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post #61 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 07:42 AM
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So in that case then I suppose "black compensation" wouldn't work with the I1pro units as from what I understand they aren't very useful below 20ire, is this a correct assumption?

Walter
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post #62 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post

So in that case then I suppose "black compensation" wouldn't work with the I1pro units as from what I understand they aren't very useful below 20ire, is this a correct assumption?

yes
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post #63 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 11:20 AM
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Thanks for the info. DOes the Black Compensation work with the less expensive I1 probes?

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post #64 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post

Thanks for the info. DOes the Black Compensation work with the less expensive I1 probes?

It "works" with any meter, the question is how dark is your displays black level and what is the threshold for your meter.

The i1 Display meters are colorimeters so they have capability to read lower light than the i1 Pro or Colormunki.

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post #65 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It "works" with any meter, the question is how dark is your displays black level and what is the threshold for your meter.

The i1 Display meters are colorimeters so they have capability to read lower light than the i1 Pro or Colormunki.

Sotti, maybe a full description of when to use this and how would in order.
Thanks!
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post #66 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Sotti, maybe a full description of when to use this and how would in order.
Thanks!

In my opinion, I'd always use this (4.6.2 just went live, and we seem to have shaken the last bugs out).

There isn't to much to the how, once it's checked, CalMAN adjusts all the luminance targets to reflect adding the black level in as a base for it's targert calculations.

The only time I wouldn't use this is if there was a black level that was obviously below the threshold of the meter.

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post #67 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

In my opinion, I'd always use this (4.6.2 just went live, and we seem to have shaken the last bugs out).

There isn't to much to the how, once it's checked, CalMAN adjusts all the luminance targets to reflect adding the black level in as a base for it's targert calculations.

The only time I wouldn't use this is if there was a black level that was obviously below the threshold of the meter.

what is the threshold on the D3/C6?
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post #68 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

In my opinion, I'd always use this (4.6.2 just went live, and we seem to have shaken the last bugs out).

There isn't to much to the how, once it's checked, CalMAN adjusts all the luminance targets to reflect adding the black level in as a base for it's targert calculations.

The only time I wouldn't use this is if there was a black level that was obviously below the threshold of the meter.

How about when you don't take a 0 reading.. would it still work correctly?
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post #69 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

How about when you don't take a 0 reading.. would it still work correctly?

it can't, you need a value for 0% for it to work... you can't compensate for the black level if you don't know what it is

otherwise, you should just set grayscale datapoints to 10% to 100% or 20% to 100% and not use the feature
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post #70 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

it can't, you need a value for 0% for it to work... you can't compensate for the black level if you don't know what it is

otherwise, you should just set grayscale datapoints to 10% to 100% or 20% to 100% and not use the feature

That is what I thought, just wanted to make sure...
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post #71 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

In my opinion, I'd always use this (4.6.2 just went live, and we seem to have shaken the last bugs out).

There isn't to much to the how, once it's checked, CalMAN adjusts all the luminance targets to reflect adding the black level in as a base for it's targert calculations.

The only time I wouldn't use this is if there was a black level that was obviously below the threshold of the meter.

Joel,

Just grabbed 4.6.2 from the website and it would be great if once logged in to the site we didn't have to submit our info again in order to download the software (of course then the generalized e-mails follow even though we already own the product).


I have not been using BLC with CalMan as of yet but I'll try it on the new version.

Thanks,
Jason
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post #72 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

it would be great if once logged in to the site we didn't have to submit our info again in order to download the software (of course then the generalized e-mails follow even though we already own the product).

You're telling me. I usually just dummy up some a@b.com email address.

Joel Barsotti
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post #73 of 93 Old 05-09-2012, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Haha, Derek you paying attention.

Jason
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post #74 of 93 Old 05-10-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Haha, Derek you paying attention.

Jason

Yes always, as Joel can attest we are in the process of revamping the website to coincide with the release of CalMAN 5.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
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post #75 of 93 Old 05-10-2012, 01:05 PM
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When will the CALMAN 5?
At least approximately?
Already can not wait!
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post #76 of 93 Old 05-10-2012, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

When will the CALMAN 5?
At least approximately?
Already can not wait!

