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CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion

719K views 9K replies 455 participants last post by  Vishwa Somayaji 
#1 ·
#1,302 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23164911


X-Rite has 140 Colors, Have you removed the 'Classic Color Checker 24 Colors' or 17-Step Grayscale ?

http://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/gmb/en/100_ColorChecker_brochure_en.pdf
http://www.babelcolor.com/main_level/ColorChecker_content/Digital%20ColorChecker%20SG.txt

One other thing to note, is even though the SG includes the original 24 colors, the values x-rite has for the 24 swatches were different enough between their documentation for the SG and Classic, that we included the SG data with the SG set and the classic retains the original values we use. So if you turn on both sets, you'll have overlap.
 
#1,305 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23166044


I assume there will be an Instruction Sheet to go with all this?

Instructions? Are there instructions for any part of CalMAN? Seriously... I love the system and am a great fan, but if anyone knows of any written instructions, let me know! For me, lack of written instructions is the most frustrating part of CalMAN. I used to write custom software and know a good set of docs takes as long to produce as the program itself (I'm including programmer docs in that too), so I understand not doing it. But a user manual would be great.
 
#1,306 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23167791


Instructions? Are there instructions for any part of CalMAN? Seriously... I love the system and am a great fan, but if anyone knows of any written instructions, let me know! For me, lack of written instructions is the most frustrating part of CalMAN. I used to write custom software and know a good set of docs takes as long to produce as the program itself (I'm including programmer docs in that too), so I understand not doing it. But a user manual would be great.

I have the enthusiast version of CalMAN 5 and there are tons of instructions built into the tutorial (basic and advanced) workflows as well as the HT Basic and HT Advanced workflows. There is also the help menu, with both sections relevant to specific parts of the workflows and a general help menu that opens in a separate window altogether. There is plenty of info on what to do and how to do it if you know where to look. Not 100% comprehensive, but better than version 4 by a mile.
 
#1,307 ·
I agree some additional instructions and specifically explanations of some of the settings and design mode in CalMAN would be helpful. However, the program has come a long way with the addition of the tutorials and help sections. Going through those should answer the majority of the questions most users have. I think the difficult part for a lot of users is not knowing the science of calibration more so than CalMAN itself. This expanded ColorChecker is a good example. Color values will need to be entered in either percentage or RGB triplets. Some users will be looking at SpectraCal for info on how to determine the RGB triplet values. I don't think it is the responsibility of any of the calibration software companies to teach calibration science so that their customers can use the features of their programs.
 
#1,308 ·
Well said Praz,


I still know very little about colour science but asking questions both here and other forums has allowed me to be capable of at least making a decent calibration.


Colorchecker and its associated Color Comparator have allowed me to bridge that gap between the maths of dE values and what they actually mean in colour difference. I think Joel was brave to initially use the patterns but what a success they have been.


In fact I have found recent versions of Calman 5 get progressively more capable yet at the same time easier to understand, a difficult thing to do. Calman today is much more understandable than the Calman of yesterday that seemed to cater only for the expert.
 
#1,309 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by praz  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23167909


I agree some additional instructions and specifically explanations of some of the settings and design mode in CalMAN would be helpful. However, the program has come a long way with the addition of the tutorials and help sections. Going through those should answer the majority of the questions most users have. I think the difficult part for a lot of users is not knowing the science of calibration more so than CalMAN itself. This expanded ColorChecker is a good example. Color values will need to be entered in either percentage or RGB triplets. Some users will be looking at SpectraCal for info on how to determine the RGB triplet values. I don't think it is the responsibility of any of the calibration software companies to teach calibration science so that their customers can use the features of their programs.

This statement was fine a few years ago! But, now days, you're out selling product to New Users, Amateurs, etc, not just to the `Been to 3 Years of Schooling' for this.' More and more home users are now buying your products and getting familiar to having a more than `Out of the Box' experience with their sets. So, I think that with more of the Home Users now becoming a larger part of your clientel, some adjustments have to be made. To do so, will again, increase sales to this market.
 
#1,310 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rachmat-d  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23167697


Sotti,


If i want to calibrate HTPC , with my Sony TV, with Client PC.

What should i use ? SRGB or D65 with Power Gamma ?


Thanks.

For the most part the difference between power 2.2, sRGB and BT.1886 is subtle, except in the shadow area. In the low end sRGB and BT.1886 come out of black a bit quicker.


Personally I use BT.1886, but sRGB is very similiar.


Either way the chromaticy targets you want are the same rec.709 and sRGB have exactly the same primaries and white point.
 
#1,311 ·
Thanks praz and plasma. I guess I'm just old-school. I'd like something to reference and learn from without having to necessarily sit at the computer... especially my calibration rig that's in my control room. I want something with a table of contents and an index... proper documentation.


