PERFECT Matching for PS3 and Samsung ADC? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 05-30-2012, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm requesting help to somebody who can explain me if i'm correct:

ADC TARGET for conversion 8bit to 10bit:

- For 16-235 (8bit) --> (10 bit conversion) 4 represents black and 940 represents white
- For 0-255 (8bit) --> (10 bit conversion) 0 represents black and 1023 represents white

If i change my ADC TARGET High Values from 940 to 1023 and my Low value from 4 to 0, i'll obtain the full 0-255 callibration for that sources?.

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post #2 of 22 Old 05-30-2012, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post

I'm requesting help to somebody who can explain me if i'm correct:

ADC TARGET for conversion 8bit to 10bit:

- For 16-235 (8bit) --> (10 bit conversion) 4 represents black and 940 represents white
- For 0-255 (8bit) --> (10 bit conversion) 0 represents black and 1023 represents white

If i change my ADC TARGET High Values from 940 to 1023 and my Low value from 4 to 0, i'll obtain the full 0-255 callibration for that sources?.

I wouldn't attempt to do what you are thinking of doing. Messing with the ADC settings in the service menu will damage your PQ in ways you might not even fully understand. If you want to calibrate for a PC levels source, set the source to RGB Full Range and HDMI Level to Normal on the TV and then calibrate from there (all within the user menu).
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post #3 of 22 Old 05-31-2012, 12:53 AM - Thread Starter
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What ways?, please try to explain it, i think i'll could understand.

If I change my ADC TARGET and after that I make a new calibration in the HDMI source, it is assumed that I will get ADC RESULT values ​​appropriate to the new target used. And then, If after that i do a new ADC WB callibration, what would be the problem that i'll going to find?.

I speak from the purest ignorance, i'm newbie and i'm making a question in an expert forum to find expert answers.

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post #4 of 22 Old 05-31-2012, 06:03 AM
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post #5 of 22 Old 05-31-2012, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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But, if it's not adjustable, why we can change values on it and, most important, why the ADC RESULT varies with it?. MAYBE, the YCBCR Calibration may not work correctly changing the TARGET ADC between 0 and 1020 because that would prevent that may be assessed "super whites" (> 235 to 255) in the highest range of 10 bit. But theoretically work FULL RGB calibration because it could map the values ​​0 to 0 and 255 to 1020. I think, from the most humble opinion and ignorance, the ADC RESULT may vary depending on the ADC TARGET values and if you set YCBCR values or if you set FULL RGB values you'll get different results.

Someone could confirm if this is correct and whether they, this changes could produce other problems that may damage the TV?. I think not but i'm asking the question to an expert forum looking for an expert answers.

thank you very much.

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post #6 of 22 Old 05-31-2012, 07:42 AM
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On my samsung the ADC Target values are not adjustable, they are fixed at 4-940 for HDMI input and you should use those values. Calibrate with YCbCr input and a checkerboard with levels 16-235. This will set video black (16) to DSP level 4 and video white (235) to DSP level 940. Superwhites will then occupy the range from 940-1023 in the DSP.
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post #7 of 22 Old 05-31-2012, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

On my samsung the ADC Target values are not adjustable, they are fixed at 4-940 for HDMI input and you should use those values. Calibrate with YCbCr input and a checkerboard with levels 16-235. This will set video black (16) to DSP level 4 and video white (235) to DSP level 940. Superwhites will then occupy the range from 940-1023 in the DSP.

In my Samsung, the ADC TARGET it's fully adjustable and you can go beyond 940. Let my try and i'll tell you the final ADC RESULT, perhaps even if i make the changes the DSP may ignore changes when passing from 940 and i don't get any results.

