AE4000 Calibration help please - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 44 Old 05-22-2012, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

This is my first post on calibration and is really a last resort before giving up in frustration. I have read and tried the 2 main greyscale calibration guides, the Stereomandan's Calibration Method and the Greyscale for Dummies as well as reading numerous forums to try and understand where I'm going wrong.

I set the brightness and tint with AVSHD709, the contrast was reduced to just below 11ftL using a windowed 100% IRE pattern as the guide states that you cannot get an accurate calibration with it being any higher. Then I put that measurement into the spread sheet to equate the Y 10-100% scale. However the results seem unusual in relation to my actual figures. For example my Y at 100% should be 10.8 which currently reads 36. As a test I set the gamma using the spread sheet numbers but set them to ftL values instead of Y. I did this by lowering the Y adjustment in the projector advanced gamma settings. But to lower it enough I had to make large adjustments as much as -15 which doesn't sound right to me. Then I tweaked each RGB using the advanced 9 point gamma adjuster. After doing this the luminance and gamma got much closer but not too sure if I am on the right track. Attached are graphs of the defaults which show that the luminance is too high and the gamma too low as well and my attempts to correct them.

Does the gamma at 10% need to be at 2.15 to avoid black crush or as straight as possible?

I also tried to balance the RGB levels by adjusting the RGBhighend at 80% and RGBlowend at 30% but the problem is when they are all close to 100% the image looks decidedly red.

Here are some details and settings that might be of use:
i1Display Pro III (Did not do a pre-black calibration of the sensor).
92" Grandview Cyber Series Screen

Panasonic PT-AE400
ColorHCFR software (in options I selected Display Gamma (not with black compensation).
Projector settings:
Bulb - Eco mode (500 hours)
Colour1
Contrast -5
Brightness +2
Colour 0
Tint +5
Dynamic Iris - Off

So in conclusion I have got myself in a bit of a mess and would really appreciate some guidance please.

Thanks
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post #2 of 44 Old 05-22-2012, 10:12 AM
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The Panny 4000u should be calibrated starting in the Cinema 1 preset for best accuracy, though light output can be too low in that mode.
The 4000u's main shortcoming is that it is red deficient, despite the so called red rich lamp. Any attempt at getting high light output from it will result in the red white balance dropping severely at the bright end.

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post #3 of 44 Old 05-23-2012, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the tip. I had only really wanted to do a greyscale calibration, so thought colour1 would have been ok to use.

Could anyone please give me some advice on whether I am going about the process correctly, if I am making any fundamental errors etc.

Would I be better off just leaving the calibration alone and just use colour1 with the basic settings done using the AVS709 disc.

Thanks
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post #4 of 44 Old 05-23-2012, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeansibelius24 View Post

Thanks for the tip. I had only really wanted to do a greyscale calibration, so thought colour1 would have been ok to use.

Could anyone please give me some advice on whether I am going about the process correctly, if I am making any fundamental errors etc.

Would I be better off just leaving the calibration alone and just use colour1 with the basic settings done using the AVS709 disc.

Thanks

I'm by no means an expert but I own the AE4000 for ~2.5 years and had spent numerous hours to calibrate it (starting with a Spyder3 alone, and then recently purchased an i1Pro spectro to profile the Spyder3), and able to achieve very good result in Cinema 1.

Your approach seems correct; and don't worry for the large reduction of the Y level in advanced gamma adjustment to achieve a flat 2.2 gamma. Your measured display gamma depends on a lot of factors including your screen material and viewing environment (e.g. ambient light, reflective wall/ceiling, etc.)

To achieve a flat gamma of 2.2 from 10% to 90%, my 9-pt gamma adjustment in Color 1 mode (partially calibrated only because CMS is disabled in Color 1) is -10, -15, -19, -21, -21, -21, -19, -15, -12; and my 9-pt gamma adjustment in Cinema 1 mode (which was fully calibrated incl. the color gamut using its CMS) is even more drastic: -11, -15, -20, -23, -26, -26, -25, -19, -15. The up-side of this is that you can enjoy the picture with much more depth (because the default out-of-the-box gamma is just way too low - even below 2.0 in my case, making the image looks flat and washed out); but the down-side is that the image will look dimmer (but in my opinion, it does not make sense to watch a bright image but with a flat, washed out look). So in my case it's worth it.

