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post #901 of 2511 Old 01-29-2013, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

My results: Using my i1Pro, mounted directly to the screen (C6 currently attached to my TriPod) and painter's tape to mark where the Meter and holder strap are, to try and get the Meter back to the same spot after each Dark Reading.
#1 - Is there a difference in readings between Activations on two different Plates. Yes
#2 - Activation on same plate two times in a row - different readings, but a lot closer than the Different Activations!

Conclusions:
#1 - Meter on Screen calibrations are definitely not the way to go. Tripod gives a lot better over all average.
#2 - No matter how careful you are about returning the Meter to where you did the last reading after doing a Dark Reading, the results won't be the same. Forget the Dark Readings except between Work Flows.
#3 - If you're like me, and have 2 Meters, make sure the Plate and Meter Match re Serial #s. (And guess what, my Meter I've been doing all my calibrations with for the past while, was on the Wrong Plate!)
#4 - If possible, use a C6 to Profile to. This way time is not of the essence, re Dark Readings. If Dual Meter combos is too expensive - look into Renting the i1Pro to get your Profile, or, if you're lucky, someone else in your near vicinity and has the i1Pro or 2, will allow you to borrow his, or come over with it to make the profile.
#5 - Due to continuing changes in atmosphere, electrical values, etc - I always do a New Profile before each calibration session. It only tales a minute.
#6 - After calibration, before deciding on how your results look, turn the TV Off, wait a few seconds, then turn back on. Does sort of a reset to the New Values.

imo

#1(A?) is not correct for a i1Pro Rev D (just doing dark readings) for our purposes unless your are needing the internal lamp (again, we don't use it), meter damage or user error.
#1(B?) to general, not at all for all display types..
#2 (1st part) IMO is not as a big deal as some will make of it in regards to plasmas.
#4 is not correct (you don't want to profile against a colorimeter).
#5 is correct

#6, if this happens, return it (power surge/strike/local diming/abl is different)

I understand you are stating this is for your experiences, I'd love to get others there to validate!

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post #902 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Absolutely, for all of your questions!

the ColorMunki Spectro is my second choice

Hi Turbe,

I use the Colormunki successfully to profile my C6 and OEM D3 ( the thread you refer to was instrumental in my decision).
I also valued your comments at the time on another forum.

The only down side is that if you use other software than Calman the Colormunki is not recognised (Xrite decision).

I believe its active components are identical to the i1 spectro although its shape is less ideal for our type of calibration but the thread gives ways to overcome this..
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post #903 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

#6 - After calibration, before deciding on how your results look, turn the TV Off, wait a few seconds, then turn back on. Does sort of a reset to the New Values.

If this is a required process something is broke. Might as well hold off with any type of calibration until the display is replaced.
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post #904 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 06:43 AM
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I Profile the i1Pro to the C6, not the other way around.
If you use the Calman work Flow re Meter positioning, I do not go all over the screen looking for the highest reading, but instead, have the C6 mounted on a TriPod positioned about mid point, then slide the tripod from Left to Right, looking for the Highest Reading, and then calibrate there. Spot is marked with Painters Masking tape on the stand for future reference.
Re turning the TV off and back on, we noticed in the past, after a night of calibration, the TV always looked better the next day. Hence the Off and On routine. Noticed the other night after calibrating my LG 55LV9500, that when Calman was turned Off, and the TV returned to it's under lying program, things looked somewhat washed out. Turned set Off, waited 10 seconds, turned back On and Colour was back. This is on all 4 TVs I calibrate at my place that I notice this.
Tonight, will compare the readings from my C6 on the Tripod, profiled from the i1Pro after Activating on each Plate and see it there is a noticeable difference or not. Since the Tripod doesn't move, it should get a better average reading of the set.
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post #905 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Re turning the TV off and back on, we noticed in the past, after a night of calibration, the TV always looked better the next day. Hence the Off and On routine. Noticed the other night after calibrating my LG 55LV9500, that when Calman was turned Off, and the TV returned to it's under lying program, things looked somewhat washed out. Turned set Off, waited 10 seconds, turned back On and Colour was back. This is on all 4 TVs I calibrate at my place that I notice this.
I'm not sure I'm following this. With all your displays, when done and fully calibrated you turn them off and then back on and they look visually different? So they are no longer calibrated at the point they were before being turned off and this difference is seen as an improvement?
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post #906 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post


For emissive use it just needs a dark reads on something completely opaque (not the translucent glass of a switched off TV).

