Massive Color Drift Correction for i1 Display Colorimeter - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I recently tried measuring both a new Westinghouse VR-3730 LCD HDTV and my older Panasonic 42PZ85 plasma HDTV. I used my i1 Display LT colorimeter with HCFR software, only to find a large RED color shift. The subective PQ looks OK but the i1 is reading RED at about 50-60% lower than what I would be expecting.

I directly compared an older data file of my Panasonic TV with a new one at the same TV settings. The luminance and gamma charts are quite similar but the RGB levels, color temperature and CIE diagrams are different or shifted, especially WRT red values.

Is this magnitude of drift error that others have experienced with i1Display colorimeters? Or is there something else that is the problem?

Can HCFR software null this error out? Is this feature within it's capabilities?
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post #2 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 08:05 AM
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It's very common for the i1 Display 2/LT to have this issue.

The only way to correct it is with a profile matrix, and the only way to generate a matrix is with a meter that is more accurate.

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post #3 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 09:42 AM
 
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I've had similar experiences. You spend hundreds of dollars in hopes of getting settings you just KNOW are accurate and find out the product drifts.

I had an i1 D2 meter and got rid of it , but it wasn't 50% off yet. However, that seems to be a problem with many hobbyist level colorimeters and one reason I won;t be purchasing any more after trying both Spyder3 and then the D2.

Claims are made that the "latest and greatest" are not prone to drift or somehow guaranteed but I won't waste my time and money on anymore consumer or hobbyist grade meters. They will give you charts, numbers, and readings. . . but you will never know if it is really accurate.

It's a nice hobby and you can gain insight to what makes a TV picture good, but it isn't to give you the known and stable accuracy of professional mutli thousand dollar equipment. Besides, most TVs today are much better out of the box and can supply excellent picture quality using the AVS HD709, Disney WOW, or Digital Video Essentials disc to give you Media Assisted Settings.
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post #4 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 09:55 AM
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Is this issue only happen in HCFR ?
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post #5 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 10:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanti123 View Post

Is this issue only happen in HCFR ?

No. . . it's and issue with the meter itself. It's relatively low cost hobbyist grade.

Maybe they figure an owner will only use it a few times and loose interest and so the long term reliability suffers.
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post #6 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Besides, most TVs today are much better out of the box and can supply excellent picture quality

.... Until they start aging and drifting ...
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post #7 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 10:36 AM
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^^^^ then you tweak it yourself with either a disk (with or without a consumer-grade meter) or get a professional calibration...
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post #8 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:11 AM
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this issue is mainly with old meter designs that leave the filters completely exposed to the elements, much less of an issue with sealed designs like the D3/C6 and more expensive colorimeters (hubble and K-10)

also the meter must be stored properly to maximize its lifespan

http://www.spectracal.com/downloads/...olorimeter.pdf



to be honest, the level of drift the OP is experiencing seems to be more consistent with a meter that has not been stored properly

How old is it? was it purchased new and was it new stock?
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post #9 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

I've had similar experiences. You spend hundreds of dollars in hopes of getting settings you just KNOW are accurate and find out the product drifts.

I had an i1 D2 meter and got rid of it , but it wasn't 50% off yet. However, that seems to be a problem with many hobbyist level colorimeters and one reason I won;t be purchasing any more after trying both Spyder3 and then the D2.

Claims are made that the "latest and greatest" are not prone to drift or somehow guaranteed but I won't waste my time and money on anymore consumer or hobbyist grade meters. They will give you charts, numbers, and readings. . . but you will never know if it is really accurate.

It's a nice hobby and you can gain insight to what makes a TV picture good, but it isn't to give you the known and stable accuracy of professional mutli thousand dollar equipment. Besides, most TVs today are much better out of the box and can supply excellent picture quality using the AVS HD709, Disney WOW, or Digital Video Essentials disc to give you Media Assisted Settings.

I don't agree with this point of view at all. The is a meaningful middle ground between setting brightness, contrast, and sharpness with a basic setup disc like Disney WOW (and perhaps proper aspect ratio/picture size) and getting a professional calibration. If DIY calibration with meters/software was a worthless endeavor, forums like this one would not exist and the market for consumer grade calibration equipment would not either.

