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post #1 of 38 Old 07-02-2012, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

I am somewhat new poster, only have posted issues about a samsung plasma tv I had and had to return. Anyways I have gotten a new TV from my return, a LG. I love the TV, great picture etc. I was just wondering though what is the point of trumotion. It gives the tv picture somewhat of a soap opera effect so to speak, and to me things look better with it on but certain things look weird with it on; such as lightsaber fights on my star wars blu-rays, during movement/colision of the sabers some distortion occurs.

So anyways to my question I guess. What is TruMotion, what is the point and when should I use it and when shouldn't I use it etc.

Hope you can help

Thanks,

Dustin
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post #2 of 38 Old 07-02-2012, 09:05 PM
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You can turn the blur reduction feature all the way up, but you should leave the judder reduction (smoothing) feature off if you want to movies and TV shows to look like they were intended to. Sometimes features like this don't work properly and can cause issues like stuttering motion or dropped/skipped frames (like with AMP on recent Samsungs) and in such cases leaving the entire feature off might be the only way to avoid such problems.
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post #3 of 38 Old 07-02-2012, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the blur reduction feature, is it the same option? Not really sure.
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post #4 of 38 Old 07-03-2012, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatenabu1 View Post

What is the blur reduction feature, is it the same option? Not really sure.

Sorry, I was using Samsung's names for these features. Select the "User" option for Trumotion and then set de-judder to the lowest value possible and de-blur to the highest value possible. If Trumotion is working correctly on your TV, then you will get the full motion resolution your TV is capable of while avoiding the soap opera effect (artificial smoothing). If you have issues with this setting, try setting Trumotion to off or perhaps low (if a little smoothing effect doesn't bother you).
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post #5 of 38 Old 07-03-2012, 12:54 PM
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TruMotion on the LG tvs interpolates the motion in between frames to "smooth" it out which results in the Soap Opera Effect (SOE). I have never had much luck trying the various combinations of blur reduction and juddering settings. When motion interpolation is turned off, a 120Hz set will show each frame twice as opposed to artificially inserting a frame. For me, I either keep TruMotion turned off completely or set to Highest when watching network television, depending on my mood. For movies (BD) I always keep motion interpolation turned off and Real Cinema turned on to preserve the natural cadence of 24p.
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post #6 of 38 Old 07-04-2012, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello, I am unsure if I have a de-blur option and a de-judder option. I can set the tru motion to user and move the de-judder to like 0, but then does that still activate the blur reduction, or is blur reduction a totally separate option? Sorry about all the questions, my TV didn't come with a user manual because it is a display model. I hope you can help.


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post #7 of 38 Old 07-05-2012, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatenabu1 View Post

Hello, I am unsure if I have a de-blur option and a de-judder option. I can set the tru motion to user and move the de-judder to like 0, but then does that still activate the blur reduction, or is blur reduction a totally separate option? Sorry about all the questions, my TV didn't come with a user manual because it is a display model. I hope you can help.
Dustin
Google "model number user guide" insert your model number for the search. You should be able to find a pdf of all the paper work for you display.
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post #8 of 38 Old 07-05-2012, 10:13 AM
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+1
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post #9 of 38 Old 07-05-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

TruMotion on the LG tvs interpolates the motion in between frames to "smooth" it out which results in the Soap Opera Effect (SOE). I have never had much luck trying the various combinations of blur reduction and juddering settings. When motion interpolation is turned off, a 120Hz set will show each frame twice as opposed to artificially inserting a frame. For me, I either keep TruMotion turned off completely or set to Highest when watching network television, depending on my mood. For movies (BD) I always keep motion interpolation turned off and Real Cinema turned on to preserve the natural cadence of 24p.