We really don't like to talk about futures. But I can say once it is in open beta we will know more on when the official release will be. Once it is in open beta then anyone with a CalMAN 5 or recent CalMAN 4 license will be able to use it. We have been working on the CalMAN 5 core for almost two years now, so once it is out I will guarantee it was worth the wait.

Derek

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post #77 of 93 Old 05-10-2012, 02:18 PM
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Absolutely no doubt!
I will wait as long as necessary!
Best regards, Andrei.
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post #78 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

We really don't like to talk about futures. But I can say once it is in open beta we will know more on when the official release will be. Once it is in open beta then anyone with a CalMAN 5 or recent CalMAN 4 license will be able to use it. We have been working on the CalMAN 5 core for almost two years now, so once it is out I will guarantee it was worth the wait.

Hi Derek. What qualifies as recent?

Once CalMAN 5 is released, will everyone who has current support be able to upgrade? I thought this was the case, which is why I went ahead and purchased CalMAN recently rather than waiting for 5 to come out. I'll be a little bummed if I misunderstood the licensing terms.
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post #79 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 11:15 PM
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Hi Derek. What qualifies as recent?

Once CalMAN 5 is released, will everyone who has current support be able to upgrade? I thought this was the case, which is why I went ahead and purchased CalMAN recently rather than waiting for 5 to come out. I'll be a little bummed if I misunderstood the licensing terms.

Recent is within the last year or under maintenance.

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post #80 of 93 Old 05-13-2012, 02:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes always, as Joel can attest we are in the process of revamping the website to coincide with the release of CalMAN 5.



Jason
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post #81 of 93 Old 05-20-2012, 10:47 AM
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Jason, All your issues resolved? I have also had these similar experiences. Thanks, Doug G.
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post #82 of 93 Old 05-20-2012, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Doug,

Yes everything seems to be good now, using the latest release (4.6.2) and following what Joel & Derek have stated in this thread.

I was having some repeatability issues with an i1D3 so I had it replaced and the new one gives the same basic readings from one day to the next (which was probably contributing to some of my issues).

Jason
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post #83 of 93 Old 05-21-2012, 02:02 PM
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Jason, Good to know! I have a big calibration weekend comming up. Took note of all the advice given and am looking forward nailing down a DLP rear projection set as well as a few projectors. Thanks for your questions and ALL the responses! Doug G.
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post #84 of 93 Old 05-22-2012, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Well new issues, not sure what's going on now.

Reads are bouncing all over the place on any color with i1Pro/i1D3 CalMan 4.6.2 when doing Panasonic AE4000 projector (figured it might be the HiPower screen so tried pointed at PJ with diffuser but makes no difference). Sometimes the reads will come in quick succession and then it will slow to a crawl and take 15 seconds to get a single read.

Also noticed the i1D3 will not allow me to use the diffuser when pointed at the PJ, it throws an error and says it cannot be used.

Reads from the screen with i1D3 shows almost no movement when making adjustments.

Never seen anything like this...

Jason
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post #85 of 93 Old 05-22-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Well new issues, not sure what's going on now.

Reads are bouncing all over the place on any color with i1Pro/i1D3 CalMan 4.6.2 when doing Panasonic AE4000 projector (figured it might be the HiPower screen so tried pointed at PJ with diffuser but makes no difference). Sometimes the reads will come in quick succession and then it will slow to a crawl and take 15 seconds to get a single read.

Also noticed the i1D3 will not allow me to use the diffuser when pointed at the PJ, it throws an error and says it cannot be used.

Reads from the screen with i1D3 shows almost no movement when making adjustments.

Never seen anything like this...

Jason

You sure you are not using the simulated meter?
If you disconnected either meter from a running instance of Calman you need to close and reopen calman. Probably not the issue but it has happened to me in the past.

If closing calman, reopening, searching for meters and then you get the same thing, post in on the spectracal site.

One other question, how long is the USB cable you are using..

To help spectracal trouble shoot this, put up a pattern that is causing the most problem, then go to the precal screen and hit the auto read button. This will take all the reading at the one stimulus so they can compare how they are bouncing around.

