CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 55 - AVS Forum
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post #1621 of 2442 Old 05-24-2013, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praz View Post

Reference patterns are only affected by the PC/Video level setting on the output side of the Radiance. If the Radiance is being used to calibrate grayscale/CMS the patterns would never change when the grascale/CMS settings are adjusted. The adjustable patterns reflect these changes and is what CalMAN uses by default.

Yes you are right, I was thinking about the large profiles (3375 using CM or 4913 using LS) and how I would setup the Radiance as a pattern generator only.

I am sorry for confusing this issue when using the Radiance for both a pattern generator and a storage/processor, as it clearly states.

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post #1622 of 2442 Old 05-24-2013, 11:44 AM
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In most cases and by default CalMAN uses the Radiance patterns in A mode vs. R mode. Adjustable and Reference. You would only need to enable Reference if you are using the Radiance as a standalone pattern generator for another device.

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post #1623 of 2442 Old 05-25-2013, 08:24 AM
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New Calman 5.1.1 Release 1227 - Greyscale AutoCal still about the same at 20 Minutes. 3D LUT 125 Point AutoCal - 30 Minutes now down to about 23.
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post #1624 of 2442 Old 05-25-2013, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

New Calman 5.1.1 Release 1227 - Greyscale AutoCal still about the same at 20 Minutes. 3D LUT 125 Point AutoCal - 30 Minutes now down to about 23.

My 21 pt. grayscale takes about 3.5 minutes. It just rips through, easily less that 1 sec per reading on average. But I have a target of 0.5 dE.
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post #1625 of 2442 Old 05-25-2013, 12:49 PM
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Greyscale results not so even in this new release. Spent an hour with the DDC Control to flatten! Left at `0 dE'
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post #1626 of 2442 Old 05-25-2013, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

My 21 pt. grayscale takes about 3.5 minutes. It just rips through, easily less that 1 sec per reading on average. But I have a target of 0.5 dE.

Thanks - changed to .5 from 0 - Now AutoCal Greyscale was 4.5 Minutes with better results, and with 20 minutes of DDC to Flatten.
Quite a Difference from 20 Minutes, erratic results and 1 hour DDC to Flatten.
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post #1627 of 2442 Old 05-25-2013, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Thanks - changed to .5 from 0 - Now AutoCal Greyscale was 4.5 Minutes with better results, and with 20 minutes of DDC to Flatten.
Quite a Difference from 20 Minutes, erratic results and 1 hour DDC to Flatten.

Ha... you're more patient than I. I use zero minutes of DCC to flatten! I've lost my love of fiddling. But I guess you're after that "error budget"?

Glad you're getting better results. Yeah... a .5dE makes CalMAN less neurotic.
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post #1628 of 2442 Old 05-26-2013, 06:59 AM
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Sotti said that the software now defaults to a non-zero value (0.5 dE) but our previously entered value could be persisting. I am surprised that it would persist across SW updates, but I'm not sure because I never left it at 0.

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post #1629 of 2442 Old 05-26-2013, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

Ha... you're more patient than I. I use zero minutes of DCC to flatten! I've lost my love of fiddling. But I guess you're after that "error budget"?

Glad you're getting better results. Yeah... a .5dE makes CalMAN less neurotic.

Go back and re-do the AutoCal Greyscale and it flattens even better after the 125 Point. Problem now is, now you have to redo the 125 Point. But as the Performance and speed have come up, it makes it more doable in the same time as previously only doing it once.