You make some valid points. Since my LG is only 60Hz, I didn't realize the custom de-judder/de-blur settings combo wasn't effective (unlike what CNET usually suggests for Samsung LED/LCDs; though even AMP is broken on recent Samsungs, at least in certain modes/input signal combos). Also, Real Cinema should be left on as it allows 4:4 pulldown on 60Hz sets (96Hz refresh rate) and 5:5 pulldown on 120Hz sets (obviously 120Hz refresh rate).
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post #10 of 38 Old 07-05-2012, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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So I found a TruMotion setting I like.I turn it to user and set the little scale at the bottom to 1. Any higher causes some distortion in different action scenes. I watched the lightsaber battle with darth maul several times in a row to get a setting I like that looks smooth and now distortions.

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post #11 of 38 Old 07-05-2012, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatenabu1 View Post

So I found a TruMotion setting I like.I turn it to user and set the little scale at the bottom to 1. Any higher causes some distortion in different action scenes. I watched the lightsaber battle with darth maul several times in a row to get a setting I like that looks smooth and now distortions.
Dustin

Cool. Again, it's all personal preference but I'm glad you found the User settings options. The same holds true for the Presets. If you modify one to your liking it will be listed as "Cinema (User)" as an example. That way you can keep track of what is default and what you have modified for each input. When I've used TruMotion, I have mine set a Judder 5 and Blur 1. But again, I leave it off for movies (blue-ray/DVD) because I prefer not to use any artificial enhancements when watching movies with the exception of Real Cinema (24p), which only works with blu-rays movies anyway, So many options, so little time....... wink.gif
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post #12 of 38 Old 07-05-2012, 08:34 PM
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......So anyways to my question I guess. What is TruMotion, what is the point and when should I use it and when shouldn't I use it etc.....
This "sticky" thread from the top of this area of the forum should help you understand the fundamental nature of video industry equipment calibration or alignment:

'Display Calibration: Root Fundamentals'
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933

There are an amazing variety of features found in consumer televisions. Unfortunately, TV manufacturers invest tragically little effort in educating the purchasers of their products. Of course they also realize that the vast majority of their customers would not devote the time and attention necessary to study a thick owner's manual. Therefore, the rare consumer who has the curiosity, intellect, and tenacity to study what their TV can actually do must go elsewhere for the education.

Purchasing and studying one or more of the popular home entertainment system setup programs on optical disc can provide tutorials and examples of how this stuff works. Forums such as this one are another venue to gain deeper understanding of how video works. However, there is no shortage of erroneous information mixed in with the good on hobbyist discussion boards. Seek and you shall find! Start with the fundamentals and build from a foundation of the basic principles. One of the best ways to recognize which features on TVs are disruptive to image fidelity is to learn what image fidelity is composed of.

Trial and error, or intuition and experimentation, are the long and unpredictable methods of arriving at reference picture quality. Such methods are how most TV owners determine what a sufficiently pleasing image is on their equipment. Most consumers have never seen a reference video image on a correctly adjusted television. So they are left to grope their way through the myriad of features, functions, and adjustments.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #13 of 38 Old 07-05-2012, 08:46 PM
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However, there is no shortage of erroneous information mixed in with the good on hobbyist discussion boards. Seek and you shall find!

+1, I guess you could say this is one of the things to look out for when researching any subject/topic on the web... it's up to the reader to be able to discern the factual information from the rest and it can be a bit confusing for those new to that subject/topic
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post #14 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 06:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Cool. Again, it's all personal preference but I'm glad you found the User settings options. The same holds true for the Presets. If you modify one to your liking it will be listed as "Cinema (User)" as an example. That way you can keep track of what is default and what you have modified for each input. When I've used TruMotion, I have mine set a Judder 5 and Blur 1. But again, I leave it off for movies (blue-ray/DVD) because I prefer not to use any artificial enhancements when watching movies with the exception of Real Cinema (24p), which only works with blu-rays movies anyway, So many options, so little time....... wink.gif

