CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 2459 Old 12-01-2012, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Would anyone be able to tell me (in this thread or via PM) how to calibrate 3D on a Panasonic screen if available? I've done the 2 point in the service menu for 2D, but I don't know if there's a place to be able to calibrate 3D.

With your set you would have to use another color temp like normal, do you have a non contact meter ? How I have seen it done is using a non contact meter with the tv in 3d mode, glasses taped to front of meter in synch of course. That is how my GT25 and ST30 were calibrated in 3d, the ST30 has those custom settings in the user menu so it made it easier for Chad to do it.

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post #542 of 2459 Old 12-01-2012, 08:43 AM
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Thanks Chunon. I will use cool then, and I understand why this will take so long to calibrate now. smile.gif
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post #543 of 2459 Old 12-01-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Thanks Chunon. I will use cool then, and I understand why this will take so long to calibrate now. smile.gif

One other detail Chad had some special 3d test patterns he generated from his signal generator but don't think that is mandatory. I don't believe you will achieve perfection but that mode can be improved markedly. Let us know how it comes out smile.gif

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post #544 of 2459 Old 12-01-2012, 03:25 PM
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Will do. Should I need to tape active shutter glasses to the meter? The 3D glasses are tinted gray, right? so wouldn't brightness just need to be increased to compensate for the "shades?"
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post #545 of 2459 Old 12-01-2012, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Will do. Should I need to tape active shutter glasses to the meter? The 3D glasses are tinted gray, right? so wouldn't brightness just need to be increased to compensate for the "shades?"

Yes that is the way Chad did my sets. I would assume you are doing a complete independent grey-scale calibration ? Basically an entire separate calibration using the cool temperature setting. White balance will be out of whack I can almost guarantee. You might try high panel brightness also I found medium still a little dark on my ST30.

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post #546 of 2459 Old 12-01-2012, 07:04 PM
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What would be the best workflow or settings in Calman? I tried using plasma (since my TV is plasma), but I only get what look like normal readings on 30 IRE but 80 IRE is crazy, even if I read 80 IRE on the display but using the 30 spot in the workflow it looks normal, but if I use that 80 IRE spot in the workflow for 80 IRE, blue is either super high or not on the chart at all. Also, should the active shutter glasses be synced to the display since they are synced when viewing or does this affect calibration?
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post #547 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

What would be the best workflow or settings in Calman? I tried using plasma (since my TV is plasma), but I only get what look like normal readings on 30 IRE but 80 IRE is crazy, even if I read 80 IRE on the display but using the 30 spot in the workflow it looks normal, but if I use that 80 IRE spot in the workflow for 80 IRE, blue is either super high or not on the chart at all. Also, should the active shutter glasses be synced to the display since they are synced when viewing or does this affect calibration?

Yes they need to be synced just like you are watching 3d, Maybe Chad will weigh in here ? I've only watched him do the calibration haven't done it myself.

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post #548 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Will do. Should I need to tape active shutter glasses to the meter? The 3D glasses are tinted gray, right? so wouldn't brightness just need to be increased to compensate for the "shades?"

How you attach the glasses to the meter depends on the shape of your meter... you might need tape, but rubber bands might work in many cases.

The glasses are NOT tinted gray... most are slightly green and are a bit darker than clear. Each different brand/model of 3D glasses seem to have a different color to them. That means if you have 4 different pair of 3D glasses, you'll see 4 different renditions of the same image because each pair will alter gray and color differently. It's always best to use the same brand/model of 3D glasses for all viewers so everybody gets the same calibrated images. The glasses also have to be turned on and stay on for the entire 3D calibration session.

One problem you WILL have... because the 3D glasses are darker and because half the frames will be "blocked" from getting to the meter, darker shades of gray will get difficult to measure much sooner than when measuring 2D. In fact, if you can measure 10% with your meter in 2D, 30% is likely to be your lower limit for 3D calibration and if you can only get down to 20% reliably in 2D mode, you're going to be able to get to about 40% in 3D mode.

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post #549 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 12:37 PM
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We recomend profiling the meter with and without glasses and measuring without glasses.

The light issue Doug is describing can be extreme especially for projectors.