just to clarify, where exactly does light enter the sensor from in this scenario (i1pro1 placed in contact mode on LED-LCD screen, powered off)? from the sides? from behind the LCD panel itself?

if it enters from the sides, is it through the tiny gap between screen surface and the foam lining (which is flush against the screen thanks to a mop handle gently leaning against the meter)?

or through the LCD panel itself from the sides?


also, is there way to measure the Y reading in this position to see if the sensor reads zero? if it does read zero, does that mean the dark reading will be accurate?
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post #907 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 09:05 AM
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and if this method isn't accurate, would it be a better idea for me to only do the dark reading once on the calibration plate/any flat, black opaque surface?

I ask because I feel not only is removing the meter every 10 mins a pain, but re-centering it might shift it's position on the screen somewhat and cause the readings to change a bit (making the calibration less precise/repeatable)
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post #908 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

We have seen internally, that running a radiance Cube AutoCal with an i1Pro works very well. Just make sure to re-init the meter after grayscale and before the Cube.

What happened to the Initialize Meter step that was in older versions of CalMan for the Chroma5? Is it only provided for certain meters now?

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post #909 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

and if this method isn't accurate, would it be a better idea for me to only do the dark reading once on the calibration plate/any flat, black opaque surface?

I ask because I feel not only is removing the meter every 10 mins a pain, but re-centering it might shift it's position on the screen somewhat and cause the readings to change a bit (making the calibration less precise/repeatable)

If you set the side button, you just have to lift it off the screen enough to get your finger over the hole, hit button on side of meter and your done. Now just drop it back against the glass where it was.. Not difficult to put it back where it was at all.
If your pixels are so different that moving the meter 3 mm to either side of where it was makes a visible difference in the picture, you better get a new TV man! eek.gif
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post #910 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praz View Post

I'm not sure I'm following this. With all your displays, when done and fully calibrated you turn them off and then back on and they look visually different? So they are no longer calibrated at the point they were before being turned off and this difference is seen as an improvement?

What I'm saying is, the calibration is on with the calibrating patterns, but when Calman shuts down, and the underlying programming comes back up, it doesn't come up perfectly. Shutting down and backup, resets the new calibrations into the PQ.
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post #911 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

What I'm saying is, the calibration is on with the calibrating patterns, but when Calman shuts down, and the underlying programming comes back up, it doesn't come up perfectly. Shutting down and backup, resets the new calibrations into the PQ.

This sounds like really strange behavior. How can the meter see what it's doing to get a proper cal if it all changes on a power cycle?
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post #912 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post

This sounds like really strange behavior. How can the meter see what it's doing to get a proper cal if it all changes on a power cycle?

A friend of mine found the same with his visual calibration. When shut down for the night, then started back up the next day, he found his PQ was better. Also has LGs.
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post #913 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 11:06 AM
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I have run across a few TVs in my career where you had to cycle picture modes and/or inputs to get the calibration to stick or be fully in effect. I think some of them might have been LGs, though I can't remember for sure. I haven't noticed that type of behavior on the LH90s or 55LHX, though.

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post #914 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post


if I was to cover the TV in a thick black drape/blanket would that work fine?

If it was light blocking (100% light blocking) it would work... maybe...

The TV produces a fair bit of heat whether LCD or plasma... LED/LCD probably produces the least heat, plasma probably produces the most heat. If you attach the cloth around the edges of the bezel, the back of the TV would be uncovered and that would help a LOT of heat to escape, however, the screen also radiates a fair amount of heat (especially so with plasma) and that heat would still get trapped under the cover. So if you were going to cover the TV for an entire calibration session, you'd need some way for heat to escape from under the cover... like a chimney with a light baffle in it (made of the same light blocking material... a zig-zag path that would allow hot air to rise but block outside light from getting into the cover. Not too practical. If you were just going to cover-up for a little while to do a dark calibration, that would be fine. But if the meter is untrustworthy for a dark calibration without covering the TV, I'd say the meter is also unreliable for taking readings with the TV uncovered during a calibration session. Some meters have very narrow angles of view and aren't much affected by outside light, but others have a 90 to almost 180 degree field of view and those really wouldn't be too trustworthy if outside light was present.

