CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 2511 Old 03-28-2013, 01:58 PM
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I read that running a Color Cube autocal affects RGB balance at some points. Are we talking about the same RGB balance controls that a Greyscale autocal would use and therefore also reset?

Thank you

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post #1262 of 2511 Old 03-28-2013, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

I read that running a Color Cube autocal affects RGB balance at some points. Are we talking about the same RGB balance controls that a Greyscale autocal would use and therefore also reset?

Thank you

No. For the radiance the 125 point calibration relies on the 21 point grayscale to set the gamma. Having only 5 control points for grayscale gamma (what you get via the 125 point cube) does not provide sufficient control to get errors as low as users expect from a 21 point calibration.

That said, the points in between the points we calibrate are affected by the 6 neighboring control points that push and pull through the middle of any interior cubes. So you will see the RGB balance is slightly disturbed. But that's beyond our ability to control, it's part of the interpolation algorithm inside the radiance.

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post #1263 of 2511 Old 03-28-2013, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

No. For the radiance the 125 point calibration relies on the 21 point grayscale to set the gamma. Having only 5 control points for grayscale gamma (what you get via the 125 point cube) does not provide sufficient control to get errors as low as users expect from a 21 point calibration.

That said, the points in between the points we calibrate are affected by the 6 neighboring control points that push and pull through the middle of any interior cubes. So you will see the RGB balance is slightly disturbed. But that's beyond our ability to control, it's part of the interpolation algorithm inside the radiance.

Can you Post this over on the ChromaPure Forum? Tom is insisting that 21 Point AutoCal is not required, and he's dropping it in favour of only the 11/10 Point. From what you're saying, if one wants to do a proper 125 3D LUT, the 21 Point is much more preferable on the Radiance VQs.
I got a little discussion going after doing a 11 Point AutoCal, taking a reading, then upped it to 21 Point and took another reading. All the #5 points were not linear with the calibrated points on either side. Then finally did the 21 Point AutoCal to show things were now more linear.Unfortunately my photos were not the best. But from what I've seen, the 21 Point is in my methodology to stay.
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post #1264 of 2511 Old 03-28-2013, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Can you Post this over on the ChromaPure Forum? Tom is insisting that 21 Point AutoCal is not required, and he's dropping it in favour of only the 11/10 Point. From what you're saying, if one wants to do a proper 125 3D LUT, the 21 Point is much more preferable on the Radiance VQs.
I got a little discussion going after doing a 11 Point AutoCal, taking a reading, then upped it to 21 Point and took another reading. All the #5 points were not linear with the calibrated points on either side. Then finally did the 21 Point AutoCal to show things were now more linear.Unfortunately my photos were not the best. But from what I've seen, the 21 Point is in my methodology to stay.

We don't feel it is the interest as a company to post in our competitors threads unless we are defending our product, employees or company.

From our research and testing with all various LUT systems 1D, 3D and matrix. We have found in most cases you correct as much as you can in 1D RGB or 1D RGBCMY when you can then move onto saturation points. Our AutoCal and AutoCube process and algorithms are designed and optimized for this. As you pointed out we get the best performance by using a 21 grayscale/gamma in addition to the 125 point cube.

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post #1265 of 2511 Old 03-29-2013, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Can you Post this over on the ChromaPure Forum? Tom is insisting that 21 Point AutoCal is not required, and he's dropping it in favour of only the 11/10 Point. From what you're saying, if one wants to do a proper 125 3D LUT, the 21 Point is much more preferable on the Radiance VQs.
I got a little discussion going after doing a 11 Point AutoCal, taking a reading, then upped it to 21 Point and took another reading. All the #5 points were not linear with the calibrated points on either side. Then finally did the 21 Point AutoCal to show things were now more linear.Unfortunately my photos were not the best. But from what I've seen, the 21 Point is in my methodology to stay.