If you used your meter to calibrate for the D65 white point and the image appears to your eyes too red, you should start to questioning the accuracy of your meter. This is my case when I used Spyder3 along - which reads red too low (so caused me adding too much red to the white balance). Profiled it with a trustable spectro such as i1Pro just clear my headache totally, and I have a reasonable profiled meter to do the gamut work with much higher accuracy. The resulting picture displayed in my calibrated Cinema 1 mode is just - only one word to describe - stunning.
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post #5 of 44 Old 05-23-2012, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that, I will give it a go tonight using Cinema 1 as a starting point. If I use Cinema 1 though would I have to also adjust the colours as well as the greyscale?

My sensor is pretty new so I don't imagine there's a problem with it. Could I do the red measurement by eye and adjust it until just before it looks too red and then set green and blue using the sensor?

What would happen if I just adjusted the luminance and gamma, would there be no benefit if the rgb levels and colour temperature are off?

Finally does the i1Display Pro III need a black pre-calibration before taking the readings?

Cheers
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post #6 of 44 Old 05-23-2012, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeansibelius24 View Post

Thanks for that, I will give it a go tonight using Cinema 1 as a starting point. If I use Cinema 1 though would I have to also adjust the colours as well as the greyscale?

My sensor is pretty new so I don't imagine there's a problem with it. Could I do the red measurement by eye and adjust it until just before it looks too red and then set green and blue using the sensor?

What would happen if I just adjusted the luminance and gamma, would there be no benefit if the rgb levels and colour temperature are off?

Finally does the i1Display Pro III need a black pre-calibration before taking the readings?

Cheers


The D3 does not need a dark reading.
Start with all setting at default (reset the input)
Do contrast, brightness and sharpness.
If you have a choice choose the gamma you think you want.
Do a 10 point gamma run and see how it tracks.
If it is what you expect continue, if not try a different preset gamma if there is one.
Next run a 10 point gray scale reading.
use whatever tools the projector has to correct the gray scale as much as possible.
Recheck Brightness and Contrast
rerun you gamma readings to make sure you did not alter that to much when doing gray scale.
STOP! Put every thing away.
Watch content for a week or so.
Revisit if you find things that need attention.
I specifically did not say to adjust color or tint or CMS
You need a baseline of what your display looks like with white at D65 so you know if you are helping or hindering as you move forward in your calibration.

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post #7 of 44 Old 05-23-2012, 02:36 PM
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I am also doing a full D65 CAL on an AE4000 I recently purchased and let me just say while the level of control and features on this unit is fantastic the calibration is a royal pain in the arse (more severe interactions than any other display I have done). I have already gone through it three times and discovered what Chad mentioned above while attempting a Dynamic mode CAL (also could not correct Green better than dE 3 in Dynamic).

My 9 point Cinema 1 gamma is similar to what dominickwok posted above only slightly less movement on the numbers.

Does anyone know if the AE4000 can handle 2.4 Gamma without any issues, was considering trying it?

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post #8 of 44 Old 05-23-2012, 03:41 PM
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If I recall, the Panny's never calibrated that well in dynamic mode, the Epsons are better at that. Most LCD projectors are a major pain to calibrate regardless, they are more sensitive and it is also very easy to lose all the native on/off just by changing a few settings. I would probably not use a flat gamma unless you are forced to, 2.4 flat is too "murky dark" anyways on a projector at this level of native on/off. Even on my JVC I prefer a non-flat gamma that averages around 2.3, as 2.4 is too extreme dark to me in the lower IRE's.