If you buy a entry-level colorimeter like the D2, you can't expect to get the results of something like a colormunki or i1Pro spectro but there are newer and better colorimeters like the enhanced Spyder4 and D3/D3 PRO/C6. All TVs on the market today can benefit from a full calibration, professional or DIY, and optimizing brightness, contrast, and sharpness with a setup disc can only do so much in terms of improving the picture on your new TV.
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post #10 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

No. . . it's and issue with the meter itself. It's relatively low cost hobbyist grade.

Maybe they figure an owner will only use it a few times and loose interest and so the long term reliability suffers.

again it must be stored properly for best results over time and meters with sealed optics like the D3 will fare much better in this regard
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post #11 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:26 AM
 
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My experience is not unique. Not sure what "budget level" means. Hobbyist consumer grade meters seem to all fall into the low reliability stature period. No one knows if a $500 to $1,000 hobbyist meter will remain viable. Advertised claims are just that till the next thing comes out. And I am well aware of proper storage. You can't write off wide spread reliability issues by improper storage. Besides, why should they be so touchy after spending hundreds $$$.

There is no substitute for pro grade equipment. And as I said, a hobbyist meter is alt least good for learning and using till the next greatest one come along.
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post #12 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

.... Until they start aging and drifting ...

+1, yes displays can drift over time as well, which is why having your own equipment can pay for it self over time (especially for lamp based projectors and rear projection sets)
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post #13 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

^^^^ then you tweak it yourself with either a disk (with or without a consumer-grade meter) or get a professional calibration...

I agree. Probably a best option if you can thoroughly interview the professional calibrator as to his equipment and TV brands/models he has worked on. Too many out there that have equipment, spend hours on a TV and yield mediocre results.

And +1 YES. . . . a test disc for Media Assisted Settings will not drift.

And visible errors in grayscale can be done with the proper procedure as has been done for many years.
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post #14 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

My experience is not unique. Not sure what "budget level" means. Hobbyist consumer grade meters seem to all fall into the low reliability stature period. No one know if a $500 to $1,000 hobbyist meter will remain viable. And I am well aware of proper storage. You can't write off wide spread reliability issues by improper storage. Besides, why should they be so touchy after spending hundreds $$$.

There is no substitute for pro grade equipment. And as I said, a hobbyist meter is alt least good for learning and using till the next greatest one come along.

entry-level is what I mean and spending a couple hundred on a D2 doesn't mean it will perform as well as affordable spectros or new colorimeter designs like the D3

for what it's worth, I never had significant drift issues with the D2s I owned and probably because I was very careful about how I stored them (I believe I had 2 or 3 regular D2s/LTs and one enhanced X2)

the gap between the D2 and D3 is huge in virtually every measurable way and that is why the D3 is considered to be revolutionary product... it addresses all the issues that were common with the D2

http://www.chromapure.com/newgear_display3.asp

http://store.spectracal.com/spectracal-c6-story
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post #15 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:44 AM
 
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Hmm. . . the D2 was not "entry level" when it came out. I recall no such designation.

Time will tell how reliable and stable the D3 hobbyist meter is. Advertised claims are just that till the next thing comes out. And I am well aware of proper storage. You can't write off wide spread reliability issues by improper storage. Besides, why should they be so touchy after spending hundreds $$$.


Hobbyist grade is anything under several thousand.
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post #16 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post


And visible errors in grayscale can be done with the proper procedure as has been done for many years.

and what might that be?
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post #17 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Hmm. . . the D2 was not "entry level" when it came out. I recall no such designation.

Time will tell how reliable and stable the D3 hobbyist meter is.

Hobbyist grade is anything under several thousand.

ok, then please list some meters below the D2 that offer a reasonable degree of accuracy
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post #18 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanti123 View Post

Is this issue only happen in HCFR ?

I only have HCFR to use with the meter. I have run the iDiagnostic program from X-rite. The results indicated no problem - successful output. I don't know what the specific numbers in the log mean or what the meter results were when new. I wish I would have had some foresight and saved it for comparison.
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post #19 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma54321 View Post

I only have HCFR to use with the meter. I have run the iDiagnostic program from X-rite. The results indicated no problem - successful output. I don't know what the specific numbers in the log mean or what the meter results were when new. I wish I would have had some foresight and saved it for comparison.