I see cool custom screens and would just like to flip to a chapter on how to set them up. I see 10 point (I think, many more than 5 anyway) luminance ramps on the primary and secondaries and would like to know if I can set that up for a read to see how accurate my 5 point calibration is when interacting with the pj's color decoder. The thought of having to plow through a sequential tutorial to access this info puts me off, especially when I don't even know if that subject is covered or what tutorial it may be in. I can't even browse a table of contents or index to see if the subject is addressed at all. So I'm left with the prospect of having to plow through a bunch of material I already know to see if what I want to know is even addressed.


This may sound pretty negative. So I want to say again... I love CalMAN and the results. I'd buy it again in an instant.
 
#1,312 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by praz  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23167909


...

I think the difficult part for a lot of users is not knowing the science of calibration more so than CalMAN itself. This expanded ColorChecker is a good example. Color values will need to be entered in either percentage or RGB triplets. Some users will be looking at SpectraCal for info on how to determine the RGB triplet values. I don't think it is the responsibility of any of the calibration software companies to teach calibration science so that their customers can use the features of their programs.

I agree with this, and this isn't the type of information I'd want to see in a User Manual. I want details on how to set up custom screens and measurement options... stuff specific to CalMAN.
 
#1,313 ·

900x900px-LL-639cea7e_1Apr06.jpeg 45k .jpeg file

OK... this... for example, I just want to do this. And I don't want to have to plow through tutorials or ask on a forum how to do it. I just want to look at an index or a table of contents and go right to the place in the user documentation that addresses setting the luminance points for a read series.


And, I'd really like to have that screen that shows luminance and dE errors. One stop shopping. What a great screen!
 

Attachments

#1,314 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23168100


This statement was fine a few years ago! But, now days, you're out selling product to New Users, Amateurs, etc, not just to the `Been to 3 Years of Schooling' for this.' More and more home users are now buying your products and getting familiar to having a more than `Out of the Box' experience with their sets. So, I think that with more of the Home Users now becoming a larger part of your clientel, some adjustments have to be made. To do so, will again, increase sales to this market.

I guess we will just have to disagree on this. Maybe it is because I own businesses and realize that a profit has to be made to stay in business. It is completely unrealistic to think that one can buy software for $400 or $500.00 and receive several thousand dollars worth of education to go along with the purchase. I also feel both Derek and Joel do much to help with the education part on the forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23168184


I agree with this, and this isn't the type of information I'd want to see in a User Manual. I want details on how to set up custom screens and measurement options... stuff specific to CalMAN.

The examples in your previous post I think are reasonable expectations of info to include in CalMAN.
 
#1,315 ·
I agree that we could do a better job with written materials.


We poured many hours into the content for our tutorial workflows, but it would be good to go back through and get more of it into the actual help file (there is one you know). Once the content is in the help system, it can be printed or we could even produce a pdf version.


Our goal has always been to allow someone with no color science background to use our app and get started. Then as their interest and knowledge grows they can explore more and more of the features in the app. But approachability for a new user is very important to us, and is something where I think we can still do better.
 
#1,316 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23168271


I agree that we could do a better job with written materials.


We poured many hours into the content for our tutorial workflows, but it would be good to go back through and get more of it into the actual help file (there is one you know). Once the content is in the help system, it can be printed or we could even produce a pdf version.


Our goal has always been to allow someone with no color science background to use our app and get started. Then as their interest and knowledge grows they can explore more and more of the features in the app. But approachability for a new user is very important to us, and is something where I think we can still do better.

I may sound frustrated, but I am addressing just one small portion of your product. Overall I'd have to say CalMAN/Radiance/C6 has made the single greatest positive impact on my home theater!
 
#1,318 ·
In case anyone is interested here is what the full color checker SG looks like when you open the gamut up to include the entire CIE 31 colorspace



Here's what it looks like when you have to clamp it down to DCI



And Rec709




You can see since the color definitions are stored in CalMAN as XYZ, the colors stay in the same place although the ones that are out of gamut get clipped to the edge of the gamut.
 
#1,319 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23168271


I agree that we could do a better job with written materials.


We poured many hours into the content for our tutorial workflows, but it would be good to go back through and get more of it into the actual help file (there is one you know). Once the content is in the help system, it can be printed or we could even produce a pdf version.


Our goal has always been to allow someone with no color science background to use our app and get started. Then as their interest and knowledge grows they can explore more and more of the features in the app. But approachability for a new user is very important to us, and is something where I think we can still do better.

I think the basics are pretty well covered (even though all the info might not be in one place) but detailed explanations of the more advanced controls/options would be a welcome addition... especially features that are more recent additions like saturation and luminance sweeps and the colorchecker and so on. That being said support via the SpectraCal forum and this one is prompt and very helpful, especially if you have a very specific question.
 