Finished testing tonight. Will now go back and use the i1Pro Enhanced for Profiling, but in the Direct LCD Menu, not the (LED Backlight) selection. The Non-enhanced i1Pro I've been using, gave me the same SM WB readings, but the 2 Point, off the Main Menu, was not as good.
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post #1630 of 2442 Old 05-26-2013, 12:52 PM
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Hi all,

I'm a first time user of Calman and I had a frustrating experience trying to calibrate my Panasonic VT50 with AutoCal last night. I'm not new to calibration as I have used both HCFR and ChromaPure over the past 6 years or so but this was my first attempt at auto calibration. Hoping I can get some help or guidance on some of the problems I had. I have Calman 5 Control and I was using a retail version of the i1 Display Pro. (I did profile the Display Pro with my i1 Pro for my first run, but decided not to use the profile for subsequent runs after having problems with grayscale readings). My pattern source was an AVS v2.0 BD disc run on my Panasonic BD player with manual control of the player. I did connect my VT50 via Ethernet with no problem and was calibrating using ISF Night mode. Here is a summary of the problems I encountered:

1) Could achieve no better than 3% DE with either 2pt and/or 10pt grayscale. The target was set at .5% DE and I even tried 0% DE but the program seemed to think the setting was 3%, based on the results. When I ran 10pt, the number of readings to completion was only in the low 20's. I could see the program making improvements initially at a particular stimulus but it would eventually click away for another half minute or so with no visible improvement.
2) CMS worked well in terms of Hue and Saturation, but I had some significant luminance errors. I used the 75% stimulus setting and selected the 75% patterns on the AVS disc. Several colors had off the chart high luminance readings. Wish I could specify which colors (see problem #4).
3) After completing the calibration, I tried to save the session and generate a report. The session did save but would not generate any reports.
4) When attempting to view a saved session, I get the following error: "The workflow you selected is not licensed for this product". So I can't view or post my results. All my work appears to be gone even though I do have the saved calibration files on my laptop.
5) For 2pt grayscale, I selected "30,100" but program kept calling for 30 & 80.

Some specific questions I have:
A) The workflow doesn't appear to directly accommodate running 2pt and then 10pt grayscale, but I discovered it is possible to do so. With a display like the VT50 that is capable of both 2pt and 10pt adjustments, should both be used or just skip the 2pt ?
B) Is it possible to re-run 10pt a second time with AutoCal to get better results or will the software reset the grayscale ? I thought AutoCal would automatically run more than one pass if needed to achieve the specified DE, but it did one pass only on every run I attempted. Is this a limitation of manual control ?
C) Is it possible to use DDC on the VT50 to adjust a mode other than ISF Day or ISF Night ? I would like to try a completely manual calibration using custom mode. I do have ControlCal, so I guess I could use it for display control instead of the Calman DDC.

Thanks for any help in advance. I'm hoping perhaps I missed some simple setting(s) up front that may fix some or all of these issues.

Sean
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post #1631 of 2442 Old 05-26-2013, 09:54 PM
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Calibration stuff I noticed on the VT50.
You really want to do 2 point first, then do the 10 point for grayscale and you'll want to start from warm2. Gamma may need to be changed to 2.4 in the set to properly calibrate at 2.2 target gamma. You might want to use a medium APL Pluge pattern to set brightness, (medium APL meaning with some brighter content, not just a black and near black pattern). Even when using a CMS, you should adjust the tint/color controls first if you've got bigger errors in your measured gamut.

What version of CalMAN are you using, and which workflow did you do the calibration with?
Quote:
A) The workflow doesn't appear to directly accommodate running 2pt and then 10pt grayscale, but I discovered it is possible to do so. With a display like the VT50 that is capable of both 2pt and 10pt adjustments, should both be used or just skip the 2pt ?
I would use the HT Advanced workflow for the grayscale work, it's got the best tools for starting your calibration. Our dynamic range checker, 2-point with autocal, 10-point with autocal are all in there. Just open the left hand panel and you can jumpt to the steps you need.
Quote:
B) Is it possible to re-run 10pt a second time with AutoCal to get better results or will the software reset the grayscale ? I thought AutoCal would automatically run more than one pass if needed to achieve the specified DE, but it did one pass only on every run I attempted. Is this a limitation of manual control ?
Each grayscale run restarts to a known state, so re-running the calibration should yield nearly identical results. But in most of the 5.1.1 builds, we should be doing a multiple pass strategy for both 2-point and 10-point calibrations.
Quote:
C) Is it possible to use DDC on the VT50 to adjust a mode other than ISF Day or ISF Night ? I would like to try a completely manual calibration using custom mode. I do have ControlCal, so I guess I could use it for display control instead of the Calman DDC.
Unfortunately we don't have access to the non-isf modes.

