CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 2442 Old 01-02-2013, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Don't like the results from the C6 - will only profile off an i1Pro. What Menu Option are you picking for the Meter? Meter was crazy originally because I made the wrong Menu choice.

I profile it against my i1pro so thats good.

I have the original menu options.
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post #722 of 2442 Old 01-02-2013, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Both grayscale and gamut work on the GT50. There is a still a bit of an issue having to set brightness and contrast to default before running autocal, but we are working on that.

Thanks Sotti. So I'd have to do Gamma manually?
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post #723 of 2442 Old 01-02-2013, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cobhc2010 View Post

Thanks Sotti. So I'd have to do Gamma manually?

If you want to get the results to be well beyond visual perception than you'll want to touch it up after you re-adjust brightness and contrast. The results of just an autocal are very good, but changing the brightness and contrast causes our calibrated points to measure slightly differently. So you can re-tweak them manually, or just leave the small error.

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post #724 of 2442 Old 01-02-2013, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

If you want to get the results to be well beyond visual perception than you'll want to touch it up after you re-adjust brightness and contrast. The results of just an autocal are very good, but changing the brightness and contrast causes our calibrated points to measure slightly differently. So you can re-tweak them manually, or just leave the small error.

I understand that some touch up will be required, but wondered if the Autocal did gamma alongside grayscale.
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post #725 of 2442 Old 01-02-2013, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cobhc2010 View Post

I understand that some touch up will be required, but wondered if the Autocal did gamma alongside grayscale.

Oh yes, absolutely.

When dealing with two point systems you might separate grayscale out since 2 point controls don't effect gamma and 2 point systems nearly always have a separate gamma control. But when we look at multi-point grayscale data we always show the information to calibrate both the gamma and the grayscale. So our autocal works the same way.

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post #726 of 2442 Old 01-02-2013, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Oh yes, absolutely.
When dealing with two point systems you might separate grayscale out since 2 point controls don't effect gamma and 2 point systems nearly always have a separate gamma control. But when we look at multi-point grayscale data we always show the information to calibrate both the gamma and the grayscale. So our autocal works the same way.

That's good to know. I have Calman Basic at the moment, and last night I was having trouble getting the dE of 75% gray less than 3 even though the individual rgb and cmy luminance matched the targets quite closely. I also appear to have a problem with gamma at the high end as 80-100% seem to be a major pain to keep level. Any ideas?
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post #727 of 2442 Old 01-03-2013, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Calby View Post

I profile it against my i1pro so thats good.
I have the original menu options.

Try some of the other Meter Menu Options. One of them may be more suitable to your setup. Originally I was told to go LCD Direct View (Wide Gamut White LED), which turned out to be wrong , (And the Meter did wild and weird things) when LCD Direct View (White LED) was correct for my system.
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post #728 of 2442 Old 01-04-2013, 02:01 PM
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Does CalMan offer an OPTION calibrating for 9300K? I know 6500K is the standard and I've done a calibration for that using ColorHCFR, but ColorHCFR doesn't have an option for 9300K calibration. (I've heard CalMan is better overall than ColorHCFR, so I figured I'd buy a basic license for it and give it a whirl if it had this option.)

Anyhow, I'm sure you're asking WHY 9300K? Well, I'd like to have an alternate picture mode on my TV for 9300K for watching Japanese television. My fiance is Japanese and sometimes watches Japanese dramas and movies. In Japan, the standard white point is 9300K, so I figured I'd match it using a different scene setting on my TV.

Sometimes, I do some gaming too, both import and domestic, and games typically look better through 9300K than 6500K.

I mean, of course, we can just set the color temperature to "Cool" on that scene setting, but I'd really like to do the gray scale if I could as well.

Thanks in advance for the answer!

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #729 of 2442 Old 01-04-2013, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Does CalMan offer an OPTION calibrating for 9300K? I know 6500K is the standard and I've done a calibration for that using ColorHCFR, but ColorHCFR doesn't have an option for 9300K calibration. (I've heard CalMan is better overall than ColorHCFR, so I figured I'd buy a basic license for it and give it a whirl if it had this option.)
Anyhow, I'm sure you're asking WHY 9300K? Well, I'd like to have an alternate picture mode on my TV for 9300K for watching Japanese television. My fiance is Japanese and sometimes watches Japanese dramas and movies. In Japan, the standard white point is 9300K, so I figured I'd match it using a different scene setting on my TV.
Sometimes, I do some gaming too, both import and domestic, and games typically look better through 9300K than 6500K.
I mean, of course, we can just set the color temperature to "Cool" on that scene setting, but I'd really like to do the gray scale if I could as well.
Thanks in advance for the answer!