+1 * * *

Only an owner of a particular brand and model of TV can make the best assessment of what to do with settings like TruMotion or other motion interpolation features. It is sad that all too often what is passed off as factual information by self proclaimed "experts" is only another personal opinion. After all, it is doubtful many individuals have experience with EVERY model and iteration of TV models made each year, let alone keep up with firmware updates that may change actual operation and performance of certain features and options of a given TV.Even reviews of TVs may often only report what an early release model represents, rather than the volume released for consumer purchase.
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post #15 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 12:38 PM
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Well, some general rules do apply if image fidelity is the ultimate goal. For example, any de-judder setting that visibly smooths motion should be avoided when watching movies to preserve the natural look of 24fps film sources. As far as de-blur settings are concerned, you can use them if desired, assuming they don't add visible artifacts to the image. If a custom/user setting is employed you'd want to set de-judder to the lowest possible value (probably zero) and de-blur to the highest value that doesn't introduce artifacts. If Trumotion doesn't work right and the custom/user settings don't fix the issue, then leaving the feature completely off might be the best course of action.

To summarize, it's not desirable to use any feature that artificially smooths images nor is it a good idea to use a setting/option that adds artifacts to the image. The ultimate goal should be image fidelity and so the SOE is to be avoided entirely and de-blur is to be used only to the extent that doesn't add unwanted side effects. In some cases, a custom/user setting is best while in others turning off frame interpolation altogether is the best and only choice.
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post #16 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 01:13 PM
 
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Yes, as I said:

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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post


Only an owner of a particular brand and model of TV can make the best assessment of what to do with settings like TruMotion or other motion interpolation features. .


And any "general rules" are , again, an opinion and prerogative of an individual. SOE surely would not be an intended effect necessarily, but now with digital sources in most theaters who is to say since gone is the film judder and other issues attributed to film projection. So any "rules" are arbitrary and may no longer apply in the case of any new " image fidelity" as now it is all up in the air again regarding motion characteristics of the cinema sources. There are now more and more caveats as the digital transition in cinema sources progresses.
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post #17 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 01:34 PM
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Adding a smoothing effect to film sources is definitely a distortion and as such, it doesn't preserve image fidelity. One could say the same for any process on the end user side that adds or subtracts something from the source material.

Also, all commercially available BD movies are native 24fps. Don't see any room for opinion/personal preference with regard to established standards.

(Of course, if you don't want to follow the standards and just want to adjust de-judder settings to taste, then that is a another matter altogether and image fidelity is no longer a concern or a goal.)

Also, last time I checked there is still 24fps judder in the movie theaters.
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post #18 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 01:48 PM
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Also, last time I checked there is still 24fps judder in the movie theaters.

There is two different things, one is the inability for 24fps to capture fast smooth motion that can make things look a little jumpy.
The other is the 2:3 telecine of 24fps into 60fps.

The addition of the the 2:3 telecine can exacerbate the limitations of 24fps, especially on slower horizontal pans.

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post #19 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 01:59 PM
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There is two different things, one is the inability for 24fps to capture fast smooth motion that can make things look a little jumpy.
The other is the 2:3 telecine of 24fps into 60fps.
The addition of the the 2:3 telecine can exacerbate the limitations of 24fps, especially on slower horizontal pans.

Yeah, I was referring to the former. Is 2:3 pulldown judder only an issue with consumer TVs that don't have a refresh rate that is an even multiple of 24Hz (like most 60Hz sets)? Or can it also occur in a movie theater?
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I agree, the vertical jitter introduced by movie projectors also is and undesired effect. the titles at the end of a film were enough to cause a headache.

And any thoughts about judder free pans and other issues of film may now be a bygone consideration. Change is afoot so like it or not smoother more video like presentation are probably going to be the norm , unless a film maker desires a "film noir" look.

Some will/are undoubtedly at odds now with this aspect of what is "image fidelity". It is a period of transition and statement of what "should be" are conjecture and opinion on an individuals part.

Causing more than a few to be squeamish about things.biggrin.gif One would think those interested in image fidelity would embrace new aspects and possibilities of more realism. After all, last time I looked images in real life do not generally go jittering, stuttering, and juddering about. wink.gif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Yes, as I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post


Only an owner of a particular brand and model of TV can make the best assessment of what to do with settings like TruMotion or other motion interpolation features. .