I'm really surprised to hear this. So you heard that Chromapure is really going to drop 21 point calibration? I am so glad to read Derek's message and see that in CalMAN they will continue to provide 21 point autocal. That is VERY important to me and glad I went with CalMAN (for many reasons besides this).
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post #1266 of 2511 Old 03-29-2013, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

No. For the radiance the 125 point calibration relies on the 21 point grayscale to set the gamma. Having only 5 control points for grayscale gamma (what you get via the 125 point cube) does not provide sufficient control to get errors as low as users expect from a 21 point calibration.

That said, the points in between the points we calibrate are affected by the 6 neighboring control points that push and pull through the middle of any interior cubes. So you will see the RGB balance is slightly disturbed. But that's beyond our ability to control, it's part of the interpolation algorithm inside the radiance.

I think what you're saying is the 5 Grey points in the cube are skipped?

What happens if I then disable the 3D Color Gamut in the Radiance menu? Is the original undisturbed greyscale restored?

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Stefan

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post #1267 of 2511 Old 03-29-2013, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I'm really surprised to hear this. So you heard that Chromapure is really going to drop 21 point calibration? I am so glad to read Derek's message and see that in CalMAN they will continue to provide 21 point autocal. That is VERY important to me and glad I went with CalMAN (for many reasons besides this).

Boy... you and me both!
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post #1268 of 2511 Old 03-29-2013, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

I think what you're saying is the 5 Grey points in the cube are skipped?

What happens if I then disable the 3D Color Gamut in the Radiance menu? Is the original undisturbed greyscale restored?

Thanks,
Stefan

Yes, that is what would happen.

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post #1269 of 2511 Old 03-29-2013, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Can you Post this over on the ChromaPure Forum? Tom is insisting that 21 Point AutoCal is not required, and he's dropping it in favour of only the 11/10 Point. From what you're saying, if one wants to do a proper 125 3D LUT, the 21 Point is much more preferable on the Radiance VQs.
I got a little discussion going after doing a 11 Point AutoCal, taking a reading, then upped it to 21 Point and took another reading. All the #5 points were not linear with the calibrated points on either side. Then finally did the 21 Point AutoCal to show things were now more linear.Unfortunately my photos were not the best. But from what I've seen, the 21 Point is in my methodology to stay.

I don't know about LCD displays but for my CRT the 5% is essential for getting shadow details right.

When you do a 10-point not sure if the points in between will be linear but there should be some kind of interpolation to make it look smooth, just like the days before 21-point calibration existed. What does the Gray/Gamma setting in the Radiance CMS menu say? If it's still at 21 Points that is a problem. Note: if you try to change it to 11 Points or less you should see a warning message about dropping points.

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post #1270 of 2511 Old 03-29-2013, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

When you do a 10-point not sure if the points in between will be linear but there should be some kind of interpolation to make it look smooth, just like the days before 21-point calibration existed.

My understanding is the radiance grayscale is piecewise linear interpolation and anytime you switch data points you do lose the data in those points.

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post #1271 of 2511 Old 03-29-2013, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Grayscale autocal resets all the grayscale controls before starting.

Is this true for any supported device or only for the Radiance devices?
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post #1272 of 2511 Old 03-29-2013, 11:44 AM
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Is this true for any supported device or only for the Radiance devices?

All devices.

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post #1273 of 2511 Old 03-29-2013, 04:09 PM
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Hi
I'm looking at going down the calman 5 route I would like to get an idea which will it be best to use to calibrate my DVDO DUO or JVC RS60U? I'm new to this calibrations as I used to hire Isf calibrators but I've recently learned that Calman also offers Autocal like CP does but Calman is able to do the JVC RS60U as well.

Thank you

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post #1274 of 2511 Old 03-30-2013, 04:30 AM
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Well I've ordered my package tonight. Hopefully receive it soon.

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post #1275 of 2511 Old 03-30-2013, 01:38 PM
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5.1.1. 1163 ( Beta) Enthusiast/Win7/MacAir

Best Calman Autocal Process Yet!

Wow. Today I downloaded the latest beta and gave it a whirl with my new Lumagen Mini, i1 Display OEM ( profiled to a Color Munki Photo) on my Panasonic VT50.

