S&M Clipping Test Pattern Levels - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 05-11-2012, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone have information regarding the RGB (count) levels of the 4 clipping boxes for the S&M Clipping Pattern?

It has the White/Red/Green/Blue dual nested boxes. What is the difference between the left and right halves for each color? Are they all supposed to be visible? Or is a subset sufficient?

A nice B/W outline picture with numbers would be nice. I'm surprised that S&M doesn't have it in the Help on their disc on in the print documention.
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post #2 of 30 Old 05-11-2012, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma54321 View Post

Does anyone have information regarding the RGB (count) levels of the 4 clipping boxes for the S&M Clipping Pattern?

It has the White/Red/Green/Blue dual nested boxes. What is the difference between the left and right halves for each color? Are they all supposed to be visible? Or is a subset sufficient?

A nice B/W outline picture with numbers would be nice. I'm suprised that S&M doesn't have it in the Help on their disc on in the print documention.



I made this graph for me before some years to fugure out the RGB value of each box.

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post #3 of 30 Old 05-11-2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma54321 View Post

Does anyone have information regarding the RGB (count) levels of the 4 clipping boxes for the S&M Clipping Pattern?

It has the White/Red/Green/Blue dual nested boxes. What is the difference between the left and right halves for each color? Are they all supposed to be visible? Or is a subset sufficient?

A nice B/W outline picture with numbers would be nice. I'm suprised that S&M doesn't have it in the Help on their disc on in the print documention.

I prefer the AVS pattern, RGB High Clipping since it shows levels below and above 235, letting the user decide how much WTW headroom they want.

Similarly, the contrast patterns on Disney WOW and DVE HD Basics allow you to set just a little WTW headroom if you want as opposed to going all the way up to 254 (however, these are white only).
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post #4 of 30 Old 05-11-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma54321 View Post

Does anyone have information regarding the RGB (count) levels of the 4 clipping boxes for the S&M Clipping Pattern?

It has the White/Red/Green/Blue dual nested boxes. What is the difference between the left and right halves for each color? Are they all supposed to be visible? Or is a subset sufficient?

A nice B/W outline picture with numbers would be nice. I'm suprised that S&M doesn't have it in the Help on their disc on in the print documention.

They are all suppose to be visible, and unless you have projector on an over-sized screen, there is very little reason not to follow this guideline.

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post #5 of 30 Old 05-11-2012, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I prefer the AVS pattern, RGB High Clipping since it shows levels below and above 235, letting the user decide how much WTW headroom they want.

Similarly, the contrast patterns on Disney WOW and DVE HD Basics allow you to set just a little WTW headroom if you want as opposed to going all the way up to 254 (however, these are white only).





I prefer my disk pattern, it shows levels 230 till 254 with flashing or static option, the clipping of Secondary Colours also.

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post #6 of 30 Old 05-11-2012, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post





I prefer my disk pattern, it shows levels 230 till 254 with flashing or static option, the clipping of Secondary Colours also.

If the R, G, and B channels show no clipping, can there still be clipping on the complimentary colors?

On a side note, it would be nice if such a pattern could be added to the AVS disc.
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post #7 of 30 Old 05-11-2012, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

If the R, G, and B channels show no clipping, can there still be clipping on the complimentary colors?

Yes, it can be possible, Secondaries have higher luminance.


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post #8 of 30 Old 05-11-2012, 11:24 PM
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Ted where I can get your advanced calibration disk?

Thank you very much in advance
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post #9 of 30 Old 05-11-2012, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electroFan View Post

Ted where I can get your advanced calibration disk?

Thank you very much in advance

Thank you for your interest, this Advance Calibration Disk Project is personal, i have no plans to release it, i hade it for my calibrations only, i used THX,ISF etc. logos without any permision etc.

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post #10 of 30 Old 05-12-2012, 05:36 AM
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I like chaps 83 & 85 - They could help detect screen uniformity issues.

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post #11 of 30 Old 05-12-2012, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post



I made this graph for me before some years ago to figure out the RGB values of each box.

I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the old US TV series “Raymond”, but in the words of Frank “Holy Crap!” Your response is excellent! I thought someone might have had the same question about that Test Pattern, but you took the thought about 87 times farther than I was thinking. I hope Spears & Munsil (as well as other test disc people) take note about complete documentation. Thank you! Or σας ευχαριστώ.

The reason I asked this question is that I have been trying to diagnose some color problems with my Sony BDP-s390 player and a Panasonic 42PZ85 and Westinghouse VR-3730 HDTVs. I originally noticed poor chroma alignment with the YCC=4:2:2 color output to the Panasonic plasma TV. Basically, following S&M suggestions for performance evaluation I found that the RGB color output to my TVs improved chroma alignment and gave me the best Chroma Burst and Chroma Zone Plate Test Pattern results. I improved the picture quality of both TVs or so I thought.

While doing research for this problem I came across Chris’s (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post22012693) work on a problem with the Sony S390 RGB output exaggerating GREEN output and clipping my TVs. So, I needed to look for color clipping levels in YCC=4:2:2 and RGB outputs for my displays. The S&M clipping display indicated a problem but I could not interpret the results without knowing the levels in the squares being show.

BTW, I noticed in the Right square the outer to inner squares go from 239, 254,244,251,247,239. Is the 244 square correct? It starts decreasing then increases for the single square then decreases toward the center low of 239. The count order looks funny (not monotonic)?

NOTE: This Chart was corrected by ConnecTEDDD in this thread below.
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post #12 of 30 Old 05-12-2012, 04:14 PM
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Plasma54321,

It sounds like you're running into the same issues with the RGB HDMI output that I am on the Sony players. There's a fairly in-depth and still on-going discussion about it here as well...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1406044

My tests (and Chris's) with similar patterns indicate that the Sony S390 and other recent Sony players are pushing green and also clipping it at about 92-93% stimulus in RGB HDMI mode. I can't really tell what's goin on in the WTW range though because I don't have good tests for that yet. So I'd be interested to see what your findings are, if you can check what's going on in the "above video white" range in both the RGB and YCbCr HDMI modes.