The other issue is if you uncover the back of the TV, there's no guarantee that strong light in the room wouldn't manage to leak through the vent holes and past circuit breakers and hit the back of the panel... not sure if that would be an issue or not... you'd have to take measurements with the back covered and uncovered to see if uncovering the back changes the readings. Some of these new-fangled bezels may not even be light-tight because of the composition... the black color may be internal and there could be a lot of clear on top of the black... some colors may not be completely opaque either. So you have to be careful if you are trying to create a localized dark area for calibrating a flat panel TV... the heat and tricky ways light could get into the panel make the job a little harder than it might seem on the surface.

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post #915 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I have run across a few TVs in my career where you had to cycle picture modes and/or inputs to get the calibration to stick or be fully in effect. I think some of them might have been LGs, though I can't remember for sure. I haven't noticed that type of behavior on the LH90s or 55LHX, though.

Ah. another test to perform:
#1 - Profile i1Pro to the C6 after Dark Reading on Plate #1, take reading. Take Dark Reading on Plate #2. Profile to the C6, and take another reading.
#2 - Do all the AutoCals, after Dark Reading on the Correct Plate - take reading. Turn set off, count to 10, turn back on and take another reading and compare.
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post #916 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

What I'm saying is, the calibration is on with the calibrating patterns, but when Calman shuts down, and the underlying programming comes back up, it doesn't come up perfectly. Shutting down and backup, resets the new calibrations into the PQ.

I see what you are saying (I think).. this can happen with some models..

but, if you have your settings and watch your reference content (not calibrating, not in calibration mode)... and simply power cycle the display and return to watching your reference content (which is what I originally thought you meant) the settings/pq should be the same unless something is up.

Now, some models have required a power cycle after the calibration session.. but you do the power cycle after adjustment.. not adjustment, reference content viewing, power cycle, reference content.

Of course, I have received calls from Calibrators during their calibration of displays exhibiting some bizarre / odd behavior (doing the 'Demi Moore') so maybe we shouldn't be surprised... wink.gif

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post #917 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

If it was light blocking (100% light blocking) it would work... maybe...

The TV produces a fair bit of heat whether LCD or plasma... LED/LCD probably produces the least heat, plasma probably produces the most heat. If you attach the cloth around the edges of the bezel, the back of the TV would be uncovered and that would help a LOT of heat to escape, however, the screen also radiates a fair amount of heat (especially so with plasma) and that heat would still get trapped under the cover. So if you were going to cover the TV for an entire calibration session, you'd need some way for heat to escape from under the cover... like a chimney with a light baffle in it (made of the same light blocking material... a zig-zag path that would allow hot air to rise but block outside light from getting into the cover. Not too practical. If you were just going to cover-up for a little while to do a dark calibration, that would be fine. But if the meter is untrustworthy for a dark calibration without covering the TV, I'd say the meter is also unreliable for taking readings with the TV uncovered during a calibration session. Some meters have very narrow angles of view and aren't much affected by outside light, but others have a 90 to almost 180 degree field of view and those really wouldn't be too trustworthy if outside light was present.

The other issue is if you uncover the back of the TV, there's no guarantee that strong light in the room wouldn't manage to leak through the vent holes and past circuit breakers and hit the back of the panel... not sure if that would be an issue or not... you'd have to take measurements with the back covered and uncovered to see if uncovering the back changes the readings. Some of these new-fangled bezels may not even be light-tight because of the composition... the black color may be internal and there could be a lot of clear on top of the black... some colors may not be completely opaque either. So you have to be careful if you are trying to create a localized dark area for calibrating a flat panel TV... the heat and tricky ways light could get into the panel make the job a little harder than it might seem on the surface.

thanks, the following are the specifics:

display is LED-LCD (Samsung UN46EH6030) with tiny bezel

meter is i1pro1 spectro, Rev D

I only plan to use the cloth during dark readings/cals
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post #918 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

If you set the side button, you just have to lift it off the screen enough to get your finger over the hole, hit button on side of meter and your done. Now just drop it back against the glass where it was.. Not difficult to put it back where it was at all.
If your pixels are so different that moving the meter 3 mm to either side of where it was makes a visible difference in the picture, you better get a new TV man! eek.gif

can't light still go through your finger?
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post #919 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

can't light still go through your finger?

put a light source behind your hand

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post #920 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Hi Turbe,

I use the Colormunki successfully to profile my C6 and OEM D3 ( the thread you refer to was instrumental in my decision).
I also valued your comments at the time on another forum.