Joel Barsotti
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post #1632 of 2442 Old 05-26-2013, 10:26 PM
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stash64,

safe yourself frustration and do not use CM DDC... it is useless and mega buggy... I ran into huge issues with it this week and had to resort to getting ControlCal, which is hands down the way better tool anyway...

CM DDC pretended it had written a value to the set, while it didn't... over time it messed up a lot of settings.. closing CM and re-opening then sometimes showed actual values on the set, but not all the time... useless, there is no error control... this has been reported in the past...

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post #1633 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

stash64,

safe yourself frustration and do not use CM DDC... it is useless and mega buggy... I ran into huge issues with it this week and had to resort to getting ControlCal, which is hands down the way better tool anyway...

CM DDC pretended it had written a value to the set, while it didn't... over time it messed up a lot of settings.. closing CM and re-opening then sometimes showed actual values on the set, but not all the time... useless, there is no error control... this has been reported in the past...

We haven't duplicating that behavior with the latest releases. The one that was just released on friday should be very well behaved.

Joel Barsotti
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post #1634 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

We haven't duplicating that behavior with the latest releases. The one that was just released on friday should be very well behaved.

Hi Joel,

Have noticed that if I put values in to any of the fields (rather than use the arrow) then no movement is seen corresponding to anticipated change.
Slight change via arrow gives the then full anticipated change.
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post #1635 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

We haven't duplicating that behavior with the latest releases. The one that was just released on friday should be very well behaved.

the problem did not occur for months on the general ISF settings page (color space, brightness etc.)... problem occurred on CMS & Gamma pages...

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post #1636 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 10:33 AM
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Do some of you actually go to quick analysis workflow to calibrate your systems?

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post #1637 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 12:18 PM
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Joel... thanks for the tips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Calibration stuff I noticed on the VT50.
You really want to do 2 point first, then do the 10 point for grayscale and you'll want to start from warm2..

That's what I thought. I ended up doing it both ways (10pt only, then 2pt & 10pt) and did not notice any significant difference in outcome. The software did one pass only at each stimulus and the end result was an average DE of only 3%. The workflow does not promote running both 2pt and 10pt. If I select and run 2pt and then click next, I'm taken to the gamma section. I think the workflow should let you select 2pt "&" 10pt up front, so that clicking next takes you from 2pt to 10pt with the gamma section to follow. I was running the HT Advanced workflow. I did notice an odd behavior when running the grayscale. The program would call for the same stimulus 2 or 3 times, after which it would click away as if in continuous mode. During this time, it seemed ineffective (no improvements in color balance) and I noticed that the ISF Night display at the bottom of the screen would flick away from 0 to 100 IRE as if there was a grayscale sweep in progress... but of course I was displaying just the one stimulus with manual control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Gamma may need to be changed to 2.4 in the set to properly calibrate at 2.2 target gamma. You might want to use a medium APL Pluge pattern to set brightness, (medium APL meaning with some brighter content, not just a black and near black pattern). Even when using a CMS, you should adjust the tint/color controls first if you've got bigger errors in your measured gamut.

I did try the 2.4 gamma setting initially, but the software seemed to struggle to bring the gamma down to 2.2, so I tried 2.2 as the initial setting and got a more accurate gamma result. However, I do know from my calibration using ChromaPure that 2.4 is more accurate, at least in Custom mode. I will look at an APL brightness pattern on a future calibration and also try pre-setting color to 45. Tint is best at 0 but my initial readings with ChromaPure did show more accurate luminance at 45 versus the default 50.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

What version of CalMAN are you using, and which workflow did you do the calibration with?
I would use the HT Advanced workflow for the grayscale work, it's got the best tools for starting your calibration. Our dynamic range checker, 2-point with autocal, 10-point with autocal are all in there. Just open the left hand panel and you can jumpt to the steps you need.