How old is it? was it purchased new and was it new stock?

also, how have you been storing it?


it seems at this point you may wish to buy another meter or if possible profile it against a more accurate meter like a spectro... if the meter has drifted that badly, nothing short of replacing/profiling it will work (and if it has drifted way too far, profiling may not even work)
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post #20 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

to be honest, the level of drift the OP is experiencing seems to be more consistent with a meter that has not been stored properly

How old is it? was it purchased new and was it new stock?

Well, I live in FL. So, it's humid here, even now in the winter/springtime with windows open, probably Relative Humidity of 50% or more. Even with the AC running in the summer the daytime house temperature are in the low 80's.

I kept the meter in it's original box with plastic clamshell on a bookshelf out of any direct sunlight.

This unit was puchased new on 9/2008 from JandR.com.

I keep reading about "drift" with this and other colorimeters, but I have never seen any quantifiable measurements as to what this drift is and over what time period. Further, even if stored in ideal/perfect conditions what is the stability? The manufacturer doesn't even spec the unit new, let alone over time.

I would think that if an instrument is this far off with limited use, the manufacturer should provide some method to correct or adjust the unit. If Tektronix or Fluke ever produced a meter like this they would be out of business by now. X-rite is supposed to be the leader in this field!
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post #21 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 12:39 PM
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I took my 3-year old i1Display LT and compared it to my i1Display Pro and my i1Pro recently. I've kept the i1Display LT in a sealed bag, with silica gel to keep it dry, and even with that my display was dE < 1 across the board with the new meters, and > 5 with the i1Display LT for many of the measurements. Some were closer, but many were way, way off and clearly visible had I calibrated using the LT.

All the XRite software is telling you is that the meter hardware is working correctly, not the condition of the filters at this point in its life. Since the software has no way of knowing the color or temperature that it is reading, it has no way of knowing if its reading correctly or not. You can profile it but that will require another meter to use for profiling, and likely new software. If you aren't going to do this often, the i1Display Pro with CalMan or ChromaPure is a good deal and will be far more accurate, or you can hire someone as well.

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post #22 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 12:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma54321 View Post

Well, I live in FL. So, it's humid here, even now in the winter/springtime with windows open, probably Relative Hummidiity of 50% or more. Even with the AC running in the summer the daytime house temperature are in the low 80's.

I kept the meter in it's original box with plastic clamshell on a bookshelf out of any direct sunlight.

This unit was puchased new on 9/2008 from JandR.com.

I keep reading about "drift" with this and other colorimeters, but I have never seen any quantifiable measurements as to what this drift is and over what time period. Further, even if stored in ideal/perfect conditions what is the stability? The manufacturer doesn't even spec the unit new, let alone over time.

I would think that if an instrument is this far off with limited use, the manufacturer should provide some method to correct or adjust the unit. If Tektronix or Fluke ever produced a meter like this they would be out of business by now. X-rite is supposed to be the leader in this field!


I agree. That's why these are hobbyist level meters not bonafide test equipment like Fluke or Tektronix test equipment. You can spend $500 or more on these meters and they have issues. I've spent less on some Fluke and Tektronix test equipment and have not had these issues.

Supposedly you CAN send these meters in for repair-calibration-correction, but may as well buy a new meter if yiu want to take another chance.

Unless you have a high end home theater or want to pursue hobbyist calibration, the Media Assisted Setting option using AVS HD709 Disney WOW or AVIA, etc is a good option. And grayscale can even be corrected with proper and careful procedure as has been done for years.
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post #23 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

I took my 3-year old i1Display LT and compared it to my i1Display Pro and my i1Pro recently.
... with that my display was dE < 1 across the board with the new meters, and dE> 5 with the i1Display LT for many of the measurements. Some were closer, but many were way, way off and clearly visible had I calibrated using the LT.

All the XRite software is telling you is that the meter hardware is working.

The error that you are measuring dE>5 for the i1Display LT seems reasonable. What was way off?

In my case, I have dE= 40-50 different from my prior test data. This seems to be massive. I have RGB Levels for Red going from 90% to 35% almost across the board from 20% - 100% stimulus grayscale windows. My color temperature went from 6500K to 8500K.

