CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 112 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3331 of 4123 Old 08-03-2016, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
I'll take another look this evening. I don't print reports. That's for smart people.

Seems though that even with a .8 dE 2000, I can see some differences on the color checker with certain patches and presumably with only certain types of errors.

Just as a practical matter, is this theory correct? You really should use a stimulus level that nails the grayscale for the same level in terms of RGB and gamma. If its not 75% than something pretty close to it?

Wonder how this affects LUTs processing?


Is the point of using 75% stimulus to find the lowest stimulus level that provides acceptable results? My KURO calibrates much better and much faster using 100% stimulus I have found (except for 100% white for some reason).
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post #3332 of 4123 Old 08-03-2016, 04:31 PM
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Is the point of using 75% stimulus to find the lowest stimulus level that provides acceptable results? My KURO calibrates much better and much faster using 100% stimulus I have found (except for 100% white for some reason).
If a display was absolutely dead linear, I don't think it would matter. Problem is that consumer displays aren't. Many find that using 75% saturation and 75% stimulus provides a more accurate picture....than say using 100% saturation. Specifically, on my Samsung F8500 plasma, I use 80% saturation...which from what I gather is a bit of an odd bird but it does get me pretty good flesh tones. If I used 100% saturation of the F8500, skin tones tend to be a bit pale. I guess it becomes a question of compromise. What gives you the best picture for your taste. I prefer good skin tones as its pretty obvious when its not.

We watch a lot of satellite and OTA. Even with a good calibration, some content is mastered either over or under saturation. However, commercials look pretty good.
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post #3333 of 4123 Old 08-04-2016, 03:34 PM
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CalMAN 2016 5.7.1 Open Beta - Build: 2391 Released @ 04 August 2016

Release Notes

Added support for the Rhode and Schwarz VTC pattern generator (Ultimate, Professional, Expert, Studio)

Added support for the CRI CR-300 Spectro (Ultimate, Professional, Studio, Studio Lite, ColorMatch)

Added support for the Flanders Scientific BoxIO. This supports 1D and 3D LUTs. (Ultimate, Studio)

Resolved a file permissions issue in the C:\Programdata sub directory which could cause a number of problems including errors adding license keys, log file errors on startup, and similar.

Known Issue

Somehow Quick Analysis workflow got set to PC levels instead of Video levels. Heads up for anyone who might get caught unawares.

Download Links

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #3334 of 4123 Old 08-04-2016, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
If a display was absolutely dead linear, I don't think it would matter. Problem is that consumer displays aren't. Many find that using 75% saturation and 75% stimulus provides a more accurate picture....than say using 100% saturation. Specifically, on my Samsung F8500 plasma, I use 80% saturation...which from what I gather is a bit of an odd bird but it does get me pretty good flesh tones. If I used 100% saturation of the F8500, skin tones tend to be a bit pale. I guess it becomes a question of compromise. What gives you the best picture for your taste. I prefer good skin tones as its pretty obvious when its not.

We watch a lot of satellite and OTA. Even with a good calibration, some content is mastered either over or under saturation. However, commercials look pretty good.


I need to also qualify my statement that I'm referring to better results creating the 3D LUT in eeColor Box and then measuring the results. The brighter patterns not only significantly speed up readings of the color patches, but also improves the final results both in the reports and watching content. If 3D LUTs were not being employed to correct the signal, I might not be making these statements.
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post #3335 of 4123 Old 09-09-2016, 02:39 PM
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CalMAN 2016 5.7.1 Open Beta - Build: 2407 Released @ 09 September 2016

This build of CalMAN comes with a time bomb. It will stop functioning on Dec 1, 2016.

Release Notes

Resolved levels issue in the Quick Analysis workflow. (Introduced in Beta1)

Various minor workflow tweaks.

Added 1D LUT support for the Murideo Prisma LUT Box.

Added support to Auto load LUTs on the Murideo Prisma LUT Box

Added an entry in the SpectraCal Cube Generator for the Black Magic Teranex Mini. This is a 33pt .cube file.