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The only down side is that if you use other software than Calman the Colormunki is not recognised (Xrite decision).

just the two apps for our purposes

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post #921 of 2511 Old 01-30-2013, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Ah. another test to perform:
#1 - Profile i1Pro to the C6 after Dark Reading on Plate #1, take reading. Take Dark Reading on Plate #2. Profile to the C6, and take another reading.
#2 - Do all the AutoCals, after Dark Reading on the Correct Plate - take reading. Turn set off, count to 10, turn back on and take another reading and compare.

Current update: Did a complete AutoCal calibration after doing the Dark Reading on the correct Plate: Took final reading, turned set off, waited 10 seconds, turned back on, took second reading. Grayscale some minor differences. 125 Point All Colours Doubled Up from first reading. Re-ran the Grayscale AutoCal. First run through resulted in an avg of 0.36, second, avg of 0.26.
Second run through of the 125 Point 3D LUT, like the Grayscale had a flatter and closer to Reference 0 Line. Turning Off/On - this time, differences in the Gray scale, virtually none on the 125 Point All Colours. Took Dark reading from Plate #2, and profiled the i1Pro to the C6. Took third reading. Grayscale stayed virtually the same, 125 Point Colours, about 75% of the Colours Doubled Up.

Conclusion: Yes there are differences between the readings taken after Dark Readings on different Plates, but, I doubt the eye could detect them. But, from now on, will put the same serial numbered Meter and Plates together for my Dark Readings.
Secondly, it does appear after the initial run through on my particular set, it's best to do the Off/On routine, then do a Second AutoCal on the Grayscale and 125 Point 3D LUT resulting in a lot closer to Reference finish. A Second Off/On does not have any benefit..
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post #922 of 2511 Old 01-31-2013, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Current update: Did a complete AutoCal calibration after doing the Dark Reading on the correct Plate: Took final reading, turned set off, waited 10 seconds, turned back on, took second reading. Grayscale some minor differences. 125 Point All Colours Doubled Up from first reading. Re-ran the Grayscale AutoCal. First run through resulted in an avg of 0.36, second, avg of 0.26.
Second run through of the 125 Point 3D LUT, like the Grayscale had a flatter and closer to Reference 0 Line. Turning Off/On - this time, differences in the Gray scale, virtually none on the 125 Point All Colours. Took Dark reading from Plate #2, and profiled the i1Pro to the C6. Took third reading. Grayscale stayed virtually the same, 125 Point Colours, about 75% of the Colours Doubled Up.

Conclusion: Yes there are differences between the readings taken after Dark Readings on different Plates, but, I doubt the eye could detect them. But, from now on, will put the same serial numbered Meter and Plates together for my Dark Readings.
Secondly, it does appear after the initial run through on my particular set, it's best to do the Off/On routine, then do a Second AutoCal on the Grayscale and 125 Point 3D LUT resulting in a lot closer to Reference finish. A Second Off/On does not have any benefit..

Hey if you think on/off helps then do it.

When you want to check out how a calibration came out I use quick profile and look at the raw numbers. The charts are fine but the raw numbers are what really maters, and from what I have seen of these numbers it looks to me that they all are in the ball park.
When I profile my C6 to my I1Pro 2, I have about a 4" difference in distance from my VT50's screen. The I1Pro is the meter that is farthest back from a large 11% window.

I hope you are using 1092 Beta

ss
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post #923 of 2511 Old 01-31-2013, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Hey if you think on/off helps then do it.

When you want to check out how a calibration came out I use quick profile and look at the raw numbers. The charts are fine but the raw numbers are what really maters, and from what I have seen of these numbers it looks to me that they all are in the ball park.
When I profile my C6 to my I1Pro 2, I have about a 4" difference in distance from my VT50's screen. The I1Pro is the meter that is farthest back from a large 11% window.

I hope you are using 1092 Beta

ss

Why would you profile the C6 to to i1Pro 2? I thought the idea was to go from the i1Pro2, profiled to the C6? This eliminates the Dark Readings. Also the i1Pro to the C6 will enhance the C6 performance.
My C6 Meter is on a tripod about 18" from the LG LCD/LED screen with Full Screen Patterns.
After the tests last night, the First Calibration, to be set into the TV, must be shut down, then turned back on. A Second Autocal now gives even better results. Turning Off then On this time makes no changes.
Yes, using 1092.
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post #924 of 2511 Old 01-31-2013, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Why would you profile the C6 to to i1Pro 2? I thought the idea was to go from the i1Pro2, profiled to the C6?
.

you have it backwards.. you profile a colorimeter to a Spectro on your display (profile C6 to i1Pro2).

