CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 91 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2701 of 2790 Old 05-16-2015, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Are you saying that a dE76 error of 3 is as visible as a dE2000 error of 3?

Or does that mean a dE76 error of 3 is as visible as a dE2000 error of 1?

I guess I assumed that internal to Calman, whenever you switched dE formulas, that 3 still remained the visible threshold. What I'm getting from this discussion is that it never was that way and that the green dE 3 line was only correct with dE76. Is that what we're saying?
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post #2702 of 2790 Old 05-16-2015, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Or does that mean a dE76 error of 3 is as visible as a dE2000 error of 1?

I guess I assumed that internal to Calman, whenever you switched dE formulas, that 3 still remained the visible threshold. What I'm getting from this discussion is that it never was that way and that the green dE 3 line was only correct with dE76. Is that what we're saying?

Well, that's what I'm saying, not what Sotti is suggesting

AFAIK Calman never adjusted the threshold according to the formula, 3 was absolute 3 in the formula used in the chart. IMHO, it was a good threshold for older formulas (like dE76), not so good for dE94 where a dE of 2 could be visible, and not good at all with dE2000 where a dE of 3 could be very obvious.

I guess it made sense to wait until we had the means (ie 3D LUTs and great autocal) to bring most dEs below 1 dE2000 before making this the new visible dE threshold, but people kept using the 3dE threshold as if was always relevant, irrespective of the dE formula used.

For example, "green" in cine4home gamut charts means "below 3dE2000", which doesn't tell us much about the color accuracy of the display except for the most blatant errors. I keep bugging Ekki about that but he doesn't seem to mind. It certainly makes the PJs (and their internal CMS) look better than they would if he used the new thresholds in Calman (below 1 for good, up to 3 for ok and bad above 5), which are much better.

I'm glad the new targets reflect this in Calman's charts, as dE2000 is now the default in Calman.

I guess Sotti is saying that adjusting these thresholds to make them more relevant for dE2000 doesn't make them wrong for the older formulas, as 1 was their visible threshold as well in theory, even if that's not what some of us observed in practice.

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post #2703 of 2790 Old 05-16-2015, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Are you saying that a dE76 error of 3 is as visible as a dE2000 error of 3?
That depends both on which dE76 coordinates you use (uv or ab) and the magnitude of dE and where in the gamut the comparison is done. On average a dE76 JND is larger than a dE2000 JND by about of factor of 1.5 for dE values in the 1-2 range and can get as high as a factor of 4 for larger values of dE and some areas of the gamut.

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post #2704 of 2790 Old 05-16-2015, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
That depends both on which dE76 coordinates you use (uv or ab) and the magnitude of dE and where in the gamut the comparison is done. On average a dE76 JND is larger than a dE2000 JND by about of factor of 1.5 for dE values in the 1-2 range and can get as high as a factor of 4 for larger values of dE and some areas of the gamut.

thanks, that's exactly what I meant
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post #2705 of 2790 Old 05-16-2015, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Are you saying that a dE76 error of 3 is as visible as a dE2000 error of 3?
It all depends on the actual color.

If you take 100% white Lab 100, 0, 0 as your target and Lab 100, 2.15, 2.15 as your sample, de76 and 94 both agree as a dE of 3 and dE00 reports 3.5, not a very big difference in number. So yes there are certainly instances where dE2000 and dE76 agree.

The closer to neutral the more the two formulas agree, the more saturated a color, the larger the difference. OTOH we typically used dE94 for gamut even back in CalMAN 3 and 4 and dE94 closely agrees with dE00.

This change is more about how we want to present information and what we consider to be good enough, than interpreting dE formulas.
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post #2706 of 2790 Old 05-16-2015, 10:59 AM
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How about getting everything as close to the Zero Line as possible?
If my results were at 3, I'd definitely have another go at it until under 1.5, better still under 1!
Also is the time factor - sure I can get 3s in an hour, but to get the absolute best possible results, closer to 4 hours!
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post #2707 of 2790 Old 05-17-2015, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
How about getting everything as close to the Zero Line as possible?
If my results were at 3, I'd definitely have another go at it until under 1.5, better still under 1!
Also is the time factor - sure I can get 3s in an hour, but to get the absolute best possible results, closer to 4 hours!
Because automated calibration is is faster when we are not worried about getting as close to 0 as possible and instead just focus on getting it under the threshold where its not noticeable. Likewise sometimes I can manually tweak a grayscale or gamma to get it from say 0.95 to 0.35. Is that even worth the 5-15 minutes of playing around if its impossible to notice a difference. To me its not but others may feel differently.
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post #2708 of 2790 Old 05-17-2015, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01
Are you saying that a dE76 error of 3 is as visible as a dE2000 error of 3?



Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post
It all depends on the actual color.
Is not a compensation mechanism within the formulas that compensates for saturation or other elements so that a user can say above a certain value is visible and needs further correction. We're suppose to know that below 1 is good for one color and below X is good for another?
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post #2709 of 2790 Old 05-17-2015, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Is not a compensation mechanism within the formulas that compensates for saturation or other elements so that a user can say above a certain value is visible and needs further correction. We're suppose to know that below 1 is good for one color and below X is good for another?
No, he was saying the difference between the formulas (dE94,00) vs. older ones depends on the color. Both dE94 and dE00 are much more uniform than previous color difference formulas so that a JND (dE = 1) holds over a broader range of colors.
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post #2710 of 2790 Old 05-17-2015, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
No, he was saying the difference between the formulas (dE94,00) vs. older ones depends on the color. Both dE94 and dE00 are much more uniform than previous color difference formulas so that a JND (dE = 1) holds over a broader range of colors.
And to extend that comment below visible error, or under 1 has always been the goal. With any of the dE standards 76, 94, 2000 when they are under 1, all of the formulas also start approaching 1.

So we always recommended dE2000 because the meaning of 1 dE is the most consistent.

We will likely have an enhancement coming soon to help people interpret the chart.
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post #2711 of 2790 Old 05-18-2015, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Because automated calibration is is faster when we are not worried about getting as close to 0 as possible and instead just focus on getting it under the threshold where its not noticeable. Likewise sometimes I can manually tweak a grayscale or gamma to get it from say 0.95 to 0.35. Is that even worth the 5-15 minutes of playing around if its impossible to notice a difference. To me its not but others may feel differently.
I've been finding the Grayscale Autocal on my Samsung UN65HU9000 very inconsistent, in that it drives the Autocal nuts! (*)
Have taken to adjusting this set this way:
All 2/10 Point and Custom Color set to Factory defaults.
Service Menu 2 Point and ADC Results adjusted to get the closest to the Zero Line as possible, with Gamma set to Zero. (Hours the first time!)
Now adjust Normal 10 Point to get it fine tuned to Zero. Then the DDC Control to get the out of line 5%ers. (Radiance XE-3D)
Adjust CMS closest to the Zero Line as possible.
Then the 125 Point 3D LUT Autocal. (Which is now working far better on Build # 1935)

Why this way? The adjusting of the Radiance is fine for all the Inputs it handles, but this does not help any TV, additional Input/s, or Apps being run on the actual set.

* - If you set to one point ie 90% - and take readings, it will take 5 to 6 readings before you get a finalized reading. I assume this is why it drives the AutoCal crazy? Have also now taken to setting my Samsung PN64F8500 the same way, for the same reason. (I set the HU9000 for 10 sample readings, but the max I could go on the F8500 was 5.)
Another issue here as well was, taking constant reading of one point, would not be the same as a complete reading of all the points, hence I try to do ALL the points for each scan sweep. On my LG sets, no issues with single point versus all points.

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post #2712 of 2790 Old 05-18-2015, 03:23 PM
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Is this a required step still when creating a 3dlut using the lumagen(2143 in my case), should I be doing this prior to running thru the 3dlut workflow ?

Radiance CMS Luminance Level Setup
1. In CalMAN, first load the "SI Advanced" workflow.
2. On the Hardware Connect page, click the Find Source button, select “Lumagen – Radiance series,” then click Connect.
3. On the Hardware Connect page, click the Find Processor/Display button, select "Lumagen – Radiance 3D LUT fw 091612 or later,” then click Connect.  Skip to the CMS Calibration page:
4. On the SI Advanced workflow CMS Calibration page, first click the Read Series button to measure the performance of the primary and secondary colors.
5. Click through the color level select tabs for the six primary and secondary colors to note which color has the lowest DeltaL.
6. Click the Read Continuous button and equally decrease the Radiance CMS White Level SubR, SubB, and SubG controls. Decrease the White Level controls equally, while watching the DeltaL measurement for the lowest color, until it reaches the 0 point on the DeltaL chart.