Do you think that, if i can change the ADC TARGET and set the "low" to 0 and "high" to 1020, if after that i callibrate with Checkerboard at 0-255 i'll would get an ADC RESULT based on FULL RGB range?.

look at this thread --> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=3141

look at this blog, the title where it says "Color" --> http://blog.evanweaver.com/2012/01/1...-for-xbox-360/

Regards,

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post #8 of 22 Old 05-31-2012, 02:41 PM
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I've already told you numerous times that calibrating using YCbCr 16-235 (4-940) will automatically give you correct response for full RGB input, this is why the service manual specifies this method. If you want to do it another way, go ahead. Setting the target higher will clip superwhite for YCbCr input and is equivalent to using a checkerboard with codes lower than 235 for the white portion, which you have already tried.
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post #9 of 22 Old 05-31-2012, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post

What ways?, please try to explain it, i think i'll could understand.

If I change my ADC TARGET and after that I make a new calibration in the HDMI source, it is assumed that I will get ADC RESULT values ​​appropriate to the new target used. And then, If after that i do a new ADC WB callibration, what would be the problem that i'll going to find?.

I speak from the purest ignorance, i'm newbie and i'm making a question in an expert forum to find expert answers.

I honestly don't know.

However, I do know that messing with the ADC settings in the service menu can only end badly (and it has for many TV owners who have entered the service menu on the Samsungs in particular). Those settings are already setup up properly in the factory when the TVs are put together and any changes will mess up the TV in more ways than one.
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post #10 of 22 Old 05-31-2012, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

On my samsung the ADC Target values are not adjustable, they are fixed at 4-940 for HDMI input and you should use those values. Calibrate with YCbCr input and a checkerboard with levels 16-235. This will set video black (16) to DSP level 4 and video white (235) to DSP level 940. Superwhites will then occupy the range from 940-1023 in the DSP.

why would you recommend making changes to the ADC calibration in the service menu (unless you're not and I'm misunderstanding your post)?
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post #11 of 22 Old 06-01-2012, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

why would you recommend making changes to the ADC calibration in the service menu (unless you're not and I'm misunderstanding your post)?

PlasmaZ80U,
Zoyd it's not recommending any change in ADC Calibration, he is explaining how you could get the best "16-235 response" using ADC Calibration to get the best black and the best white that YCBCR it's "capable". I personally admire his work, patience and effort to explain and help everyone to improve the potential of their tvs. Of course, I agree with you, televisions are properly configured at the factory but, as with most commercial hardware that is sold, "they" usually adjust the above configurations to search for sales than to a real flight to quality, It is the responsibility of the users get the most potential. Of Course, all these settings should to be performed with extreme caution given the consequent loss of warranty failure and i'm asking here to contrast it before making any change to serve to another users to get the most from his hardware.

Zoyd,
I know you told me lots of times, but I think it is possible to improve "FULL RGB sources" matching ADC TARGET to FULL RGB specifications. It is certain that your choice to YCBCR is perfect and that even covers the FULL RGB spectrum but, there is no possibility of that, as discussed in the blog and even other fellow forum, improve the "RGB color representation" by adjusting the "mathematical" calibration to 0-255 (0 to 1020)?.

I am investigating whether it is possible to improve the color rendering on PCs and consoles (PS3 or XBOX360) by exploiting the potential of the calibration of our televisions. Perhaps it was tailored to improve the quality for viewing movies or TV Blu-Ray support with some videogames but not dedicated to videogames as happens for example with the monitors.

Perhaps I am wrong since I don't have the experience and knowledge that you have here, I'll try this weekend and i promise to truthfully convey total if the results are correct or incorrect.

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post #12 of 22 Old 06-01-2012, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

why would you recommend making changes to the ADC calibration in the service menu (unless you're not and I'm misunderstanding your post)?

I'm not recommending anything, I'm answering the OP's question.
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post #13 of 22 Old 06-01-2012, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post


I am investigating whether it is possible to improve the color rendering on PCs and consoles (PS3 or XBOX360) by exploiting the potential of the calibration of our televisions. Perhaps it was tailored to improve the quality for viewing movies or TV Blu-Ray support with some videogames but not dedicated to videogames as happens for example with the monitors.

Perhaps I am wrong since I don't have the experience and knowledge that you have here, I'll try this weekend and i promise to truthfully convey total if the results are correct or incorrect.