Yes you can. See here:


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post #730 of 2442 Old 01-04-2013, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Quain View Post

Yes you can. See here:
You're the man! Thanks again!

That's supported in Basic, right? I was a little confused on the webpage by the Gamut Target Editor being an Enthusiast feature. At first, I was thinking that meant just the ability to not use 6500K, but I'm guessing the Target Editor is to create your OWN targets.

Going to have to buy it next week as I spent a lot of money shuffling TVs and also other personal things over the holidays. C'mon, paycheck! smile.gif

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #731 of 2442 Old 01-04-2013, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Well, I'd like to have an alternate picture mode on my TV for 9300K for watching Japanese television. My fiance is Japanese and sometimes watches Japanese dramas and movies. In Japan, the standard white point is 9300K, so I figured I'd match it using a different scene setting on my TV.r!

The japanese 9300K thing is a myth.

If japanese content was mastered at 9300K it would look incredibly red on a properly calibrated display. Not that the consumer displays sold in japan aren't overly blue, but so are most displays here.

If you want to have a 9300K calibration though, that option is available for basic users.

And you are correct the gamut editor allows you to create custom gamut targets.

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post #732 of 2442 Old 01-04-2013, 02:41 PM
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Thank you both, I appreciate the input. smile.gif

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #733 of 2442 Old 01-05-2013, 01:03 AM
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Just got a DVDO Duo and have a stupid question: Which level o Calman 5 do I need to do an AutoCal with the Duo? How about whiich level do I need to use the Duo as a pattern Generator? I have Calman 5 control. Which features of the Duo will I unlock by going to enthusiast? Thanks!
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post #734 of 2442 Old 01-05-2013, 07:29 AM
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Did the ability to manually enter a correction table in Calman 5 ever become a reality ? I remember reading you guys were working on a tool or update to allow that.

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post #735 of 2442 Old 01-05-2013, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

Just got a DVDO Duo and have a stupid question: Which level o Calman 5 do I need to do an AutoCal with the Duo? How about whiich level do I need to use the Duo as a pattern Generator? I have Calman 5 control. Which features of the Duo will I unlock by going to enthusiast? Thanks!
What I can see it should work with control licence...
http://store.spectracal.com/support/hardware-support.html

GT-i9300 CM10.1
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post #736 of 2442 Old 01-05-2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by hrc4u View Post

What I can see it should work with control licence...
http://store.spectracal.com/support/hardware-support.html
GT-i9300 CM10.1

Doh! Thanks!
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post #737 of 2442 Old 01-05-2013, 10:08 AM
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What about the ability to import/export grayscale/gamma/gamut tables?
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post #738 of 2442 Old 01-05-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Does CalMan offer an OPTION calibrating for 9300K? I know 6500K is the standard and I've done a calibration for that using ColorHCFR, but ColorHCFR doesn't have an option for 9300K calibration. (I've heard CalMan is better overall than ColorHCFR, so I figured I'd buy a basic license for it and give it a whirl if it had this option.)
Anyhow, I'm sure you're asking WHY 9300K? Well, I'd like to have an alternate picture mode on my TV for 9300K for watching Japanese television. My fiance is Japanese and sometimes watches Japanese dramas and movies. In Japan, the standard white point is 9300K, so I figured I'd match it using a different scene setting on my TV.
Sometimes, I do some gaming too, both import and domestic, and games typically look better through 9300K than 6500K.
I mean, of course, we can just set the color temperature to "Cool" on that scene setting, but I'd really like to do the gray scale if I could as well.
Thanks in advance for the answer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The japanese 9300K thing is a myth.

I'm not so sure about that.. this may be from the past.. though with all the translating that needs to be done, it also seems like from some document translations used there is also talk about CCT 9300K for lighting in productions to. But, Sony professional broadcast monitors have 9300K options - Actually several Professional Level Monitors have options for D55, D65 and D93.