Right off-the-bat I noticed the new autocal process has been greatly enhanced :

1. FAST!
2. Goes back and forth adjusting settings after initial autocal run ( mimics the manual point by point adjustments I used to make after the initial autocal run)

Check out these 100% autocal results below:




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post #1276 of 2511 Old 03-30-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBJ2 View Post

5.1.1. 1163 ( Beta) Enthusiast/Win7/MacAir

Best Calman Autocal Process Yet!

Wow. Today I downloaded the latest beta and gave it a whirl with my new Lumagen Mini, i1 Display OEM ( profiled to a Color Munki Photo) on my Panasonic VT50.

Right off-the-bat I noticed the new autocal process has been greatly enhanced :

1. FAST!
2. Goes back and forth adjusting settings after initial autocal run ( mimics the manual point by point adjustments I used to make after the initial autocal run)

...

So is this new found speediness compared to 5.1? Because 5.1 was way faster than 5.0 so if there's even more speed that's fantastic!

You can run a color cube with the equipment you have. Have you tried that speed-wise? I'm down to 1/2 hour with 5.1.
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post #1277 of 2511 Old 03-30-2013, 03:01 PM
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5.1.1.1163
Lumagen Mini
i1 Display OEM
VT50

I probably don't have something set up correctly as this is the first time I've attempted running a color cube. Pls see error msg below: "Hardware 3D Lut Size None" ( thanks in advance for any suggestions)


LB
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post #1278 of 2511 Old 03-30-2013, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBJ2 View Post

5.1.1.1163
Lumagen Mini
i1 Display OEM
VT50

I probably don't have something set up correctly as this is the first time I've attempted running a color cube. Pls see error msg below: "Hardware 3D Lut Size None" ( thanks in advance for any suggestions)

Under the "Direct Display Control" select "Lumagen Radiance 3D LUT". It looks like you're still connected to the Panasonic.

Good looking results, by the way.biggrin.gif
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post #1279 of 2511 Old 03-30-2013, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBJ2 View Post

5.1.1.1163
Lumagen Mini
i1 Display OEM
VT50

I probably don't have something set up correctly as this is the first time I've attempted running a color cube. Pls see error msg below: "Hardware 3D Lut Size None" ( thanks in advance for any suggestions)


Yes you're still set with the panasonic as the active display, go into the display tab and switch over to the lumagen.

I've done that to myself before too.
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post #1280 of 2511 Old 03-30-2013, 05:05 PM
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Joel, ElectronicTonic: Thank you! That did the trick. Just completed my first color cube! biggrin.gif

LB
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post #1281 of 2511 Old 04-01-2013, 11:43 AM
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I have the i1Display Pro colorimeter +Calman 5.1 (latest FW)+ AVS 709 disk ( I used window patterns). I have calibrated my 60" Pioneer Kuro NON ELITE using this equipment.
I have only the Colour & Tint "slider" bar, as well as the usual Brightness, sharpness.... etc adjustments on my TV. Pretty straight forward !!

I have calibrated the set for colour & tint using the blue filter method with (Spears & Munsil HD disk as well as DVE HD BD disks) & in conjunction with Calman 4.X. When using the disks & filter I get (colour = +4 & Tint = Red 4).
I have also calibrated the set for colour & tint using Calman 5.0. When I used Calman 5.0, I got (colour = 1 & Tint = Red 1).
Yesterday, I used the Calman 5.1 software and I started to look at the "Quick Analysis" CMS chart.

With the TV settings at (colour = +4 & Tint = Red 4) my Delta 2000 chart was below 5 and below 3 for all primary and secondary colours with 100% white at 4.3 & 75% white at 4.9.
With the TV settings at (colour = 1 & Tint = Red 1) my Delta 2000 chart was just slightly better for all primary and secondary colours than the above.

I decided to adjust the TV settings to (colour = 0 & Tint = 0). With the TV settings at (colour = 0 & Tint = 0) my Delta 2000 chart was now below 4 and well below 3 for primary and secondary colours with 100% white at 4.1 & 75% white at 4.2.

Question: Which method should I use for colour & Tint, the disks & blue filter or Calman 5.0 or 5.1?