I was running 5.1.0.1130 and HT Advanced workflow. When I check for a new version, it shows as the latest. Is 5.1.1 a Beta ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Each grayscale run restarts to a known state, so re-running the calibration should yield nearly identical results. But in most of the 5.1.1 builds, we should be doing a multiple pass strategy for both 2-point and 10-point calibrations.

Will it run multi-pass with manual control ? If so, is there a setting I need to select to ensure multi-pass is active ? As I mentioned, the program was definitely only running a single pass.

Sean
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post #1638 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

stash64,

safe yourself frustration and do not use CM DDC... it is useless and mega buggy... I ran into huge issues with it this week and had to resort to getting ControlCal, which is hands down the way better tool anyway...

CM DDC pretended it had written a value to the set, while it didn't... over time it messed up a lot of settings.. closing CM and re-opening then sometimes showed actual values on the set, but not all the time... useless, there is no error control... this has been reported in the past...

Are you suppose to actually see the ISF settings on the VT50 ? After running through the calibration, all I see is a grayed out "ISF Fixed" for all the basic settings and the same for the Pro menu option on the TV. This is why I wanted to use custom mode. I would prefer to still be able to manually tweak (and see) the actual settings without having to resort to ControlCal or DCC. It does make me a little suspicious if I can't see the settings.

I guess I will have to hook the TV up to ControlCal and see what changes were actually made. Calman's DCC was showing the changes, but now I wonder if these changes actually got communicated to the TV.

Sean
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post #1639 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Do some of you actually go to quick analysis workflow to calibrate your systems?

Yes, I used to use this one until I got into the 3D Cube LUT. It was nice and quick. I also enjoyed seeing more of the numbers under the hood - in particular the Luminance (Y) values helped me weed out spurious garbage readings when dealing with very low light.

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post #1640 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

I was running 5.1.0.1130 and HT Advanced workflow. When I check for a new version, it shows as the latest. Is 5.1.1 a Beta ?
Will it run multi-pass with manual control ? If so, is there a setting I need to select to ensure multi-pass is active ? As I mentioned, the program was definitely only running a single pass.

5.1.0 does not have the multi-pass algorithm.
5.1.1 went up as the official release thursday, so it's very new as an official release but is available as a direct download from the website.. The update does do multipass for both 10 point and 2 point and can even do gamut autocal for saturation, so it's all quite new compared to 5.1.0.

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post #1641 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

5.1.0 does not have the multi-pass algorithm.
5.1.1 went up as the official release thursday, so it's very new as an official release but is available as a direct download from the website.. The update does do multipass for both 10 point and 2 point and can even do gamut autocal for saturation, so it's all quite new compared to 5.1.0.

Does it do multi-pass for 21 point?

And, I thought "gamut autocal for saturation" was one of the things that the 125 point gamut auto-cal was all about! I know I'm not understanding something. What am I missing?
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post #1642 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

Does it do multi-pass for 21 point?

And, I thought "gamut autocal for saturation" was one of the things that the 125 point gamut auto-cal was all about! I know I'm not understanding something. What am I missing?

Multi-pass is only for sets that have unaligned grayscale, ie 70 percent effects 60, 70, and 80%. The radiance is correctly aligned where an adjustment at 70% has no effect at 60 or 80.

Gamut saturation AutoCal uses the single adjustment node of a traditional CMS, but you can choose the saturation and luminance level you want to make the adjustment at. If you don't have linear saturation you can't fix that with this type of calibration, where you can with a 3D LUT. What this addresses is centering the error so that you have a lower average error.

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post #1643 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Multi-pass is only for sets that have unaligned grayscale, ie 70 percent effects 60, 70, and 80%. The radiance is correctly aligned where an adjustment at 70% has no effect at 60 or 80.