Why a Spectro, see why here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1373556/i1-pro-or-d3-if-you-could-only-have-one-meter

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/

And Read this Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449310/eye-one-pro-or-display-3-pro

Please do take the time to read through all the posts and info linked above.

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post #925 of 2511 Old 01-31-2013, 10:24 AM
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The terminology can be confusing.

The use of 'reference' and 'target' in Calman 5 'meter profiling' will hopefully make which does what more obvious.
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post #926 of 2511 Old 01-31-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Why would you profile the C6 to to i1Pro 2? I thought the idea was to go from the i1Pro2, profiled to the C6? This eliminates the Dark Readings. Also the i1Pro to the C6 will enhance the C6 performance.
My C6 Meter is on a tripod about 18" from the LG LCD/LED screen with Full Screen Patterns.
After the tests last night, the First Calibration, to be set into the TV, must be shut down, then turned back on. A Second Autocal now gives even better results. Turning Off then On this time makes no changes.
Yes, using 1092.

In other words when using Calmans profile my I1Pro 2 goes on top and my C6 goes on the bottom. My C6 gets profiled from my I1pro 2.

I know this can get a little confusing (to/from) but yes you have it right, once you profile your C6 to or from your I1pro you use the C6 for your readings. And yes its because of your dark readings, plus the C6 is faster and if you do a 3D (stereo) calibration you simply put the shutter glass on the I1pro when you profile your C6 (no glasses on the C6). And then do your 3D (stereo) calibration with your C6 without glasses.

I find that using Calman 5E for any auto LUT cube calibration, it is hit or miss. A few factors that I find that make a differences in the outcome of the calibration are the profiling of the meter, no IR from a past calibration's windows, proper warm up, placement and window size along with my light settings.
Also I like to use a dE of 0.25 and for the cube a dE of 0.5, however it seems that when using Beta 1092 the dE 2000 cube cutoff will not stay on 0.5 and goes back to its default of 1.

ss
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post #927 of 2511 Old 01-31-2013, 03:14 PM
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I only calibrate projectors mostly, question...

I noticed by eye my calibrations were coming out too red (it was enough RED to definitely see the IRE patterns were too red).
I then moved the meter around and noticed my C6 is too easily reading different RGB variations at 100 IRE with only slight positioning adjustments. It is too sensitive to a change of how much red it is reading even at tiny changes in fL from positioning. I don't mean a slight variation, let's say RED was reading 80% while meter was pointing exactly at screen center, yet if I just move the meter barely to point a little lower, I see RED reading 110%, etc... (just an example). The error correlates to how many fL I get when the meter is re-positioned, at lesser fL's it reads higher RED, even on the same screen. I can tell by eye the reading is wrong because that big of a uniformity error on my screen would be visible, guess I should try it on a neutral screen next. I don't own a spectrometer to profile against unfortunately.

I'm wondering if this could be partly because I'm using a Da-Lite High Power screen with the PJ, maybe I need to calibrate from the lens in this situation (will try that next).
What warranty do our C6's have?


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post #928 of 2511 Old 01-31-2013, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

What warranty do our C6's have?

One year and we have never had one fail on initial cert or even re-certs. They are setup really well at the factory.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
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post #929 of 2511 Old 01-31-2013, 04:10 PM
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OK, I've tried it with 3 different projectors lately and it always calibrates the gray-scale too red, is it the HP screen causing it?
Guess calibrating from lens is only way I'll know... Is there some setting besides UHP lamp that might work better when calibrating off the screen for an HP?


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #930 of 2511 Old 01-31-2013, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

OK, I've tried it with 3 different projectors lately and it always calibrates the gray-scale too red, is it the HP screen causing it?
Guess calibrating from lens is only way I'll know... Is there some setting besides UHP lamp that might work better when calibrating off the screen for an HP?
I had an HP2.8 screen and have lived through what you're experiencing. Not only does the HP change brightness off axis but the color changes as well. Consequently, you have to be very precise in positioning the C6 to avoid its shadow but to also get as close to on axis as possible. One calibrator I know gets his best results by adjusting the meter for maximum Red Y. Calibrating facing the projector solves those particular issues when calibrating, but of course the screen's affects on color will still be present. I no longer use my HP because of its changes to the image at various off-axis viewing positions. Also, with my HT5000E I no longer need a high gain screen.
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