

Can I use my CalMan key on my laptop and a couple desktops at the same time? Just went ahead and tried it with no obvious issues, so I guess it's ok.

Is there a limit to number of pc's/installs active at once? I have it running on 3 pc's at the moment so if there is a limit it must be more than 3 (???).

I have an HTPC in my main HT, a gaming desktop pc in my media room and of course want to use the laptop (mobile) for other displays in the house as well as friends/family.


* Oh, and does the CalMan software offer internal test patterns?


** Will I have any issues with using CalMan on a 1280x800 native screen? I ask because I have some spacing issues with HCFR on that same screen (laptop). It all seems to fit with no spacing issues, just a bit cramped.


Thanks again!
Jason
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post #27 of 31 Old 04-13-2012, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
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One more Q

If I buy the spectro add-on for CalMan can I use this... Gretag Macbeth EYE ONE PRO?

Thank You,
Jason
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post #28 of 31 Old 04-13-2012, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

One more Q

If I buy the spectro add-on for CalMan can I use this... Gretag Macbeth EYE ONE PRO?

Thank You,
Jason

Yes, All revisions A to D are supported with that add-on.

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post #29 of 31 Old 04-13-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Can I use my CalMan key on my laptop and a couple desktops at the same time? Just went ahead and tried it with no obvious issues, so I guess it's ok.

Yes as long as they are yours and only one person at a time is using CalMAN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Is there a limit to number of pc's/installs active at once? I have it running on 3 pc's at the moment so if there is a limit it must be more than 3 (???).

No limit for active install see above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

* Oh, and does the CalMan software offer internal test patterns?

Yes if you bring out the inbedded pattern window from the left hand panel tools.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

** Will I have any issues with using CalMan on a 1280x800 native screen? I ask because I have some spacing issues with HCFR on that same screen (laptop). It all seems to fit with no spacing issues, just a bit cramped.

CalMAN is designed to run on a netbooks so screens as small as 1024x600.

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post #30 of 31 Old 04-13-2012, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
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One more Q

If I buy the spectro add-on for CalMan can I use this... Gretag Macbeth EYE ONE PRO?

Thank You,
Jason

Yes with the Spectro add-on you get support for all versions of the i1Pro including the just released i1Pro 2 Rev E and ColorMunki's.

Derek

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