Should I use calibrated preset for TV channels and videogames? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 05-27-2012, 01:40 AM - Thread Starter
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ALso, should I use the calibrated preset when watching sports?
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post #2 of 24 Old 05-27-2012, 07:41 AM
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Yes.
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post #3 of 24 Old 05-27-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sefmiller View Post

ALso, should I use the calibrated preset when watching sports?

you should use it for all program material and gaming
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post #4 of 24 Old 05-27-2012, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Is it not true that most tv programs & games don't use calibrated cameras or monitors.
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post #5 of 24 Old 05-27-2012, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sefmiller View Post

Is it not true that most tv programs & games don't use calibrated cameras or monitors.

If and when a motion imaging industry program production technician fails to adhere to world wide standards and best practices, it is an exception rather than the rule. Without standards, all one has left is personal whim, guesswork, and chaos. There is no "calibrated preset" for chaos. You can assume the video signal being displayed has played by the rules of the system, and watch it under calibrated conditions, or you can try to guess what the signal is supposed to look like. Good luck with guessing.
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post #6 of 24 Old 05-27-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sefmiller View Post

Is it not true that most tv programs & games don't use calibrated cameras or monitors.

the best you can do in that case is still use the calibrated pic mode (assuming that is truly what's happening)
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post #7 of 24 Old 05-27-2012, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, thanks for the help
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post #8 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 02:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

If and when a motion imaging industry program production technician fails to adhere to world wide standards and best practices, it is an exception rather than the rule. Without standards, all one has left is personal whim, guesswork, and chaos. There is no "calibrated preset" for chaos. You can assume the video signal being displayed has played by the rules of the system, and watch it under calibrated conditions, or you can try to guess what the signal is supposed to look like. Good luck with guessing.

I have read on here that there is no industry standard for games, except thx certified games.

I've also read on here that tv differs from channel can channel. Also, on any given channel there can be program to program variations.
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post #9 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sefmiller View Post

I have read on here that there is no industry standard for games, except thx certified games.

I've also read on here that tv differs from channel can [?] channel. Also, on any given channel there can be program to program variations.

There are video industry standards, engineering guidelines, and recommended practices commonly used throughout the world. There are also electronic game producers who care about how their programs look when viewed through a video system. There are also game producers who don't come from a video industry background, but come from the computer industry. The computer industry uses different standards and practices from the video industry. This is part of the reason some games don't look right when displayed on a calibrated video system. Another reason such programs may not look right is due to the fact that humans are involved. Human error is a fact of life in any technical endeavor. Please provide an example, or examples, of what was actually said in the posts you read.

The AV Science forum is not a video industry standards body. Neither are the members who post here. Neither is THX, Ltd.

Television programs pass through many stages of development before they are in a form that can be delivered to a viewer. Many programs actually begin being recorded on film, not video. They also pass through various distribution devices, pipelines, and technologies on their way to your display. It is always best to view video programs with a display that has been calibrated properly. It is also always available to make fine adjustments to compensate for programs that you perceive to need correction. That is your choice, but any deviation from the calibrated state can also be reversed after viewing such a program. Any change you make is a personal judgement to satisfy your preference, nothing more. It appears you need to read the opening post in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933 .
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post #10 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 10:36 AM
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Sometimes I just pine for the "good old days" when one just pulled a new TV out of the box and turned the color/tint knobs until people didn't look too boiled-lobsterish or too martianish. Or even just pushed the "auto-color" button ... Life was simpler then ... people complained when gas hit $0.29/gal!!!

No twitterverse ... no CNN/FNC/MSNBC ... no "Situation," "Hiltons, or "Kardasians."

... Then again, there was that nasty business in SE Asia ... the constant threat of mutually assured destruction ...