Added HDR pattern generator support for the Lumagen Radiance Pro. This is pattern generator only. We do not yet recommend attempting to create HDR calibrations in the Radiance.

Added pattern generator support for the Flanders BoxIO. Loaded LUTs are not applied to the pattern generator. You cannot use the internal generator to verify LUTs. Because of this, it can be used to create a 1D or 3D LUT, but not both.

Note: I have been having some issues recently with writing LUTs directly into the BoxIO. Loading the same LUTs using their interface seems to be working properly. If you have a BoxIO, I would love to hear back to see if anyone else is experiencing this behavior.

Download Links

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #3336 of 4123 Old 09-19-2016, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
CalMAN 2016 5.7.1 Open Beta - Build: 2407 Released @ 09 September 2016

This build of CalMAN comes with a time bomb. It will stop functioning on Dec 1, 2016.

[/URL]
I have a paid version of CalMAN 2016 Enthusiast. What happens to that license if/when I download this most recent beta? I'm not in a hurry, but I can try out some of these newest features. Is it just better to wait until the public firmware release?
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post #3337 of 4123 Old 09-19-2016, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post
I have a paid version of CalMAN 2016 Enthusiast. What happens to that license if/when I download this most recent beta? I'm not in a hurry, but I can try out some of these newest features. Is it just better to wait until the public firmware release?
Nothing bad will happen, just this beta will not start if you try to run it after it's expiring date. Then you will uninstall it and install the latest public official release version.
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Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #3338 of 4123 Old 09-20-2016, 03:17 PM
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Simple & probably dumb question, as I prepare to do my first-ever calibration on my Samsung 51F5300: what should I set levels to?

My content source is an HTPC running MadVR, and I'll be using MadTPG as my pattern generator.

As recommended by Madshi, signal levels set at "full" across the chain:
MadVR - PC Levels (0-255) > Video Card (Intel HD 4400) - Quantization Range Full > Samsung Display - HDMI Black Level Full

This means BTB and WTW are clipped and I can't see anything below 16 or above 235 on test patterns, but the display shows correct HTPC video & applications.

In CalMan, should I set "luminance levels" at Video or PC? Does it make a difference, since I can't see BTB or WTW anyway?
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post #3339 of 4123 Old 09-20-2016, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Nothing bad will happen, just this beta will not start if you try to run it after it's expiring date. Then you will uninstall it and install the latest public official release version.
....or the more likely scenario is that you've replaced it with later betas and the beta expiration keeps getting pushed further into the future..
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post #3340 of 4123 Old 09-20-2016, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by oso101 View Post
Simple & probably dumb question, as I prepare to do my first-ever calibration on my Samsung 51F5300: what should I set levels to?

My content source is an HTPC running MadVR, and I'll be using MadTPG as my pattern generator.

As recommended by Madshi, signal levels set at "full" across the chain:
MadVR - PC Levels (0-255) > Video Card (Intel HD 4400) - Quantization Range Full > Samsung Display - HDMI Black Level Full

This means BTB and WTW are clipped and I can't see anything below 16 or above 235 on test patterns, but the display shows correct HTPC video & applications.

In CalMan, should I set "luminance levels" at Video or PC? Does it make a difference, since I can't see BTB or WTW anyway?
For video playback, you're expanding Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255), which means Bars 16 and below in AVS HD 709's Black Clipping actually contain 0, Bars 235 and above in White Clipping contain 255, and everything in between is scaled. Calman's pattern generator is not video playback, so it won't be affected by your video settings. Thus, you need to configure Calman to use PC Levels.

ETA: I just realized you're using MadTPG. I have no idea if Calman's settings affect it. What I wrote applies to Calman's built-in pattern window and the Client 3 generator.
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post #3341 of 4123 Old 09-21-2016, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
For video playback, you're expanding Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255), which means Bars 16 and below in AVS HD 709's Black Clipping actually contain 0, Bars 235 and above in White Clipping contain 255, and everything in between is scaled. Calman's pattern generator is not video playback, so it won't be affected by your video settings. Thus, you need to configure Calman to use PC Levels.