If you need an older release to try, I have most of them and can post whatever version you want to try.

any chance it is the lamp flickering just to fast for you to see? Try high lamp if you have not tried it yet..
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post #86 of 93 Old 05-23-2012, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input Doug, could be the (1600 hour) lamp as I was in eco and did not try normal.

Was not the simulated and no meter disconnect issues, CalMan finds both meters right away with no search required, the USB cable is 10' and running through a powered hub which I have verified passes all i1 Diagnostics.


* Have another oddity now, Gamma reads are different at Gamma screen vs opening a Gamma box in Grayscale screen (using Datagrid for exact numbers). Have flat 2.2 at Gamma screen and reads on Grayscale screen are drastically different (this is with corrected i1D3).

Would be great if we could pick points and do continuous read on the Gamma screen.

Will having the Argyll meter drivers, for use with HCFR, present mess with CalMan or does CalMan load the proper driver regardless of what else is present?

Thanks again!
Jason
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post #87 of 93 Old 05-23-2012, 05:00 PM
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There is a bouncy issue with the C6/D3 at 90 or 100 it can be as little as 1% and this will make you gamma change. The Gamma curve is just a calculation so if the reading at 90 and 100 are not exactly the same each time the curve will change. Calman was changed for the C6 to allow may more samples to be chosen, I think it is now up to 20 on the meter samples. This helped to remove that bounce. Before this change the work around was to set the LLH to say 200 and the LLH samples to it's highest amount which was something like 10. I don't have the program up so can not look. What you would do is stop at 80 switch the light level of the LLH to 200 from .5 and then do the rest of the the gamma, faking it out so it used the higher sample per read of the LLH. Check the meter setup screen and adjust the number of samples to the highest level and redo the top end of the gamma. Hope that make sense, this info is in the C6 unstable reading thread at the spectracal site. I think there was one similar for the D3.
Send me a PM with your phone number if you don't understand what I am trying to convey and I will explain.
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post #88 of 93 Old 05-23-2012, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Doug,

I understand, Low handler. I'll give that a shot if I run into that issue but my issue was with 75% color reads and the bounce was DRASTIC, it would range from dE 5 to dE 100+ and everywhere in between (this was with the i1Pro). It was crazy to watch, have not tried to reproduce it yet but will get back in there tonight.

Thanks again,
Jason
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post #89 of 93 Old 05-23-2012, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Doug,

I understand, Low handler. I'll give that a shot if I run into that issue but my issue was with 75% color reads and the bounce was DRASTIC, it would range from dE 5 to dE 100+ and everywhere in between (this was with the i1Pro). It was crazy to watch, have not tried to reproduce it yet but will get back in there tonight.

Thanks again,
Jason

Ah.. sorry, that does really sound weird.
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post #90 of 93 Old 05-23-2012, 07:18 PM
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My error still stands, I've tried 100 different things, about to email SpectraCal again to try to get meter replaced. I am not an all-out expert at calibration, but I am a programmer, so debugging isn't something I'm not used to doing. Maybe I missed something, but starting to doubt it.

My gray-scale reads on the RGB's could vary by as much a 40% at times. One simple way to test this I am guessing is just use a 50 IRE pattern, and have the C6 read it continously and automatically as if it were 10-100 IRE (even though it is only 50 IRE). Then look at the graphs over time after doing several reads. There are many ways to test, that is just one simple way. The reason I refer to this test, is because it requires making no changes away from defaults in the program (and you can mess with auto-synch or whatever without messing with other stuff), and you are introducing no extra variables and can easily see the variation in RGB reads at the same IRE from one read to the next. Most of the time I can keep the error under 10% (or even less), but the fact it EVER shoots off so much in a given hour of measuring is a big warning sign. I have done it on 3 different devices, in 2 rooms, on different screens, with different laptops, with different versions of the software, and in different combinations of settings.

If I set the meter to take 20 samples that would reduce the error, but that's not a good thing (not to mention how slow it is to take that many samples). The problem with this method is whenever you average error out that drastically, it would make any single giant reading less visible in the overall average, but it doesn't answer the question as to why those giant errors sometimes exist in a read based on a 3 or 5 sample read. On the first full 10 reads, I could get some repeatability success at times, but then it often varies. If it were normal for meters to read like this, then I'd say ok. Sure some repeatability variance is expected, but this looks to be too much.


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