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post #550 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 01:43 PM
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By calibrating only the 2D, by what rough percentage would the 3D be Off? 1 to 3 %? 10 to 30%? If 1 to 3%, would this really affect the average viewer? If 10 to 30%, I could then see that the 3D would definitely have to be calibrated.
Would Plasma, LED/LCD and Projectors have different %'s?
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post #551 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

By calibrating only the 2D, by what rough percentage would the 3D be Off? 1 to 3 %? 10 to 30%? If 1 to 3%?

3D modes are usually completely separate and don't share any settings. If you calibrate only 2D, 3D is completely uncalibrated.

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post #552 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

3D modes are usually completely separate and don't share any settings. If you calibrate only 2D, 3D is completely uncalibrated.

Newbie here re 3D calibrating:
How do you separate the 2D calibration from the 3D? I only see one set of IREs. The only thing I saw that I couldn't see to calibrate was the Service Menu White Balance IREs. No matter what values I put in there, the Meter never fluctuated. I noticed someone mentioned about changing the White Balance from Warm, to Medium or Cool. That changes to a new set of IREs?
A secret Menu for 3D calibration I don't know about?
Like I said, a Newbie.
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post #553 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 07:34 PM
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The specifics depend on the TV. But usually when you feed the set a 3D signal (or force the TV to think it's getting one) the mode will flip to 3D and you'll see that all the menu items have flipped over to their "3D mode" values.

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post #554 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The specifics depend on the TV. But usually when you feed the set a 3D signal (or force the TV to think it's getting one) the mode will flip to 3D and you'll see that all the menu items have flipped over to their "3D mode" values.

Wife away this week, will have to check this out, and of course see what's there.
Thanks - haven't been too concerned since we rarely watch 3D, and when we do it was looking pretty good. Always assumed it was my great calibrating skills re the 2D. No wait, I lie, on the 3D set, I only did AutoCal with Calman 5 and the iScan Duo for Greyscale and CMS. I only calibrated the Service Menu White Balances.
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post #555 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 08:26 PM
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When you go to calibrate 3D you should use a color temp that you're not using for 2D. For my TV I don't use cool so I will use that for 3D mode. After all, it's just a name, you can calibrate them to whatever color temp or reference you want to. I have both Warm and Normal calibrated to D65 in 2D. I noticed that white because almost purple upon entering 3D mode in order to compensate for the lens filtering. As Browne said, I've noticed I can make changes and nothing really changes when I take a reading. So should I increase exposure time to make for only getting half a picture? And is there anything I can do to get better readings? I have my tripod set up a few inches away from my tv with my i1 Display Pro mounted and active shutter glasses taped in front of the meter's lens. Should I cover the TV and meter with a blackout curtain even if my room is dark? I tried with and without and it didn't seem to affect readings at all.

Joel, does Calman expect certain readings at certain IREs or measure differently for different IREs? I noticed sometimes when I take readings with 2 point white balance, that the 30 IRE will read differently than 80 IRE regardless of what IRE I actually have displayed and am taking a measurement of.
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post #556 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 08:48 PM
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Just came to my mind:
Put 3D Movie on to trigger the sets 3D system on the set. OK, set now running in 3D.
But, now I go to calibrate using my iScan Duo Patterns - won't this kick off the 3D on the set?
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post #557 of 2459 Old 12-02-2012, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

When you go to calibrate 3D you should use a color temp that you're not using for 2D.
Many TVs have completely different settings, so you wouldn't need to re-purpose color temp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Joel, does Calman expect certain readings at certain IREs or measure differently for different IREs? I noticed sometimes when I take readings with 2 point white balance, that the 30 IRE will read differently than 80 IRE regardless of what IRE I actually have displayed and am taking a measurement of.

Each reading is completely independent. The meter doesn't get any hints on what to expect, the meter handling code starts from scratch for each reading.

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post #558 of 2459 Old 12-03-2012, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The specifics depend on the TV. But usually when you feed the set a 3D signal (or force the TV to think it's getting one) the mode will flip to 3D and you'll see that all the menu items have flipped over to their "3D mode" values.

With the VT50 all you need to do is hit the 3D button on the remote to get the VT50 in 3D mode.