ETA: I just realized you're using MadTPG. I have no idea if Calman's settings affect it. What I wrote applies to Calman's built-in pattern window and the Client 3 generator.
So just to make sure I got this right, when calibrating a TV, we should NOT set the video level in calman to PC levels. Calman defaults to expand video levels to PC and I find that everything is off when I leave it that way. I'm using Mobil Forge as a pattern generator to set Grayscale and CMS and use the AVS HD 709 DVD to initially set the brightness and contrast.

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post #3342 of 4123 Old 09-21-2016, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
For video playback, you're expanding Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255), which means Bars 16 and below in AVS HD 709's Black Clipping actually contain 0, Bars 235 and above in White Clipping contain 255, and everything in between is scaled. Calman's pattern generator is not video playback, so it won't be affected by your video settings. Thus, you need to configure Calman to use PC Levels.

ETA: I just realized you're using MadTPG. I have no idea if Calman's settings affect it. What I wrote applies to Calman's built-in pattern window and the Client 3 generator.
Hmm... if I experiment with some grayscale tests with Calman at both Video & PC levels, if the tests generate identical graphs at both settings, am I safe to assume that I'm getting correct levels?

Maybe I should bring this question over to the MadVR forum.
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post #3343 of 4123 Old 09-21-2016, 09:30 AM
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Question about gamma when using Calman.

I noticed not too long ago that I could adjust step 10 in my Samsung F8500 plasma's white balance 10 step adjustments and effectively change gamma.

I presume that the gamma formula relies on the value at 100%. Problem is that you can manipulate the gamma value by changing step 10 without affecting how you come out of black.

What am I missing?
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post #3344 of 4123 Old 09-21-2016, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Question about gamma when using Calman.

I noticed not too long ago that I could adjust step 10 in my Samsung F8500 plasma's white balance 10 step adjustments and effectively change gamma.

I presume that the gamma formula relies on the value at 100%. Problem is that you can manipulate the gamma value by changing step 10 without affecting how you come out of black.

What am I missing?
Work down from 100%.

Because everything is relative to it, you need it set properly first, then adjust the rest of the curve.
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post #3345 of 4123 Old 09-21-2016, 11:35 AM
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So just to make sure I got this right, when calibrating a TV, we should NOT set the video level in calman to PC levels. Calman defaults to expand video levels to PC and I find that everything is off when I leave it that way. I'm using Mobil Forge as a pattern generator to set Grayscale and CMS and use the AVS HD 709 DVD to initially set the brightness and contrast.
I'm not familiar with Mobile Forge, but for the built-in generator and Client 3, Calman levels should normally agree with the levels the TV is expecting.

The exception would be if your video card is outputting YCbCr or RGB Limited (16-235), in which case, the card will compress everything to 16-235 right before putting it on the wire. Then Calman needs to output PC Levels for this final compression to work out. This card output option, which is distinct from the misleadingly similar video playback option, should basically never be used. It should be set to RGB Full (0-255), which is passthrough for the computer. I have to do this manually for my Nvidia card, as the driver stupidly sets it to RGB Limited for my TV. This is the worst way to achieve desktop/video levels consistency, as it tends to introduce banding in video due to the necessary levels round trip, and it of course compresses the desktop color range. If this consistency is your goal, it's best to use RGB Full throughout the chain.
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post #3346 of 4123 Old 09-21-2016, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oso101 View Post
Hmm... if I experiment with some grayscale tests with Calman at both Video & PC levels, if the tests generate identical graphs at both settings, am I safe to assume that I'm getting correct levels?

Maybe I should bring this question over to the MadVR forum.
That suggests to me that the Calman setting is having no effect on the MadTPG generator.
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post #3347 of 4123 Old 09-21-2016, 04:28 PM
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Calman + Lumagen + Autocal = Initially setting 100%, then it drops to 50%, then 25%. Then jumps back up to 90%, and works it's way back down to 5% when doing 21 Point. Problem here is, some sets work better setting the 100 and 30%, then working your way backup from the bottom.

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post #3348 of 4123 Old 09-29-2016, 04:19 PM
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Is there an upgrade from Calman 5 to Calman 2016?