#1,320 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23169001


In case anyone is interested here is what the full color checker SG looks like when you open the gamut up to include the entire CIE 31 colorspace



Here's what it looks like when you have to clamp it down to DCI



And Rec709




You can see since the color definitions are stored in CalMAN as XYZ, the colors stay in the same place although the ones that are out of gamut get clipped to the edge of the gamut.

That looks very comprehensive but unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to use it, since I still display patterns manually on my PS3/BD player via calibration discs and manually going through 100 patterns would be a nightmare.


Is there any way I can use my laptop as a pattern generator reliably or should I just stick to the 24-pt colorchecker?


Also, are tools like the saturation and luminance sweeps and the colorchecker useful for setting color/tint or are they only for those with a CMS and/or external video processor? My setup isn't centered around a HTPC, so I have no access to 3DLUTs.
 
#1,321 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23169171


Is there any way I can use my laptop as a pattern generator reliably or should I just stick to the 24-pt colorchecker?
You can use your laptop, and a perfect way to test it would be to run a disc with the colorchecker swatches and compare the results to a run with your laptop.


Some laptops can be configured to output reference levels, some can't, sometimes when you update drivers what used to work will break. The only way to verify it in the field is to compare it to a known source, or in the lab with a waveform monitor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23169171


also, are tools like the saturation and luminance sweeps and the colochecker useful for setting color/tint or are they only for those with a CMS and/or external video processor? My setup isn't centered around a HTPC, so I have no access to 3DLUTs.

They absolutely can be helpful. If you put up a deH and deL chart you can use the color and tint controls to try and find the best average error. I pulled out the fleshtones from the SG set and included them as a custom pattern set, so you could just run that sweep of 15 or so colors to try and optimize just for fleshtones. You're going to be making subjective choices for what to optimize for if you only have a color and tint control.
 
#1,322 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23169171


That looks very comprehensive but unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to use it, since I still display patterns manually on my PS3/BD player via calibration discs and manually going through 100 patterns would be a nightmare.


Is there any way I can use my laptop as a pattern generator reliably or should I just stick to the 24-pt colorchecker?


Also, are tools like the saturation and luminance sweeps and the colorchecker useful for setting color/tint or are they only for those with a CMS and/or external video processor? My setup isn't centered around a HTPC, so I have no access to 3DLUTs.

Indeed, it has been long recognized that this level of measurement/calibration isn't practical to do manually. It would be a nightmare.


There has been much discussion about using PC video cards as pattern generators and responses to that question range from "Almost impossible to guarantee accuracy, especially when you update a video driver." to "When I compare my laptop's output to the Radiance, it's virtually identical." So, the jury's out on that one as far as I can tell.


You can use saturation and luminance sweeps and the color checker to measure your display's performance. You could also possibly make things better by twiddling the available controls, but IMHO, attempting to adjust it with limited controls wouldn't be worth it.


EDIT: I just saw that Joel thinks it would be worth adjusting, so go with what he says!
 
#1,323 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23168100


This statement was fine a few years ago! But, now days, you're out selling product to New Users, Amateurs, etc, not just to the `Been to 3 Years of Schooling' for this.' More and more home users are now buying your products and getting familiar to having a more than `Out of the Box' experience with their sets. So, I think that with more of the Home Users now becoming a larger part of your clientel, some adjustments have to be made. To do so, will again, increase sales to this market.

You can see my sig for a basic walkthrough I put together for the first-time calibrator.
 
#1,324 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti  /t/1423111/calman-5-release-notes-and-discussion/1290#post_23168271


I agree that we could do a better job with written materials.


We poured many hours into the content for our tutorial workflows, but it would be good to go back through and get more of it into the actual help file (there is one you know). Once the content is in the help system, it can be printed or we could even produce a pdf version.


Our goal has always been to allow someone with no color science background to use our app and get started. Then as their interest and knowledge grows they can explore more and more of the features in the app. But approachability for a new user is very important to us, and is something where I think we can still do better.

I think a PDF walkthrough would be great. I found hopping in and out of the help menus clumsy within the app itself as a complete newbie. I tried to put together a quick basic-one for new users in the mold of other tutorials I found on forums. Something official would be nice.
 
#1,326 ·
Greyscale done, and was tighter, with only about 5 minutes of DDC to fine tune. Currently doing the 125 Point - now where is that 96 Colours part for me to look for when I go back upstairs?

Ran a reading with the C6 first, and thought that my readings sure went out of calibration since my last run, but then did the profile off the i1Pro, and now the readings were all well back to within normal change rates. Can't believe the differences between the C6 and C6 profiled off the i1Pro! Is it all those 3360 LEDs in the Backlight throwing the C6 that far off?

Found the 96 Colours - keep forgetting about that little icon in the Upper Right Corner - problem was, it was now 1:30AM - will try again tomorrow night.
 
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