I would probably shoot for 2.2 to 2.25 average, start at 2.0 or 2.1 at 5 IRE and slowly bump up linearly towards 20-25 IRE up to about 2.25 to maybe 2.3, stick to 2.2 to 2.3 to about 70 IRE, then do another bump up if needed past 70 IRE to 2.3 to 2.4 if you wish (staying flat is fine as well). Just whatever looks best, but 2.4 FLAT overall is too extreme (especially in the lower IRE's), as scenes will not have enough shadow detail.

Those are generalities, it may look better to stay at 2.2 between 25-70 IRE anyways or even lower, just depends on how the overall calibration comes out sometimes (IMHO).



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post #9 of 44 Old 05-23-2012, 04:04 PM
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Well all of the displays in my house, except one, are at 2.4 so it has grown on me. Other than a brief trial on the Epson 3010 this is the only LCD projector I have owned so still adjusting to the over-all image and trying to make it look more DLP'ish (hehe). Once I get the AE4000 nailed down (quirks/shortcomings/etc) I'll run through a 2.4 Gamma and see how it comes out, motivated by curiosity.

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post #10 of 44 Old 05-23-2012, 04:38 PM
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Whatever looks best to a particular individual is what I agree someone should use, although many calibrators would tell you not to do a flat gamma if you can help it.

I used to do flat gammas as it was easier, but eventually I did the bumpy gamma and I think it is better if you have the patience to do it.



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post #11 of 44 Old 05-23-2012, 04:46 PM
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Sure an S-curve can give you more, used an averaged 2.4 S on the Sharp 12k mkII (looked amazing), but it's not technically 'accurate'. Although now it seems hollywood is going to 2.4 vs 2.2 so it's all a preference anyway, at least within each displays capabilities.

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post #12 of 44 Old 05-23-2012, 06:02 PM
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I just personally experienced that with a flat gamma measured on the JVC at 2.4, there were certain scenes in some movies that I could not take, and I have about 50,000:1 native on/off with no IRIS to mess it up. I had the brightness/contrast/black level controls set correctly, as noted by many in the forums. Most others (many even with RS-55's that can do 80,000:1 on/off) thought that a flat 2.4 is too dark as well.

I can name one, in Thor when he starts the fighting on the frost troll planet, it was actually hard for me to see any detail at all (almost unwatchable) at 2.4 gamma below 20 IRE. There were others as well.



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post #13 of 44 Old 05-24-2012, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I will try and set the gamma as suggested at 5% IRE to 2.1 and raise is to 2.2 at 25% and then run it flat from there. What would be the benefits of raising the gamma at 70% to 2.4?

After doing the adjustment do I need to check the brightness and raise it using the AVSHD 709 disc or would that affect the calibration settings.

Is it best to set the contrast by reducing the Y value at 100% IRE until it is just under 11ftL or is there a better way?

Does anyone calibrate the primary and secondary brightness afterwards to give the image pop as suggested in the Stereomandan method and if so is it worth doing.

Thanks
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post #14 of 44 Old 05-24-2012, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeansibelius24 View Post

After doing the adjustment do I need to check the brightness and raise it using the AVSHD 709 disc or would that affect the calibration settings.

Is it best to set the contrast by reducing the Y value at 100% IRE until it is just under 11ftL or is there a better way?

Does anyone calibrate the primary and secondary brightness afterwards to give the image pop as suggested in the Stereomandan method and if so is it worth doing.

Thanks

Changing the 9-pt gamma setting shouldn't have any impact on your black level (Brightness) setting - but of course it's worth to just do a quick check. But if you adjust your Brightness again, your gamma tracking will be likely changed.

For setting contrast, besides you want to achieve the Y value of 11 ftL at 100%, please also watch out for setting it to high so that the red color starts to running out - which will cause a blue tint on your 100% white as well as a drastic drop of your gamma at 90%.

I followed the Stereomandan method and his spreadsheet to calibrate the AE4000's Cinema 1 color gamut with the 75% saturation patterns, and achieved a very good linearity tracking of color brightness level from 0% to 75% saturation levels (for all primiaries and secondaries).
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post #15 of 44 Old 05-25-2012, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Tried a greyscale calibration that went reasonably well, but the gamma line had a few points that were slightly off, would that have an effect on the quality of the image?