- Rich

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post #3349 of 4123 Old 09-29-2016, 07:54 PM
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Is there an upgrade from Calman 5 to Calman 2016?


- Rich
Current Version is 5.7.1 Beta Build # 2407. Which is the current version for Calman for 2016.

UN65HU9000 with SEK-3500U in JS Mod Mode + Input at 1080P 60HZ 444. 4K separate input- Mine
UN75JU7100 / UN55HU7250 with SEK-3500U / UN32EH5300 (On floor and up for sale) / 2 X LG 55LHXs - wife's ! New addition UN40J5200AF
PN64F8500 still up for sale
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Current Version is 5.7.1 Beta Build # 2407. Which is the current version for Calman for 2016.


It has been a while since I used Calman, I think I need to buy maintenance to get the new version. I did not see an option on the web site.


- Rich

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post #3351 of 4123 Old 09-29-2016, 08:52 PM
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It has been a while since I used Calman, I think I need to buy maintenance to get the new version. I did not see an option on the web site.


- Rich
I was confused too when I went to renew my license. They're calling it "All Access"

Before renewing, you might want to double check to be sure that a license upgrade wouldn't make more sense for you.

http://calman.spectracal.com/store/c..._Products.html
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post #3352 of 4123 Old 09-30-2016, 05:16 AM
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I was confused too when I went to renew my license. They're calling it "All Access"

Before renewing, you might want to double check to be sure that a license upgrade wouldn't make more sense for you.

http://calman.spectracal.com/store/c..._Products.html

Thanks. I have enthusiast so that looks perfect.

Thanks,


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Try downloading and see if it will install:

http://spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=135&t=6073

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post #3354 of 4123 Old 10-10-2016, 12:28 PM
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I have a question that I just can't get to the bottom of and I hope that someone here has the answer.
I have an LG 55E6 and i'm using Calman Enthusiast and a C6 meter to calibrate the set. The question is, when I do a 2 point calibration using 30 and 100% in calman, I can get both almost perfect and when I then go to the 21pt Grayscale work flow, the 100% is perfect just as I set it in the 2 pt work flow BUT when I look at the 30% in the 21 pt work flow, it's not reading the same DE as in the 2 pt like the 100% is reading. It's reading a couple of points higher delta DE in the 21 pt vs the almost perfect, "0.1" delta DE in the 30% 2 pt.

Why does this happen? Shouldn't they read the same before making any other changes? I'm using 1886 gamma.

Thanks,
John

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post #3355 of 4123 Old 10-10-2016, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I have a question that I just can't get to the bottom of and I hope that someone here has the answer.
I have an LG 55E6 and i'm using Calman Enthusiast and a C6 meter to calibrate the set. The question is, when I do a 2 point calibration using 30 and 100% in calman, I can get both almost perfect and when I then go to the 21pt Grayscale work flow, the 100% is perfect just as I set it in the 2 pt work flow BUT when I look at the 30% in the 21 pt work flow, it's not reading the same DE as in the 2 pt like the 100% is reading. It's reading a couple of points higher delta DE in the 21 pt vs the almost perfect, "0.1" delta DE in the 30% 2 pt.

Why does this happen? Shouldn't they read the same before making any other changes? I'm using 1886 gamma.

Thanks,
John
Are you using the 1886 gamma point in calman too or are you using a power of 2.4 or what are you using as a target in calman?
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post #3356 of 4123 Old 10-10-2016, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I have a question that I just can't get to the bottom of and I hope that someone here has the answer.
I have an LG 55E6 and i'm using Calman Enthusiast and a C6 meter to calibrate the set. The question is, when I do a 2 point calibration using 30 and 100% in calman, I can get both almost perfect and when I then go to the 21pt Grayscale work flow, the 100% is perfect just as I set it in the 2 pt work flow BUT when I look at the 30% in the 21 pt work flow, it's not reading the same DE as in the 2 pt like the 100% is reading. It's reading a couple of points higher delta DE in the 21 pt vs the almost perfect, "0.1" delta DE in the 30% 2 pt.

Why does this happen? Shouldn't they read the same before making any other changes? I'm using 1886 gamma.