Have a peaceful Memorial Day. Carry on ...
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post #11 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's the qoute. It's from the user Doug Blackburn (sorry to namedrop). If the majority of games and tv programs do follow standards, then I see it as worthwhile. Otherwise, I don't think I should calibrate for them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Games aren't made to any specific standard, so calibrating for an Xbox isn't particularly helpful. There's nothing particularly bad about the output of the Xbox (via HDMI) that requires a special calibration. Even though games vary, colorwise, the variations aren't so obvious that 1 game looks wildly different than the next. But there is no "industry standard" for games. THX certified games are calibrated to a standard and may (emphasis on MAY) look a little more accurate than some non-certified games.

Cable and satellite are different for every channel. There's no way to calibrate for that... it's a fool's mission. And within any 1 channel, program to program variations can be as large as channel-to-channel variations. So you just live with what you've got. Things are better in the HDMI world than they used to be in the analog video world where the variations could be pretty large from box to box. HDMI eliminates a lot of that past variability.

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post #12 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Sometimes I just pine for the "good old days" when one just pulled a new TV out of the box and turned the color/tint knobs until people didn't look too boiled-lobsterish or too martianish. Or even just pushed the "auto-color" button ... Life was simpler then ... people complained when gas hit $0.29/gal!!!

No twitterverse ... no CNN/FNC/MSNBC ... no "Situation," "Hiltons, or "Kardasians."

... Then again, there was that nasty business in SE Asia ... the constant threat of mutually assured destruction ...

Have a peaceful Memorial Day. Carry on ...

Video done correctly has never really been just 'plug-and-play.' Excellence in any endeavor requires extra effort. Life is as simple as one makes it. Personally, I have chosen to not participate in any of the aforementioned modern cultural pursuits. We each select where we devote our time and resources. 'Popularity' and genuine individual benefit are not mutually inclusive.

I found these quotes inspirational on this Memorial Day, most especially in remembering the full devotion of the fallen:

"It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." Abraham Lincoln

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countryman." Samuel Adams

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

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post #13 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sefmiller View Post

Here's the qoute. It's from the user Doug Blackburn (sorry to namedrop). If the majority of games and tv programs do follow standards, then I see it as worthwhile. Otherwise, I don't think I should calibrate for them

Everything I have said previously still applies.
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post #14 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

It is always best to view video programs with a display that has been calibrated properly. It is also always available to make fine adjustments to compensate for programs that you perceive to need correction. That is your choice, but any deviation from the calibrated state can also be reversed after viewing such a program. Any change you make is a personal judgement to satisfy your preference, nothing more. It appears you need to read the opening post in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933 .

I will follow this advice. Thanks
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post #15 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Video done correctly has never really been just 'plug-and-play.' Excellence in any endeavor requires extra effort. Life is as simple as one makes it. Personally, I have chosen to not participate in any of the aforementioned modern cultural pursuits. We each select where we devote our time and resources. 'Popularity' and genuine individual benefit are not mutually inclusive.

Yeah ... my point was simply that we should be thankful that we (most of us anyway) live in a time and place where we have the luxury of arguing over things that ultimately have little or no meaning on the grand scale of "really important stuff."

And on the original topic, I would say calibrate for your video/BD sources and just let the chips fall where they will on games.
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post #16 of 24 Old 05-29-2012, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sefmiller View Post

Here's the qoute. It's from the user Doug Blackburn (sorry to namedrop). If the majority of games and tv programs do follow standards, then I see it as worthwhile. Otherwise, I don't think I should calibrate for them

Doug's comments regarding games are completely wrong.

In a modern game development studioand certainly all that I have been in touch withat the very least, the artist's displays are calibrated to sRGB, which is essentially the BT.709 gamut with a flat 2.2 gamma. (technically there is a specific sRGB transfer function, but none of the calibration packages used even support that, let alone use it)

So games should essentially be using the same calibration on your display as films do, except with a flat 2.2 gamma rather than 2.4 or the BT.1886 transfer function.