I also checked the brightness after the calibration using the avshd 709 pattern and it was darker. So to get it back to the correct setting I would have to raise it up 2 clicks. Is it best to leave it darker or make the brightness adjustment.

Thanks
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post #16 of 44 Old 05-25-2012, 12:24 PM
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Even tiny changes in gamma can be noticeable. You should just copy your calibration to multiple presets, then play with different gammas. The gamma preference partly depends on the room conditions and the user's preference as well. For me anyhow, I much prefer the curved gamma on a projector over the flat because of problems with shadow detail in dark scenes and blowout lighting in bright scenes. Bumping to 2.3 or 2.4 above 70 IRE reduces the bright scene contrast blowout issue.

Flat gammas work better on good TV's than they do on projectors, because a good TV will have MUCH higher intrascene contrast, so it isn't as big of a problem. Projectors struggle in two conditions, one is dark scene contrast and the other is when the scene gets too bright in an uneven manner (think bright light coming through a cafe window in the morning), that's why the curve method works better on a projector (IMHO as always).



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post #17 of 44 Old 05-25-2012, 03:49 PM
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I obtained a gamma of 2.2 in Cinema 1 and the range is 2.19 to 2.22 with no ill effects. Grayscale came out under dE 1 other than 10 (dE 1.4), 90 (dE 1.6), 100 (dE 2.4). My brightness setting remained the same.

Don't bother attempting a gamma calibration in Dynamic mode, creates a mess with the factory pre-set. Odd thing was when I combined my CMS calibration from Cinema 1 with Dynamic mode it actually worked really well so I saved a "Dynamic Cinema" mode (hehe).

Still have to do grayscale/basics on Color 1 and compare to full CAL Cinema 1.

I tested a 2.4 in cinema 1 at the low end and it is too dark, my AE4000 cannot handle it with 1620 hours on the lamp in my dark walled/light controlled room.

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post #18 of 44 Old 05-25-2012, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi, I just wanted to make sure that before setting the gamma that the shape was correct first, so I have attached an image of the gamma line that I will try and follow. If it's wrong could you let me know please.
LL
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post #19 of 44 Old 05-25-2012, 08:12 PM
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Looks pretty good, but I'd let your eyes over time be the final judge, and you may want a sharper curve on the lower end 2.0 to 2.25 (up to you though). As we noted before, there is no perfect magic gamma, it just depends, you'll have to eye it out over time across multiple content. If I were calibrating someone elses projector on a limited time-frame, I probably would just do exactly what you did or close to it, because I don't have time to go over it by eye.

I sometimes also change the gamma for some movies, because they were mastered screwy for some reason (there aren't that many but some).



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post #20 of 44 Old 05-31-2012, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I tried another gamma calibration last night and got a bit closer but still not bang on. If the yellow luminance line in the gamma graph is exact but the rgb lines are slightly off would that matter much? I have attached the graph to show my results, not sure if it's good enough.

I'm still having problems with the rgb levels and temperature. I attempted to set it after doing the gamma, using a 80% IRE window and then adjusting the Contrast RGB sliders until the RGB bars were at 100% each and then at 30% IRE with the Brightness RGB sliders. To my eye it looks pinkish, however I did another greyscale run and the gamma started to tail off towards 80% but the RGB levels and temperature graph looked much better. Any ideas how I could sort the problem, perhaps I could set just the Red by eye or even just not bother with it.

Thanks
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post #21 of 44 Old 06-03-2012, 03:05 AM
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I'm going to keep an eye on this thread as I'm wondering how much the black level improves after calibration. The blacks on my 4000 seems to be a bit crushed/washed out at the moment and was wondering/hoping a good calibration would fix that... everything else about the PJ such as bright scenes are fantastic

On the same topic, are the blacks on the 4000 usually a bit washed out from the factory anyway?