BTW real world material on Sat/ & BD (Oppo 93), looked very good, skin tones looked natural for both the (colour = 0 & Tint = 0) & (colour = +4 & Tint = Red 4) I could not tell them apart.


Thanks
Paul
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post #1282 of 2511 Old 04-01-2013, 04:24 PM
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Since you are using a colorimeter to set your CMS, my understanding is that you skip the blue filter color and tint step. Leave tint at 50/50 and color at default, and adjust your colors within your TV CMS.

My ES8000 settings, calibrated with an i1D3 and calman: Standard Mode, Movie Mode (out of date, will update soon)
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post #1283 of 2511 Old 04-03-2013, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Yes you're still set with the panasonic as the active display, go into the display tab and switch over to the lumagen.

I've done that to myself before too.

sotti,

Is it worth it to have both a colorimeter and spectrophometer to do measurements? I hear it may be beneficial for low readings to use a cheaper colorimeter and then finish with the other meter.

If so, how do I go about that in Calman?

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A lot of us use the Spectracal C6, profiled off either the i1Pro or 2. Then you get the best of both.
Checking with just my i1Pro after, found very little differences in the readings of the calibration done with the C6 profiled.
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post #1285 of 2511 Old 04-03-2013, 07:26 PM
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A lot of us use the Spectracal C6, profiled off either the i1Pro or 2. Then you get the best of both.
Checking with just my i1Pro after, found very little differences in the readings of the calibration done with the C6 profiled.

Add to that, when I asked Spectracal about yearly re-calibration, they said, from what they've seen, they wouldn't bother.
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HI I would like to make a mention for the beginners who are still deciding wether to have a go themselves in calibrating there display how impressed Ive been with Calman 5. As a beginner myself who has no idea in calibrating manually SpectralCal Calman 5 has changed that( I kid you not). I initially bought it to try out the autocal feature but I didn't realise how easy it was as it provided you with help every step of the way in there workflow. I used a DVDO DUO to calibrate with my JVC RS60U and controlling it via PC was easy using DDC(Direct Display Control) making easy to use to without the need of a remote. I did both workflows basic and advance and I couldn't be more happier with the results. I sent the workflow to Spectralcal as they said I was definitely on the right track (all the DeltasEs was under 3). The result on screen was fantastic.
Im know looking at upgrading my Duo to a Lumagen. smile.gif

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post #1287 of 2511 Old 04-04-2013, 07:47 AM
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HI I would like to make a mention for the beginners who are still deciding wether to have a go themselves in calibrating there display how impressed Ive been with Calman 5. As a beginner myself who has no idea in calibrating manually SpectralCal Calman 5 has changed that( I kid you not). I initially bought it to try out the autocal feature but I didn't realise how easy it was as it provided you with help every step of the way in there workflow. I used a DVDO DUO to calibrate with my JVC RS60U and controlling it via PC was easy using DDC(Direct Display Control) making easy to use to without the need of a remote. I did both workflows basic and advance and I couldn't be more happier with the results. I sent the workflow to Spectralcal as they said I was definitely on the right track (all the DeltasEs was under 3). The result on screen was fantastic.
Im know looking at upgrading my Duo to a Lumagen. smile.gif

Thank you for this info, I feel a little better jumping into the DIY calibration. Do you find the DOU is a good unit ?

Every day above ground is a good day.
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post #1288 of 2511 Old 04-04-2013, 09:44 AM
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Thank you for this info, I feel a little better jumping into the DIY calibration. Do you find the DOU is a good unit ?

Yeah I don't mind it did the job spot on! The Pq looks awesome no complaints here smile.gif. Remember if you do start to go start with tutorial workflow that will teach you step by step. Beauty about it is you can go a step back if need be.

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post #1289 of 2511 Old 04-04-2013, 12:22 PM
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Next Build of CalMAN coming this week will include Color Checker of 96 Colors ? (I have to update my upcoming disk)

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
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post #1290 of 2511 Old 04-04-2013, 12:44 PM
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Next Build of CalMAN coming this week will include Color Checker of 96 Colors ? (I have to update my upcoming disk)

We were thinking of something like this:

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