Feel free to try the PNG clip test I posted there as well.

It's a High Hide. A High Hide... See you go up and you hide, high. It goes up to where the trees are, and keeps the researchers out of harms way.

Actually, it'll put them at a very convenient biting height.
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post #13 of 30 Old 05-12-2012, 04:24 PM
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I see from your link above that there may also be a firmware fix for this in the works, which would be helpful.

It's a High Hide. A High Hide... See you go up and you hide, high. It goes up to where the trees are, and keeps the researchers out of harms way.

Actually, it'll put them at a very convenient biting height.
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post #14 of 30 Old 05-13-2012, 05:27 AM
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Where find Ted`s advanced calibration disk?
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post #15 of 30 Old 05-13-2012, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Where find Ted`s advanced calibration disk?

As he mentions, he made it for himself and doesn't distribute copies.

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post #16 of 30 Old 05-13-2012, 06:41 AM
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Bad news!
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post #17 of 30 Old 05-13-2012, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma54321 View Post

BTW, I noticed in the Right square the outer to inner squares go from 239, 254,244,251,247,239. Is the 244 square correct? It starts decreasing then increases for the single square then decreases toward the center low of 239. The count order looks funny (not monotonic)?





Plasma54321, Thank you for noticing that, i have just checked today using my VideoEQ all levels from 235-254 one by one. Previously posted Graph had some errors, i made that graph at 2010, i don't remember what went wrong, its been a while. I have updaTED my graph with corrected values for each box, i have double check each value.

(Plasma54321, please replace with the new graph picture your quote please.)

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post #18 of 30 Old 05-14-2012, 12:46 AM
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All these usefull clipping patterns are good to prevent the Color Clipping but if you need the correct luminance level for each level above white (and you are patient), you can use the VideoEQ to make these custom levels like my attached workflow using CalMAN + AVFoundry LUT Builder for controling the RGB Level + Luminance Level for each step above white. (below white, near black etc. also)

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post #19 of 30 Old 05-14-2012, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, again for the clipping diagram correction and update. I checked this pattern again this morning. Your latest data seems to be right. I only can observe the relative brightness of the squares on my display. This information really should have been in the S&M documentation somewhere.

I was wondering how you measured the S&M Clipping pattern. Pretty slick how you used the VideoEQ box and dropped the squares level until you found the equivalent interperlated value for the disc. That must have been tedious!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

... need the correct luminance level for each level above white (and you are patient), you can use the VideoEQ to make these custom levels like my attached workflow using CalMAN + AVFoundry LUT Builder for controling the RGB Level + Luminance Level for each step above white. (below white, near black etc. also)

That little VideoEQ box would be nice, but for right now I just have my basic TV controls to fix (or not) any problems. Maybe some day!

Thanks, again.
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post #20 of 30 Old 05-14-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma54321 View Post

I was wondering how you measured the S&M Clipping pattern. Pretty slick how you used the VideoEQ box and dropped the squares level until you found the equivalent interperlated value for the disc. That must have been tedious!

Clipping Pattern M2TS file from the disk has been examined and checked, it has the same value numbers also.

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post #21 of 30 Old 05-17-2012, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Thank you for your interest, this Advance Calibration Disk Project is personal, i have no plans to release it,

Even if you have no plans to release it, can you give an overview what patterns you created and which tools you did used?

And most interesting would be which of your own patterns you find the most usefull.
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post #22 of 30 Old 05-17-2012, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Clipping Pattern M2TS file from the disk has been examined and checked, it has the same value numbers also.

I love reverse engineering.
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post #23 of 30 Old 05-17-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV-Freak View Post

Even if you have no plans to release it, can you give an overview what patterns you created and which tools you did used?

And most interesting would be which of your own patterns you find the most usefull.

Thank you for your interest but it will be a huge & meanless spend of my free-time to answer all these questions about how-why made each pattern and fully discribe how to use each one-it's purpose, to kindly answer each user question and discuss for something that will never come out.

I made this disk only for me and i will never release it, i used some patterns and logos without permision etc.

Easily i can remove that logos and patterns i have no rights and release the others but it's not at my future plans.

There over 150 patterns, take a quick preview of some chapters.


































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post #24 of 30 Old 05-17-2012, 09:39 AM
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Greatest!!!
Can you give an overview which tools you did used?
Where did patterns?
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post #25 of 30 Old 05-17-2012, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Greatest!!!
Can you give an overview which tools you did used?
Where did patterns?

Photoshop+CorelDraw for Patterns.
Authored with similar method as AVSHD disk created.

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post #26 of 30 Old 05-17-2012, 09:59 AM
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Super!!!
Only Photoshop or only CorelDraw not enough?
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post #27 of 30 Old 05-17-2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Super!!!
Only Photoshop or only CorelDraw not enough?

Mostly CorelDRAW.

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post #28 of 30 Old 05-17-2012, 12:46 PM
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Thanx
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post #29 of 30 Old 05-17-2012, 01:41 PM
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Damn, Ted, I'm floored. The only things missing are Color Girl 1 and Color Girl 2 from the Qtec Hi-Definition Reference Disc.

Oh wait, I already have those........ lololol

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post #30 of 30 Old 05-18-2012, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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This post really should be saved as a sticky. It's an excellent reference to what a complete set of HDTV test patterns should look like. It can give all the DIYers an example of how a test pattern disc should be. Maybe someone can even come up with something that Ted doesn't already have? Or not! Bravo, Ted!
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