Some References:
  • ARIB Technical documents reference D93 9305K, one Here .
  • From this 2000 Sony Monitor Catalog (Japan D93 NTSC- See Page 92).
  • From Journal of Electronic Imaging (See from Page 2).
  • From Charles Poyntons book Digital Video and HDTV Algorithms and Interfaces ("9300K is common in Asia (e.g., in studio monitors in Japan" on Page 224, "Studio video standards in Japan call for viewing with a 9300 K White reference: this is apparently due to a cultural preference regarding the reproduction of skin tones" on Page 255, "9300 K (discouraged but used in studio standards in Japan) - x= 0.283, y= 0.298, z = 0.419, U' = 0.1884, v' = .4463 on Page 225) - Poynton does not mention D93.
  • From this ITU Document (See Page 2 for second quote text below).
Quote:
In ARIB of Japan, a Task Group on Flat Panel Display (FPD-TG) was established to set up the user requirement for flat panel display, using it as an HDTV master monitor in a TV program production environment (example: studio, editing room, outside broadcast van, etc.) in June 2004. This is not only because the picture quality of flat panel displays has recently greatly improved, but also because CRT master monitors will no longer be supplied in the near future.

~

There were two differences: one is that the room was made very dark and the other is the colour temperature of CRT and LCD was set to 9300K (D93). Because it was thought that the subjective assessment test should preferably be conducted under the same viewing conditions as those in the actual TV programme production environment at Japanese TV stations, considering that the purpose of this test was to evaluate the adequacy of picture quality of LCD as a master monitor.



.

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post #739 of 2442 Old 01-05-2013, 01:32 PM
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It's not a myth, I just didn't want to start an argument. NTSC-J is defined clearly as 9300K.

Simple Google search of NTSC-J 9300K will reveal all sorts of technical documents and websites, a lot in Japanese, on this subject. As well as companies that produce professional monitors calibrated for 9300K specifically for Japan.

A lot of Japanese HD broadcasts are also produced using the 9300K white point.

Anyway! Not trying to start an argument. I really appreciate the info and can't wait to try out CalMan later!

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #740 of 2442 Old 01-05-2013, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

It's not a myth

I have also heard about this stuff in the past from my Australian users, it seems like there are many down under who watch content from japan.... unlike North America, UK Europe, Australia models are usually directly manufactured in Japan / asia and brought in to. I just think most here including Professionals have no direct knowledge about the past standards in Japan.

I also saw at EIZO's website that talks about this (EIZO is a Japanese Company, founded in 1968) but was getting lazy on posting additional links lol
Quote:
As a rule of thumb, most Japanese film titles assume a 9300 K environment, while non-Japanese films assume a 6500 K environment. This means one is highly likely to achieve color reproduction close to that intended by filmmakers by setting the color temperature of an LCD monitor to 9300 K when viewing a Japanese film and 6500 K when viewing a non-Japanese film. (Naturally, this doesn't apply universally.) When using a model with a wide range of choices in Kelvin values—an Eizo Nanao LCD monitor, for example—users can adjust the color temperature to whatever looks best.

Here's also a LINK to preview Page 643 from Poynton's book (though he's going from D65 to 9300K labels:
Quote:
D65 (except in Japan, where the standard white reference is 9300 K).

All this has peaked my interest again, to see how this looks. I may look at sourcing some original and proper content from there and of course a proper source device and then some calibration sessions..

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post #741 of 2442 Old 01-07-2013, 10:51 AM
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Did a reading on my wife's 32" Samsung in the Family room - 9500K - but looks good in that it's in a bright room. (Happy wife, happy life!)
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post #742 of 2442 Old 01-08-2013, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I have also heard about this stuff in the past from my Australian users, it seems like there are many down under who watch content from japan.... unlike North America, UK Europe, Australia models are usually directly manufactured in Japan / asia and brought in to. I just think most here including Professionals have no direct knowledge about the past standards in Japan.
I also saw at EIZO's website that talks about this (EIZO is a Japanese Company, founded in 1968) but was getting lazy on posting additional links lol
Here's also a LINK to preview Page 643 from Poynton's book (though he's going from D65 to 9300K labels:
All this has peaked my interest again, to see how this looks. I may look at sourcing some original and proper content from there and of course a proper source device and then some calibration sessions..

I posted some screenshots over in the UT50 settings and Issues thread you can compare the differences. D9300K is quite cooler with "Castle in the Sky" from Studio Ghibli.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412033/the-official-panasonic-ut50-settings-issues-thread/570#post_22803809http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412033/the-official-panasonic-ut50-settings-issues-thread/570#post_22803809
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post #743 of 2442 Old 01-08-2013, 09:05 PM
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I will agree that D 9300K looks wrong in your photos. I also appreciate your effort, but you did your comparison using a DVD released for this region. (I believe in your PM to me, you said you doubt that they rebalanced the color for release over here... but there isn't any way to tell unless you got your hands on a copy of the film for that region.)