The iDiagnositcs Log output for my meter is:

General Information
Date and Time: 4/11/2012 7:11:53 PM

Application version: Version 2.5.1
SDK version i1: Version 3.4.0 Build 131
SDK version iO: Version 1.1.2 Build 100
SDK version iSis: Version 1.0.5 Build 70
Platform: Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition, Service Pack 2

Device Information
Device type: i1Display Lite (Version 2) [Ambient Light Emission]
Serial number: 709809

Calibration
Emission calibration: Successful

Emission Test

White measurement: Successful (X=51.271 Y=60.769 Z=44.611)
Gray measurement: Successful (X=19.916 Y=22.997 Z=25.601)
Black measurement: Successful (X=0.341 Y=0.385 Z=0.502)
Red measurement: Successful (X=25.032 Y=17.162 Z=3.337)
Green measurement: Successful (X=18.704 Y=35.144 Z=7.940)
Blue measurement: Successful (X=7.847 Y=8.817 Z=34.495)

Emission Test: Pass
*** PASS ***


So, I guess this is pretty much useless for quantifiying the drift?
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post #24 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 02:07 PM
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I'm onto my second i1 LT after my first one drifted after a year. I live in a semi tropical area so this time around I stored it in a zip locked bag with silica gel (to remove any residual humidity in the bag) and stored in a dark cool cupboard. Unfortunately after 18 months this meter has drifted as well, so I have only had good use out of these meters with the initial calibration. Luckly I purchased both meters pretty cheaply so I still got value from their one off use but its annoying that they don't last long, and even if there wasn't a visible drift you will still have nagging doubts if the meter has drifted a bit and mucked up the calibration.

I'm tossing up now between buying the new D3 or finding a good second hand i1 Pro spectro (and profiling my drifted i1 LT to it) as I have a new bulb in my projector uncalibrated.
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post #25 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma54321 View Post


So, I guess this is pretty much useless for quantifiying the drift?

Yes that doesn't say anything about the actual performance of the meter. If the meter could detect how far it was off, then it would be able to correct itself.

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post #26 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Hmm. . . the D2 was not "entry level" when it came out. I recall no such designation.

Price tag usually is what makes something "entry level", when it was introduced it was probably extremely competitive with it's contemporaries.

The issue is that the i1 Display 2 is a 6 or 7 year old design that replaced meters that were even older.

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post #27 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 03:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Price tag usually is what makes something "entry level", when it was introduced it was probably extremely competitive with it's contemporaries.

The issue is that the i1 Display 2 is a 6 or 7 year old design that replaced meters that were even older.

And surely something will come along to replace the D3. If anything, the i1 Pro spectro would be better, but it has trade offs also. So around and around we go in the hobbyist meter market.
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post #28 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

And surely something will come along to replace the D3. If anything, the i1 Pro spectro would be better, but it has trade offs also. So around and around we go in the hobbyist meter market.

The same thing could be of any market.

I'm sure digital photographers routinely disparage any camera sold for less than $500, yet millions of people take pictures and enjoy them.

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post #29 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 03:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The same thing could be of any market.

I'm sure digital photographers routinely disparage any camera sold for less than $500, yet millions of people take pictures and enjoy them.

Perhaps. But those people buying <$500 cameras don't have the need to buy a meter to look at pictures.

So what then? This excuses reliability of a meter costing $200 or more? Even the D3 seems to need profiling for "certain TVs" according to Micheal Chen. But, I guess you are saying you get what you pay for.
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post #30 of 95 Old 04-18-2012, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Perhaps. But those people buying <$500 cameras don't have the need to buy a meter to look at pictures.

So what then? This excuses reliability of a meter costing $200 or more? Even the D3 seems to need profiling for "certain TVs" according to Micheal Chen. But, I guess you are saying you get what you pay for.

Cameras may have been too closely a related field.

I was simply implying that in just about any industry the folks with access to professional gear look down their noses at the "entry level" stuff. For most people the entry level gear works just fine. Durability is typically one of the features of more professional products.

As to the question of profiling D3s, that is more of an issue with colorimeters v spectrophotometers. In that battle spectrophotometers are nearly always the more accurate choice, especially on the newer bread of display technologies.

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