And any "general rules" are , again, an opinion and prerogative of an individual. SOE surely would not be an intended effect necessarily, but now with digital sources in most theaters who is to say since gone is the film judder and other issues attributed to film projection. So any "rules" are arbitrary and may no longer apply in the case of any new " image fidelity" as now it is all up in the air again regarding motion characteristics of the cinema sources. There are now more and more caveats as the digital transition in cinema sources progresses.
What makes such purposeful misinformation particularly repugnant is it has been repeatedly promoted by sources who actually know better. The motion imaging industry standards bodies still set the standards, plus publish the engineering guidelines and recommended practices followed by content creators and program production professionals. The fundamental principles of preserving fidelity and artistic integrity still apply, no matter how many persistent forum trolls appear to resent them. Personal preference is always the right of every display owner. Image fidelity is only one of many possible objectives in display adjustment.

Many video hobbyists and TV manufacturers prefer to make things up as they go along, to appeal to individual or focus group preferences. In the context of this area of the forum (discussing video display calibration) the objective of image fidelity and display accuracy remain the fundamental and primary objectives. Maintaining clear definitions of terms prevents confusion. Sometimes the discussions veer off to describe techniques for achieving unique types of distortions that some viewers find personally enjoyable. Unfortunately, readers who come here to learn about authentic display calibration can get misled about what are legitimate video industry best practices. Just because features are added to a television design does not mean there will not be unintended consequences, or side effects that may alter the original look of a program as approved when mastered to video. When especially considering cinematic art, the authority of how it should look when it is converted to video is the producer of the program. I am baffled as to why this is so difficult for some forum members to comprehend and logically apply to display adjustment.
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Such rhetoric actually has made no contribution to the OPs query. I see purposeful negative dialog and misinformation in the form of clinging to long held opinion rather than embracing new improvements in cinema. Again, we see the tendency by some to be unsettled about an area of viewing cinema, such as this new transition to digital source display that has nothing to do with color accuracy or overall calibration. Ergo, more opinion and unnecessary commentary.
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post #24 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Some will/are undoubtedly at odds now with this aspect of what is "image fidelity". It is a period of transition and statement of what "should be" are conjecture and opinion on an individuals part.

Not really, Film Makers always have the option of going higher. The hobbit is going to be 48fps.

Playing back content at it's original framerate or a multiple of it's original framerate (I believe that theaters that still use film, project at 72hz with 24 frames) is the only choice for image fidelity. Otherwise you are choosing something based on preference. Not that choosing your own preference is wrong, it's just not calibration.

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post #25 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

I agree, the vertical jitter introduced by movie projectors also is and undesired effect. the titles at the end of a film were enough to cause a headache.

And any thoughts about judder free pans and other issues of film may now be a bygone consideration. Change is afoot so like it or not smoother more video like presentation are probably going to be the norm , unless a film maker desires a "film noir" look.

Some will/are undoubtedly at odds now with this aspect of what is "image fidelity". It is a period of transition and statement of what "should be" are conjecture and opinion on an individuals part.

Causing more than a few to be squeamish about things.biggrin.gifOne would think those interested in image fidelity would embrace new aspects and possibilities of more realism. After all, last time I looked images in real life do not generally go jittering, stuttering, and juddering about. wink.gif
"Film noir" is a dark filming style characteristically used in black and white crime movies. A particular frame rate and motion characteristics can be regarded as artistic elements desirable when composing a movie. It's the decision of the content creator what is appropriate for the look of an over all production or specific scene.