Thanks,
John
The 100% IRE should always stay the same after setting.
The 30% IRE should be the same, but,
The LG OLED's have ASBL, that means the screen will dim after about 60 seconds or so with a static image. Best to turn off when calibrating.
Your meter could be drifting a little.
You set your 30 IRE before setting the 100 IRE.

With the OLED's infinite black level. You may want to try a power 2.2 or 2.4.

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post #3357 of 4123 Old 10-11-2016, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I have a question that I just can't get to the bottom of and I hope that someone here has the answer.
I have an LG 55E6 and i'm using Calman Enthusiast and a C6 meter to calibrate the set. The question is, when I do a 2 point calibration using 30 and 100% in calman, I can get both almost perfect and when I then go to the 21pt Grayscale work flow, the 100% is perfect just as I set it in the 2 pt work flow BUT when I look at the 30% in the 21 pt work flow, it's not reading the same DE as in the 2 pt like the 100% is reading. It's reading a couple of points higher delta DE in the 21 pt vs the almost perfect, "0.1" delta DE in the 30% 2 pt.

Why does this happen? Shouldn't they read the same before making any other changes? I'm using 1886 gamma.

Thanks,
John
It's likely because you aren't reading black (or calculating gamma) in the two-point, while in the 21-point, you are. White and black both figure into the gamma calculation. IIRC, the 2-point only shows whether those points are at D65 and does not calculate gamma.

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post #3358 of 4123 Old 10-11-2016, 02:05 AM
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Variation over successive runs can be pretty typical. How much can depend on the technology and weakest link, ABL and other horrors.


When you adjusted the 100% did you return to 30% and retest? Common mistake not to re-measure.


Although most displays(actually nearly all) react differently to fast 11/21 point measurements than to static images when making adjustments, no matter what the effects of ABL or other technologies.
Most visuals are fast changing so actually makes more sense to make changes in response to 11/21 measurement runs. Actually most pro's have relegated 2 point 30/80 or 30/100 only adjustments to the bin of the past. It is better practice to adjust the "2 point" in relation 11/21 point measurements, mainly because you can observe 0~100% at 11/21 steps. this allows for far better adjustments to be made.

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post #3359 of 4123 Old 10-11-2016, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
It's likely because you aren't reading black (or calculating gamma) in the two-point, while in the 21-point, you are. White and black both figure into the gamma calculation. IIRC, the 2-point only shows whether those points are at D65 and does not calculate gamma.
Unless you manually override the HCFR colour difference formula, the grey scale delta-E is calculated based only on the xy values and not the Y value, so the delta-E would be independent of the gamma.

[EDIT] Please ignore above. I was thinking of HCFR when the OP was using CalMAN.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 10-11-2016 at 07:03 AM.
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post #3360 of 4123 Old 10-11-2016, 06:32 AM
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Thanks for all of the feedback. After reading all of them, I think the answer is
"It's likely because you aren't reading black (or calculating gamma) in the two-point, while in the 21-point, you are. White and black both figure into the gamma calculation. IIRC, the 2-point only shows whether those points are at D65 and does not calculate gamma."

I'm using gamma 1886 so that calculation is probably making the change.

I think what i'm going to do going forward is just use the 2pt to get the 100% in line then just do the 21-pt and leave the 2pt low adjustment alone.

BTW, I am aware of the ABL and and using that feature in Calman to changes the screen luminance every 30 seconds to defeat it. I also found using Chadb's method of setting OLED to 100 then adjusting the contrast to set the overall luminance works well since I'm in a well lit room and prefer the contrast set to 73.

The only other thoughts I had with the OLED calibration is as follows:
I found that I have to use an 18% window to get this set to calibrate properly and after calibrating for a couple of hours, I notice a faint "burn in" on the screen where the pattern window is. This burn in goes away after the set is turned off but can't that effect the calibration as well? It seems to me that when you first start calibrating the screen has no burn in and it's in one state then as the burn in continues the state of the screen is changing so i'm having to think this must change what the meter is reading but i'm not sure by how much.

Any thoughts on this one?

John
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