Question, when I am profiling my C6 with a I1Pro 2 using Panasonic 3D shutter glasses for the I1Pro 2 and then profile to my C6 using no glasses on it, I keep getting a warning message that says the profile is not within a recommended range. Is this normal because the I1pro meter has the glasses and the C6 has non???

ss
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post #559 of 2459 Old 12-03-2012, 04:09 AM
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You would profile your meter when you do the 2 D calibration and use the same profile for 3D, the light source inside the TV has not changed.
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post #560 of 2459 Old 12-03-2012, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

With the VT50 all you need to do is hit the 3D button on the remote to get the VT50 in 3D mode.
Question, when I am profiling my C6 with a I1Pro 2 using Panasonic 3D shutter glasses for the I1Pro 2 and then profile to my C6 using no glasses on it, I keep getting a warning message that says the profile is not within a recommended range. Is this normal because the I1pro meter has the glasses and the C6 has non???
ss

Yes, it's because the glasses cause a MASSIVE shift, so the profile is much larger than we would expect for normal profiling.

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post #561 of 2459 Old 12-03-2012, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

You would profile your meter when you do the 2 D calibration and use the same profile for 3D, the light source inside the TV has not changed.

Actually since the glasses aren't neutral density they effect the spectrum differently at different points.

If they didn't effect the spectral signature, then the picture would just be darker, but not shifted in-regard to chromaticity.

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post #562 of 2459 Old 12-03-2012, 04:40 PM
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Set LG 55LV9500 to 3D. Push Menu button to go to setups. Window comes on screen - do you want to cancel 3D to go to Menu. OK or Cancel. OK, now how do you calibrate in this case?
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post #563 of 2459 Old 12-06-2012, 05:30 AM
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I tried calibrating 3D again last night, but I'm still having difficulty. When I finished my attempt, I realized I'm not playing back my AVS calibration disk from my desktop which is using Cal PC calibrated to D65 for 2D. Will this be a problem trying to calibrate because video is set to 0-255 with YCC 4:4:4 (16-235) output? Also, Sotti, my old ATI HD3850 did not have the option for 0-255 for video playback, but my new HD7750 does have that option now, so it must be a newer implementation in the software compared to the CCC 11.4 that I was using before.

It still seems that I can get decent readings at 30 and 40 IRE but 70, 80, and greater IRE don't read well at all. With 50-60 IRE I get low blue readings and high red and green, but when I change to 70 and higher IRE I get extreme blue and extremely low red and green. If anyone is familiar with Panasonic TVs or 3D active shutter glasses in general, would be be strange to have Blue Drive at a really low value? I have red and green in the upper ranges, both Fn, but I had blue down at Cn. But even when I cranked blue up to Fn it didn't read any higher than before.

It seemed to help setting 2D-3D to separate left and right images and syncing the glasses and making for the transmitting lens is in front of the proper frame. I have my glasses taped to an i1 Display Pro on a tripod about 18-24" away. I also noticed it's difficult to tell a difference between my 2D WB calibrations and my attempted 3D WB calibration (wearing glasses). Does Panasonic offset the selected color temp when it enters 3D? As I've mentioned before, the only way I can do WB calibration is through the service menu repurposing one of the color temps (cool).
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post #564 of 2459 Old 12-06-2012, 07:37 PM
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I was able to achieve a reasonable calibration tonight for 3D. It took a long time because Cool Temp has such a high blue level and it seems with Panasonic Active Shutter glasses there needs to a low level because of the color shift of the lenses.



I think this will be the best I can get and I think I'm okay with the numbers. Most of my viewing is 2D anyway, but at least I can have peace of mind that 3D should be all right.
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post #565 of 2459 Old 12-06-2012, 10:32 PM
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^^^^

Why not simply use your BD player to play back your AVS disc for the window patterns. Why not use 2.2.2 and 16/235.
Also why have your meter so far away from your display, and try different window sizes.
Also beware that your Panasonic can shift from 3D to 2D mode, there by changing anything you have pre set in whatever 3D mode you are using back to a 2D mode settings.
Experiment with different color temp modes
imo you should start over and keep how you setup things as simple and direct as possible, stay with the basics until you get a good understanding on how this all works.
Also beware of IR from your window patterns, because IR from window patterns can and will put your new calibration settings off.

Service menu, bad idea.

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post #566 of 2459 Old 12-07-2012, 02:50 AM
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Hello,

I own Calman Enthusiast and a Pana VT50 EU model. Normally I have no problem customizing workflows
for my needs, but this time I can't figure out how to do.
The VT50 has problems with the in-between values (e.g. 25, 35, etc) in greyscale when doing 10pt
calibration, and it's getting worse as higher the contrast setting is. Due to the light cap (max. 23fL) I need
high contrast setting to get a half-way resonable picture.
So I want to follow Chad B's suggestion doing 2pt cal at 20% and 100% first than 10pt, what should avoid this issue.
Calman offers 30/80, 30/100 and 30/peak white. Can someone please give me a short "how to" creating or
modifying a workflow for 2pt cal. at 20/100.