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post #22 of 44 Old 06-06-2012, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I just wondered if there was a way to test my i1display pro 3 for accuracy asI tried again to set RGB levels in Cinema1 mode and the IRE windows from about 30% looked pink. To get the RGB bars to sit equal at 100% using the 90% and 30% IRE windows my settings were Contrast R +9 G -16 B -19 and Brightness R -4 G 0 B +2. Then I took a reading at 100% and the ftL dropped from about 10.5 to 9. I just cant work out where I am going wrong with this.

Would I be better off just leaving the gamma which is pretty close but with the RGB levels and temperature off or just to reset it to the defaults and select colour1 mode.

Just seem to be going nowhere fast trying to calibrate this projector. Could anyone suggest anything before I give up.

Thanks
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post #23 of 44 Old 06-08-2012, 01:10 PM
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I'm another person who has been attempting to calibrate this projector. I am currently using a ColorMunki Display, and it's my understanding that they are virtually identical to the i1 Display Pro, hardware-wise. I have the probe on a tripod about 18" from my screen (an AT 110" Vutec, about 0.9 gain, I believe), pointing somewhat "up" towards the middle, so it's shadow does not fall on the test image. The PJ is ceiling-mounted about 12' from the screen, in a light-controlled room. (I'm realizing that between a negative-gain screen that pushes the size limit for the PJ and a relatively long throw distance, I will likely never get an adequately bright screen in any of the Cinema or Color modes. I'm strongly considering re-mounting the PJ at its closest limit for zoom/offset without having to resort to keystone adjustment, if that would give me a few more lumens.)

I'm having a similar experience to jeansibelius24, in that I had to adjust the primaries' contrast/brightness in a likewise way to get HCFR to report proper balance in the "RGB levels" graph, but the middle greyscale still has a pinkish look. I decided that this is due to the individual gammas of the primaries being out of balance, and I had some success getting rid of the redness by viewing the gamma graph's indiv. colors and going into the PJ's advanced gamma adjustment mode and tweaking the indiv. primaries along its 9-point graphs. For me, this approach had its trade-offs, though. Going too far in tweaking the gammas had the effect of throwing RGB back out of balance, and would create narrow bands of color imbalance in the greyscale ramp. (Note that I tried this approach for Dynamic, Normal, Cinema 1 and Color 1.) I also went into the PJ's CMS menu and had some limited success matching its gamut to 709, but had some problems with green.

I decided not to insist on D65 due to the red issues with this lamp, and tried using D75 as a reference instead. I had better luck going through the "greyscale for dummies" process this way, but found it was still impossible (for me at least) to overcome the red-poor issues of the PJ unless I was using Cinema 1.

Although Cinema 1 was easiest to get close to D65 with fewer gamma problems, it was still just too dim for me. My compromise approach at this point was to use Normal, set main contrast to ~18 ft./L, and set brightness so Y of 10 IRE was 10% of IRE 100. Next I adjusted RGB to D75 for IRE 80 and 30, then looked at the slider contrast levels needed to do this and intentionally cut them in half. (Although this goofs up RGB, I knew this would make setting the gammas for the indiv colors easier without getting strange bands of color bias in the greyscale ramp. This projector seems to be all about compromises.) Last, I measured the primaries/secondaries and played with the CMS until I got as close to the primary reference points as possible (still trouble with green), and tweaked the secondaries so their dashed lines intersected as close as I could make them to my greyscale dot cluster.

(I have no idea if this was a better way to approach calibrating this PJ, I'm just kind of throwing darts.)
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post #24 of 44 Old 06-11-2012, 02:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that.

Is there anyone who has succesfully calibrated one of these beasts without too much hassle? It's beginning to seem like an uphill struggle and a waste of lamp life. If yes perhaps you could share any tips, methods and settings.
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post #25 of 44 Old 06-11-2012, 06:57 AM
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I have calibrated a few without too much hassle, and done my best with several others with plenty of hassle. The difference is it goes well and accurately if the owner has it projecting onto a small and/or high gain (Silverstar/High Power) screen. Then there is enough light output to work with and Cinema1 calibration goes well.
On the other hand, when the customer has it projecting on a screen that is too large and/or negative gain, there's almost no hope of getting a cal that both looks and measures well. I had to make compromises like calibrating to D7500, accepting large red dropoff at the high end, etc. Still looked much better in the end, so it was worth doing, but it's difficult for me to accept as a calibrator.