Gamut saturation AutoCal uses the single adjustment node of a traditional CMS, but you can choose the saturation and luminance level you want to make the adjustment at. If you don't have linear saturation you can't fix that with this type of calibration, where you can with a 3D LUT. What this addresses is centering the error so that you have a lower average error.

Thank you! (especially on Memorial Day... sheesh...)
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Hey Joel,

Thanks for taking time on the Memorial Day weekend to answer questions.

Just wanted to let you know that I downloaded and installed the latest version (5.1.1) and it fixed several of the problems I had. I can now open and view the sessions I ran and even view the final report. I also realized that I was reading Gamut Luminance wrong on the "Post Calibration View" page. I thought I was reading error and did not realize the chart was set to read absolute. I changed to the relative setting and the gamut luminance actually looks pretty good. So my problems seem to be narrowed down to poor grayscale and gamma. I'm hoping and expect that the multi-pass will make the difference.

Sean
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post #1645 of 2442 Old 05-27-2013, 09:56 PM
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Ok I am having an issue with the auto control of the Sony BD player using the AVS disc during autocalc. The Sony BD player runs the color windows for I assume the time the chapter is. Autocalc needs more time on the chapter. Does the auto source pause the BD player or is there a setting I am missing something??
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post #1646 of 2442 Old 05-28-2013, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smc View Post

Ok I am having an issue with the auto control of the Sony BD player using the AVS disc during autocalc. The Sony BD player runs the color windows for I assume the time the chapter is. Autocalc needs more time on the chapter. Does the auto source pause the BD player or is there a setting I am missing something??

How do you do that? I did not know autocal can control your player.

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post #1647 of 2442 Old 05-28-2013, 12:39 PM
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there is an IR controller available from Spectracal. But You also need to have a supported calibration disc (pattern disc).

http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/accessories/calman-infrared-controller.html
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post #1648 of 2442 Old 05-28-2013, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smc View Post

Ok I am having an issue with the auto control of the Sony BD player using the AVS disc during autocalc. The Sony BD player runs the color windows for I assume the time the chapter is. Autocalc needs more time on the chapter. Does the auto source pause the BD player or is there a setting I am missing something??

There aren't any additional settings currently.

You may have to revert to using manual control as a work around.

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SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
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post #1649 of 2442 Old 05-28-2013, 05:23 PM
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Official Release: CalMAN 5.1.1 Build 1230, Released Thursday, May 28, 2013

New Features

•Added support for the Panasonic 60 series displays. This includes:
◦US/Canada: zt/vt/wt/dt
◦EU: zt/vt/gt/wt/dt/ft
◦NZ/Asia: vt/wt/dt
•Added support for the DCI/P3 Gamut (CCFL) target display type for the C6 meter. This is for the FSI monitors.
•Support added for the CalMAN Client III Generator.
•Improved AutoCal™ process for Panasonic displays. Contrast and Brightness no longer have to be set at their default settings.
•Improved AutoCal™ process for Sharp Elite. Note: Contrast must be set to max and the gamut mode must be set to Standard.
•Updated DVDO Duo support to use native controls
•Added a check box for Use Reference Patterns on the Source tab for the Lumagen Radiance.
•Full DDC controls for the Video Forge I and II have been added under the Sources tab.
•Added a 2 point grayscale specific command for AutoCal™. This has been set on all shipping workflows which have AutoCal™ support on the 2pt grayscale layouts.
•AutoCal™ now supports CMS calibrations at multiple saturation and luminance levels. Options available will depend upon the capabilities of the pattern generator. This is currently available in the Quick Analysis Workflow.
•Added Balance White Luminance advanced option for Cube AutoCal™. Unchecking this option means that CalMAN will make sacrifice overall DeltaE in order to preserve overall luminance.
•Increased performance speed for AutoCal™
•ColorChecker has now been expanded to include many options, including custom color patches. Selections are available under Options for the layout. Custom patches can be created in the Custom Color Set Editor found under the Start Menu.
•Made modification to the slider bar to make it easier to determine which pattern is selected.
•Added the capability to create conditional buttons. This allows for If/Else statements in a button command.
•Create ICC Profile can now be added as a button command
•When in design mode, you can now put a text box into edit mode by double clicking on it.
•Added a Title on the properties panel to identify which element's properties you are looking at.
•Added a list of layout items on properties on the tab when in design mode. This makes it easy to see what elements are on a layout and their placement.