2nd question (may sound stupid):
I want to calibrate for TV broadcasts. In Europe common is 720p50 and 1080i25, Pana output is 100Hz.
My receiver can be forced to a fixed output frequency. Can I use the AVSHD709 pattern which are 23,976Hz
and force my receiver to 50Hz output?
I also could use the calibration done with the BD player, cause TV output is 96Hz (when input 24Hz)
which is quite close to 100. But results slightly differ to 100Hz and I want to get it perfect.
Any advice?


3rd:
what pattern to use for calibration to BT.601 (DVD), any free source?


thanks in advance
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post #567 of 2459 Old 12-07-2012, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

^^^^
Why not simply use your BD player to play back your AVS disc for the window patterns. Why not use 2.2.2 and 16/235.
Also why have your meter so far away from your display, and try different window sizes.
Also beware that your Panasonic can shift from 3D to 2D mode, there by changing anything you have pre set in whatever 3D mode you are using back to a 2D mode settings.
Experiment with different color temp modes
imo you should start over and keep how you setup things as simple and direct as possible, stay with the basics until you get a good understanding on how this all works.
Also beware of IR from your window patterns, because IR from window patterns can and will put your new calibration settings off.
Service menu, bad idea.



With the UT50 the only place to adjust white balance is in the service menu. In the Calman walkthrough (for v.4) is says 18 inches is typical so the active shutter glasses can still talk to the TV. Every time I shut the TV off to go back to 3D and check setting changes I have have turn the glasses off and on again to re-sync with the TV. With the UT50 since the only place to adjust white balance is the service menu I only have 3 color temps (options) available for white balance. I used warm for cinema mode and normal for custom mode, that's why I'm using cool for 3D white balance. In my graph above green is pretty heavy on the low end, if I cut green would it be problematic at the high end because green is already at max for its high end? When I check the brightness pattern it's basically green bars flashing on the screen instead of black/gray so I know it needs to be cut. I also learned I get the best results by using "Manual 3D" mode and having left and right images separate, that helped a lot in getting good readings.
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post #568 of 2459 Old 12-07-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

I was able to achieve a reasonable calibration tonight for 3D. It took a long time because Cool Temp has such a high blue level and it seems with Panasonic Active Shutter glasses there needs to a low level because of the color shift of the lenses.

I think this will be the best I can get and I think I'm okay with the numbers. Most of my viewing is 2D anyway, but at least I can have peace of mind that 3D should be all right.

That looks pretty good imo, pm me and I will share what my calman looked like after 3d calibration by Chad, it is far from perfect from a chart standpoint but it looks great in all the 3d stuff I have viewed.

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post #569 of 2459 Old 12-07-2012, 04:53 PM
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Weird Chart - Did you not get RGB at 100IRE to the 100 line before starting the rest of the calibration?
90IRE, another weird one. I usually have to raise Green to bring down a spike at 90. Yours is showing a dip, which usually means I have to drop Green to bring the dip up. But your Green is already down. Maybe on your set, the opposite had to be done?
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post #570 of 2459 Old 12-07-2012, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

That looks pretty good imo, pm me and I will share what my calman looked like after 3d calibration by Chad, it is far from perfect from a chart standpoint but it looks great in all the 3d stuff I have viewed.

I thought so, too. I will tinker with dropping the green brightness and see if that removes the excess green without affecting green contrast. I figured that it's fairly unscientific having the meter behind the active shutter glasses because of the way light can pass through improperly because it's taped on, but I think a decent readings at 30/40 IRE and 70/80 IRE are a good sign that white balance is fairly well calibrated for an amateur/enthusiast. I will be interested to see what CalPC Autocal can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Weird Chart - Did you not get RGB at 100IRE to the 100 line before starting the rest of the calibration?
90IRE, another weird one. I usually have to raise Green to bring down a spike at 90. Yours is showing a dip, which usually means I have to drop Green to bring the dip up. But your Green is already down. Maybe on your set, the opposite had to be done?

Yeah, but since it's for 3D through the active shutter lens, I'm not too concerned. I was thinking maybe those green dips might have had something to do with peak/near peak white and the green being affected from the lens.
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