"Realism" is a specific artistic goal of a program producer/director/cinematographer team. It is not the traditional prerogative of the audience to dictate how a movie or video program is to look. Personally, I'm eagerly anticipating the completion of 'The Hobbit' and the 'Avatar' sequels, which are being shot in 48fps 3D. They are intended to be exhibited in the same format where possible. It has been reported that current digital cinema projectors can be easily converted for the higher frame rate by a firmware update. Higher native frame rates are reported to result in enhanced realism in the look of the program. James Cameron has stated that he considers higher native frame rates to be a better alternative to improving the look of cinema exhibition than higher resolutions. Early descriptions published by visitors to 'The Hobbit" production set, confirm that the dailies shown to them had a much more realistic appearance that enhanced the three dimensional look of the action. How soon 48fps/3D makes it to home video remains to be seen.
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Not really, Film Makers always have the option of going higher. The hobbit is going to be 48fps.
Playing back content at it's original framerate or a multiple of it's original framerate (I believe that theaters that still use film, project at 72hz with 24 frames) is the only choice for image fidelity. Otherwise you are choosing something based on preference. Not that choosing your own preference is wrong, it's just not calibration.


That may be, but it does not necessarily answer the OPs question of setting TruMotion or any other motion setting including an "Off" position since one TV may have one way of handling it and another something else. . . 2:3, 5:5 pulldown, etc. So, only the TV owner can decide what would be best.
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post #27 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

What makes such purposeful misinformation particularly repugnant is it has been repeatedly promoted by sources who actually know better.

Unfortunately, readers who come here to learn about authentic display calibration can get misled about what are legitimate video industry best practices. Just because features are added to a television design does not mean there will not be unintended consequences, or side effects that may alter the original look of a program as approved when mastered to video. When especially considering cinematic art, the authority of how it should look when it is converted to video is the producer of the program. I am baffled as to why this is so difficult for some forum members to comprehend and logically apply to display adjustment.

It seems the issue here is not a lack of understanding regarding the current standards for HDTVs and DVD/BD movies, but rather an intentional choice to disagree with or reject those standards in favor of something more subjectively pleasing to the individual.

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Not really, Film Makers always have the option of going higher. The hobbit is going to be 48fps.
Playing back content at it's original framerate or a multiple of it's original framerate (I believe that theaters that still use film, project at 72hz with 24 frames) is the only choice for image fidelity. Otherwise you are choosing something based on preference. Not that choosing your own preference is wrong, it's just not calibration.

exactly what my previous posts were stating, yet the message doesn't seem to have sunk in... image fidelity is not about opinions and personal preferences of end users; like George mentioned, the producer of the program is the one who makes such decisions
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post #28 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 03:13 PM
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So, only the TV owner can decide what would be best.

No, anyone who reads the owner manual can determine the correct setting.

As long as the manual has sufficient documentation and the controls aren't broken, there is no need to see the TV.

These controls have CORRECT settings in regards to image fidelity.

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post #29 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 03:19 PM
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No, anyone who reads the owner manual can determine the correct setting.
As long as the manual has sufficient documentation and the controls aren't broken, there is no need to see the TV.
These controls have CORRECT settings in regards to image fidelity.

sometimes, the controls are broken (like with TruMotion on some recent LGs and AMP on some recent Samsungs).... however, in those cases the off setting is the best choice

if everything works as described/intended, then avoiding motion smoothing while increasing motion resolution can be an alternative to just turning the thing off altogether

but motion smoothing is never desirable if image fidelity is the goal and so the only correct setting for dejudder is off/zero
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post #30 of 38 Old 07-06-2012, 03:51 PM
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Gentlemen. Why must we always end up like this when a simple question is asked? I believe the OP asked a general question about LGs TruMotion, which I answered and then commented on where and when I would, or would not use that feature. I do not believe that my original statement was erroneous or misleading, if that is what another poster was referring too. If we are too keep this particular forum strictly for the technical aspects of image fidelity, then we need to make that very clear to the new folks who stumble into here by accident with their questions, not knowing that this forum has no use, or tolerance, for opinions, assumptions, or personal preferences. I will have to go back and check but I think the OP only jumped back in with 4 more questions/comments before the thread got hi-jacked by some very strong personalities. I certainly hope he found what he was looking for. There is so much knowledge here that it's a shame that much is seemingly lost by those who are bent on proving someone else wrong. And I know where that statement is going to lead but so be it. Maybe this forum should be made private so that those who choose to participate know exactly what they are getting into and are at least forewarned and prepared. Can't we all just get along?
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