The Xbox 360 output is especially bad however, because Microsoft in their infinite wisdom decided to avoid following industry standards and use their own custom transfer function. If you want to read more on this, there is good information here: http://filmicgames.com/archives/14

The end result is that some developers have compensated for this as best they can, but others have completely overlooked it. If the game was developed with the 360 as the lead platform, it might look fine and other versions will look washed out but the opposite may also be trueif the game is also coming out on PS3 and PC, the 360 version may end up looking very dark and contrasted. So with the 360 at least, you may have to deviate from standards to get a good looking image with some games. I would recommend using the game's own brightness/gamma settings if they have any, so this can be done on a per-game basis.

If you are gaming on PC or PS3, chances are that you shouldn't have to touch anything once your display has been calibrated to the BT.709 gamut with a 2.2 gamma.
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post #17 of 24 Old 05-29-2012, 11:04 AM
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So, we should just calibrate our sets to the rec.709 standard so that our display device meets standards, and as HDTVChallenged, said, "let the chips fall where they will.." because it seems to me that the only thing we have control over is our own display in our own environment.
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post #18 of 24 Old 05-29-2012, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

So, we should just calibrate our sets to the rec.709 standard so that our display device meets standards, and as HDTVChallenged, said, "let the chips fall where they will.." because it seems to me that the only thing we have control over is our own display in our own environment.

yes, that's the best we can do... trying to calibrate for content that doesn't follow any known reference standards is like trying to chase your tail... so it doesn't matter whether Doug was right or wrong in the grand scheme of things
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post #19 of 24 Old 05-29-2012, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Yeah ... my point was simply that we should be thankful that we (most of us anyway) live in a time and place where we have the luxury of arguing over things that ultimately have little or no meaning on the grand scale of "really important stuff."

yes, video calibration is a luxury... obviously there are more important things in the world to worry about
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post #20 of 24 Old 05-29-2012, 09:59 PM
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This is the part where I confess that what little gaming I do is on a PS3 which is also my BD player. So there's that to consider.
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post #21 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

...So with the 360 at least, you may have to deviate from standards to get a good looking image with some games...

By "deviate from standards" do you mean create a calibration profile on your display specific to 360 viewing (one that is corrected for it's output errors)?
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post #22 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ZandarKoad View Post

By "deviate from standards" do you mean create a calibration profile on your display specific to 360 viewing (one that is corrected for it's output errors)?

Kind of, yes. Because Microsoft deviated from standards with their transfer function, an end user would need to match that transfer function with their display's gamma in order for games to be rendered properly. But, of course that's assuming the maker of the game hasn't already attempted to compensate for the bad transfer function (which, according to the article that Chronoptimist linked, some have). So even if you do correct for it, you're still back to square one because you don't know whether the game has compensated for it or not.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #23 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

Kind of, yes. Because Microsoft deviated from standards with their transfer function, an end user would need to match that transfer function with their display's gamma in order for games to be rendered properly. But, of course that's assuming the maker of the game hasn't already attempted to compensate for the bad transfer function (which, according to the article that Chronoptimist linked, some have). So even if you do correct for it, you're still back to square one because you don't know whether the game has compensated for it or not.

Hrm. I wouldn't call that a deviation. I would call that proper calibration for that source device. But I understand what you're saying... The cost/benefit analysis which is inevitable when deciding upon calibration for gaming would be affected by these facts (if they are indeed true).

Yet, as GAB has pointed out from a fidelity standpoint, it's always better to calibrate than to not. You can't possibly worry whether a game designer did what they were supposed to do... All you can do is set your display to your source device correctly. There's no way this could make the games look worse, only better (potentially, and when done correctly).
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post #24 of 24 Old 12-10-2012, 02:10 AM
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Calibrating to the sRGB space is much better I think instead of guys just telling you to adjust it the way you like, because us human will try to make the display look good bye eyeballing it, but will always get it wrong.

I have a question if this thread isn't too old lol. When my displays Game mode has been calibrated to the sRGB space, should I bother with the brightness sliders in games.

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