I would actually try with some native Japanese content instead of a domestic release here.

Even so, usually the Studio Ghibli movies come out in the theater in Japan first. It's possible that Japanese movies that come out in the theater first are balanced for 6500K first. (Theater equipment and not home equipment.)

And, even if your movie DOES look right at D65, it doesn't stop the fact that Japanese content that airs on TV has and is broadcast at 9300K.

As seen above, there's lots of evidence (from both consumers and professionals) that the Japanese use this as their white point for broadcasting.

This isn't a matter of "Well, gee, since I tested one thing from Japan that was released in the US, that everything native from Japan is done in 6500K!" it's actually a lot more complicated than that.

I downloaded the Persona 4 animation (broadcasted from HDTV, not ripped from DVD or Blu-Ray and on D65, it's clearly far too red.)

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #744 of 2442 Old 01-08-2013, 09:06 PM
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Just got a Radiance and have a newbie question. Should I be using any particular workflow to Autocal it or will the default quick analysis one do? So far the latter seems to work and is looking good!

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post #745 of 2442 Old 01-08-2013, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

I will agree that D 9300K looks wrong in your photos. I also appreciate your effort, but you did your comparison using a DVD released for this region. (I believe in your PM to me, you said you doubt that they rebalanced the color for release over here... but there isn't any way to tell unless you got your hands on a copy of the film for that region.)
I would actually try with some native Japanese content instead of a domestic release here.
Even so, usually the Studio Ghibli movies come out in the theater in Japan first. It's possible that Japanese movies that come out in the theater first are balanced for 6500K first. (Theater equipment and not home equipment.)
And, even if your movie DOES look right at D65, it doesn't stop the fact that Japanese content that airs on TV has and is broadcast at 9300K.
As seen above, there's lots of evidence (from both consumers and professionals) that the Japanese use this as their white point for broadcasting.
This isn't a matter of "Well, gee, since I tested one thing from Japan that was released in the US, that everything native from Japan is done in 6500K!" it's actually a lot more complicated than that.
I downloaded the Persona 4 animation (broadcasted from HDTV, not ripped from DVD or Blu-Ray and on D65, it's clearly far too red.)

Good call, thanks! I do own "Howl's Moving Castle" and a film called "Always San Chome no Yuuhi" (Always Sunny on Third Street). I will test with those possibly tomorrow. I'm having issues with my OS HDD so I will see how that goes. I could always see if I can find a rental of "Howl's Moving Castle."
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post #746 of 2442 Old 01-08-2013, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Just got a Radiance and have a newbie question. Should I be using any particular workflow to Autocal it or will the default quick analysis one do? So far the latter seems to work and is looking good!

No, any old workflow is fine, unless you are planning on doing a full 3D LUT for the radiance, then you should use the Color Cube (3D LUT) workflow.

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post #747 of 2442 Old 01-09-2013, 09:16 PM
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Currently have IREs, 2 and 10 Point Plus CMS set to Zeroes. AutoCal Gets the Grayscale fairly Linear. Is it OK to now go into the Grayscale IREs and tweak to get it even more linear, or just leave the IREs at Zeroes. The Autocal seems to have troubles at 20 and 80 IRE, leaving the Gamma 2.2 with some slight elevations. Tweaking flattens it out,
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post #748 of 2442 Old 01-09-2013, 09:57 PM
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Just remember that once you have run a full calibration, going back in a changing your settings will 90 out of 100 times change other settings, so you are probably causing other points to be off. So when using autocal imo its best just to re-run autocal until you are happy with the outcome. Also meter placement and window size will have some impact on how the calibration comes out.

When I calibrated manually I would do just that, check and re-check everything, until I got all settings working in harmony.

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post #749 of 2442 Old 01-10-2013, 01:04 PM
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AutoCal , despite running 5 times, consistently left 80IRE RGB at equal levels Below the Reference Line. 100IRE, either had problems with Blue, or Red. When it finally got 100IRE right, 80, got worse. Got fed up and Manually tweaked to Flatten the 2.2 line. What I can't understand is, when I find I have 1 Click is too High, or 1 Click the other way is too Low, I thought AutoCal had more settings to play with that would work out to, let's say, a 1/2 Click, or 1/4 Click. But it seems to be constrained by the 1 Click problem as well. (or, it sometimes appears worse like it can only do a 2 Click)
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post #750 of 2442 Old 01-10-2013, 01:25 PM
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AutoCal doesn't have any finer resolution available to it than the hardware exposes via it's menu.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
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