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post #26 of 44 Old 06-11-2012, 12:52 PM
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Thank you Chad,

Do you have any advice as to the order of the cal steps I should take, compromises I can make (and ones I shouldn't), and what the elements of the PJ's output (luminance vs. greyscale vs. gamma etc.) are in degree of importance? (i.e. some settings may not be worth fussing over vs. others). Note that "Normal" or "Dynamic" are really my only viable choices at this point, so with you as a professional calibrator, I understand you may have to "hold your nose" wink.gif in offering suggestions. TIA!
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post #27 of 44 Old 06-12-2012, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I would also be very interested in the steps too (if they differ from the greyscale dummies guide) and what parts of the calibration are the most important to getting the best image possible.

Also is it normal to make very large adjustments to the low and highend sliders to get the RGB levels correct. My blue is -19 and the red is +9. Is doing a 80 and 30% IRE window reading the way most people get accurate results?

Thanks.
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post #28 of 44 Old 06-13-2012, 07:02 AM
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I don't want to do this from memory. I think I have one on the schedule for later this month; I'll see what I can do about taking notes to share.

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post #29 of 44 Old 06-13-2012, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeansibelius24 View Post

I would also be very interested in the steps too (if they differ from the greyscale dummies guide) and what parts of the calibration are the most important to getting the best image possible.
Also is it normal to make very large adjustments to the low and highend sliders to get the RGB levels correct. My blue is -19 and the red is +9. Is doing a 80 and 30% IRE window reading the way most people get accurate results?
Thanks.

I owned this projector for two and a half years and used >100 hours to play around its calibration controls (counted from absolutely zero experience on using meter + software for DIY calibration). Based on my experience:

- Large changes on the 9-pt gamma control will have a significant impact on your grayscale
- Moderate changes on the primaries using its CMS (in RGBCMY mode) will have a noticeable (or measurable) impact on your grayscale
- Changing your grayscale (RGB Contrast / Brightness) will have a measurable impact on your secondaries

Therefore, my advice is:
- If you're going to do the CMS work, you better adjust your primaries first before you adjust the grayscale (I'm using the 75% saturation method for both primaries and secondaries http://www.avsforum.com/t/1134710/epson-calibration-guide-1080-1080ub-6100-6500ub-7500ub#post_16166537)
- If you're going to use the 9-pt gamma adjustment, you better do it first before you adjust the grayscale
- After you adjust the primaries, gamma and grayscale, then you adjust the secondaries in the CMS
- Repeat the adjustments iteratively to narrow down the changes in each iteration and finally conclude it when you're satisfied with your dE's

For the RGB Contrast / Brightness settings, I think you're fine as long as the meter (assuming reasonably accurate, e.g. spectro or spectro-profiled colorimeter) tells you the grayscale is reasonably flat with acceptable dE's. In my case (using Cinema 1), I set the main "Colour Temp" control (i.e. the one in the main top menu) to -3, thus reducing the blue overall across the range before adjust ingmy grayscale, and finally set the Contrast R/G/B to +4 / 0 / 0 and Brightness R/G/B to +2 / 0 / +2.
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post #30 of 44 Old 06-14-2012, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks alot for that info, really appreciate it.

Just wondered, do I set the colour temperature to -3 then set the colour and tint using a test pattern with the blue filter before moving onto setting the primaries, or do I leave the settings on zero?

My contrast is currently on the default setting generating 10.6ftL with a 100% Ire pattern, is that good enough as a starting point?

When setting the CMS RGB levels with the 75% saturation windows do I just adjust the colour slider to attain the desired RGB percentages as I noticed there was also a tint and brightness control too?
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