If you are only going to send RGB (YCbCr is recommended for BD/DVD source) then theoretically you will gain some bit resolution (83/1024 = 8.1%) by changing the target to 1023 and calibrating with a 0-255 checkerboard. Whether or not you will actually notice this improvement I can't say. However, if you do it and switch to YCbCr output you will most likely clip one or more of the colors.
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post #14 of 22 Old 06-01-2012, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

If you are only going to send RGB (YCbCr is recommended for BD/DVD source) then theoretically you will gain some bit resolution (83/1024 = 8.1%) by changing the target to 1023 and calibrating with a 0-255 checkerboard. Whether or not you will actually notice this improvement I can't say. However, if you do it and switch to YCbCr output you will most likely clip one or more of the colors.

I'll test it tonight and i'll report if it's really interesting. The theoretically result could be a little more important because the maximum possible it's 1020 (255x4 to convert to 10bit), thus the division would be 83/1020. Apart from the loss of quality under YCBCR, is there any problem or hazard that may damage the panel if the test done? ... i don't want to break it making my proobs...

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post #15 of 22 Old 06-01-2012, 08:43 AM
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256х4=1024 (0-255)
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post #16 of 22 Old 06-01-2012, 08:44 AM
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no, you won't break anything. The worst that can happen is clipping some of the top levels, if that happens you will see a color shift in peak white since usually one color clips before the others.
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post #17 of 22 Old 06-02-2012, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

no, you won't break anything. The worst that can happen is clipping some of the top levels, if that happens you will see a color shift in peak white since usually one color clips before the others.



Hi Zoyd,
reporting results!:

- ADC TARGET MAX VALUE 1020, LOW VALUE 0.
- ADC RESULT with that confir and 16-255 or 0-255 FULL RGB CHECKERBOARD PATTERN and DELTA 2 (or 1 with minimum differences) = 130 - 74 - 74 - 74 (83 it's with a 16-245 pattern) is it correct?.
- ADC WB = 130 514 512 580

Subjective impressions:
- Little or no differences in terms of color.
- Little Improve in definition using RGB TYPE instead of HUESAT for color space.
- Little Improve in resolution.

What do you think?

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post #18 of 22 Old 06-02-2012, 04:16 AM
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post #19 of 22 Old 06-02-2012, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

You've done everything you can to optimize the ADC.

Thank you Zoyd, amazing job.

The results have been exactly as you explained, not very noticeable but enough to be satisfactory, that is, has been optimized. I should add that the amount of jaggies at 720p or 1080p is also reduced, especially noticeable in games like Gran Turismo.

Sincerelly Zoyd, excellent work, you do great this forum.

Thank you very much ,

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post #20 of 22 Old 06-07-2012, 12:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I have continued investigating this and i have a few answers,

1) Using "ADC TARGET 1020 Method" i think that i have loosed a little bit resolution based in your mathmatical formula (GAIIN / MAX_TARGET) --> gain 73 / max_target 1020 = 7,1%. If i use your YCBCR Pattern and "ADC TARGET 940 Method" i won a little bit resolution gain 70 /max_target 940 = 7,4%

2) How about first ADC RESULT's values, 2nd_R_L, 2nd_G_L and 3nd_B_L, mines are 132 by default (132-50 with RGB values)?. I noticed a small decrease in the "illumination" or "contrast", what's the top of this value?

3) I think that i could use 2nd_PC_VALUES to make the "ADC TARGET 1020 Method" and continue using "ADC TARGET 940 Method" with 2nd_HDMI_VALUES, because callibrating two "sets" to FULL RGB VALUES (132-50) i don't going to clip whites above 235 at 95 contrast. Is it possible or am i make a mistake in my calculations?.

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post #21 of 22 Old 06-07-2012, 03:03 PM
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post #22 of 22 Old 08-03-2012, 08:05 AM
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I don't understand why you talk so much about the number 1020. If the DAC is indeed 10 bit then it will be capable of 1024 diffrent values (2^10=1024).
This means a value from zero to (and including) 1023.

So if you only care about full range rgb (0-255) then you would map zero to zero and 255 to 1023.
Have i missed something?

Whats the highest target value that you can specify?
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