Resolved Issues

•Basic, Control, and Enthusiast licenses can now again open their saved data files
•Resolved issue where the RGB Balance chart would change its run type if its properties were open when a read series was changing run types. For example, you might see this on a Pre Calibration layout if the properties panel for the chart was open when it switched from Grayscale to Gamut readings.
•The Display matching tool now gives positive feedback on verification if all displays are within tolerance.
•CalMAN will no longer crash if you try to start a cube AutoCal™ with a Source that does not support RGB triplets
•Pass/Fail indicators are now pulling data from the specified data source.
•Pass/Fail indicators are now correct on loaded data files.
•The right side panel will now scroll vertically if the window size is smaller than content
•Resolved issue where installer would accept the .NET partial install while .NET full install is required for CalMAN to run. Installer will now detect this properly and prompt where needed.
•Various stability fixes
•CMS DDC Reset should now be resetting to native values.
•Datafield for the source Window Size now works properly if your source is a DVD.
•Resolved typo on the CalMAN Cube generator for the CSV format.
•Resolved issue with the customer database where a new entry for a display would assign itself to the default customer record unless a session with the current customer record had been started.
•Resolved issue where the drop down for Option/Nominal Levels datafield would incorrectly read SelectorVideo and SelectorPC instead of just Video and PC.
•Resolved an issue where if there was a DDC string control with dependencies, it would not be properly enumerated and would not show up in the list
•Resolved issue in the Levels Editor where 30 and 70 would appear as 30.2 and 70.2 after saving
•Resolved issue where the Workflow.ReviousTab and Workflow.NextTab command were not properly switching tabs.
•Resolved an localization issue with data grid scaling
•Resolved issue where user data fields were not restoring properly and would show as defaults.
•CalMAN will now properly handle things if the K10 auto ranges multiple times during the course of a reading.

Known Issues

•CalMAN will give an error if you go to change the pattern size before initializing a DPG. It affects the DPG-1000/1200/1400/2000.
•Some users might see an error on upgrade or uninstall about being unable to remove a shortcut.
•Mouse overs on graphs which have a target line (such as Gamma and Color temperature) are not currently working
•When a meter has a Units selection option, CalMAN does not display any notes that may be available for that meter
•When saving a workflow over an existing uncompressed workflow, that workflow will save as uncompressed.
•CalMAN is not always able to change modes in the DDC controls with the JVC RS50. Work around is to select the desired display mode in the projector prior to connection.
•There is an issue with DVDO VP50 as pattern generator

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #1650 of 2442 Old 05-28-2013, 05:44 PM
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So with Calman 5 'Control'($299), a SpectraCal C3 Meter($149) and a reference Pattern Disc I'll beable to do the following with my Panasonic S30 1080p Plasma in Custom & Game mode?

~Tone down the crazy bright whites (The S30 apperantly has a 2 point white system Vs the ST30's 10 point)
~Correct the white clipping
~Get the default/optionless High Gamma towards 'Medium'
~Correct the Red Push/Sun Burnt Skin
~Correct the Sevre Pink/Magneta Push
~Improve grey scale

If So, i'll be absolutely extatic! I refuse to actually sit down and watch a movie all the way through on my 60" S30 with all of the problems above as it makes for one harsh, unatural, distracting and unimerssive experience...Once somebody confirms that the following above can be corrected or definitly improved on i'm going to splurge and get the Calman 5 control, C3 metre and reference pattern Disc once my next pay check comes in.
Should be possible right?
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