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First question is:
#1 - Are all video presentations going to be coming from the Radiance?
If so, proceed as you've explained.
#2 - Are there going to be actual viewing of TV Channels, Apps and possibly other Video Inputs going directly to the set?
If so, the TV will have to be calibrated to the best it can be, before working on calibrating the Radiance. (2/10 Point, CMS, plus other options.)
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post #2714 of 2790 Old 05-18-2015, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
First question is:
#1 - Are all video presentations going to be coming from the Radiance?
If so, proceed as you've explained.
#2 - Are there going to be actual viewing of TV Channels, Apps and possibly other Video Inputs going directly to the set?
If so, the TV will have to be calibrated to the best it can be, before working on calibrating the Radiance. (2/10 Point, CMS, plus other options.)

1. Yes
2. No


So the luminance adjustment is required prior to executing the cube workflow ? Please confirm

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post #2715 of 2790 Old 05-18-2015, 04:31 PM
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No that's just old info.

Pre 3D-LUT the CMS was closer to the panel, so using it as a course white balance helped maximize the bit usage.

With 3D LUTs, it's reversed and the 1D LUT now needs the CMS to be neutral to calibrate correctly.

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post #2716 of 2790 Old 05-18-2015, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post
No that's just old info.

Pre 3D-LUT the CMS was closer to the panel, so using it as a course white balance helped maximize the bit usage.

With 3D LUTs, it's reversed and the 1D LUT now needs the CMS to be neutral to calibrate correctly.
Thanks for the clarification, one follow-up question do the luminance and saturation data-points or any other parameters need to be changed prior to running the lut ? The original question orginated because it is in the Lumagen LUT documentation on your site.

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post #2717 of 2790 Old 05-19-2015, 09:25 AM
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Question has come up:
Are Gains and Offsets (H and L, etc) 100 and 30%, or 80 and 20%, or does it have to do with what that particular manufacturer is using as reference?

Addendum:
Easy answer - change the Offset, etc and check which % point changes. Offset changed 30% on my Samsungs, Gain the 100%.
My LG SM Offset changes, showed NO changes in the Normal 10 Point, nor 2 Point, Gains the 100%

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post #2718 of 2790 Old 05-19-2015, 12:17 PM
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Question has come up:
Are Gains and Offsets (H and L, etc) 100 and 30%, or 80 and 20%, or does it have to do with what that particular manufacturer is using as reference?
They both effect the whole range.

Gains see their biggest change closest to 100%, Offsets see their biggest changes as you get closer to black.

So those are the raw tools, Where you measure them changes with how you are using them.

If you only have 2 point control, 30/80 does a good job of averaging out the error.

If it's combined with multi-point you want to focus them closer to the edge So 100 or 109 for the gains and 20% or lower for the offsets.

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Question regarding step by step autocal with lumagen.

I have a LG 9300 OLED. It has agressive ABL that seems to dim the light output after some time. Not sure the exact time but in tens of seconds to mins. It does seem like it detects that a changing pattern is still a static pattern and dims it after a while.

As such, I was thinking of changing my workflow a little. A typical autocal for 5x5x5 seems to take around 11-15 minutes. Too long for this ABL not to kick in. Could I step through say just blue colour only and then run my cable TV for a while then come back a later time. After the autocal does one colour, does it save that value into the lumagen? Meaning I can just do a save in the lumagen and perhaps even come back to the next colour a few days later? Not the best I know with drift etc but. I cannot think of anything else that would work.
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Originally Posted by oliverlim View Post
Question regarding step by step autocal with lumagen.

I have a LG 9300 OLED. It has agressive ABL that seems to dim the light output after some time. Not sure the exact time but in tens of seconds to mins. It does seem like it detects that a changing pattern is still a static pattern and dims it after a while.

As such, I was thinking of changing my workflow a little. A typical autocal for 5x5x5 seems to take around 11-15 minutes. Too long for this ABL not to kick in. Could I step through say just blue colour only and then run my cable TV for a while then come back a later time. After the autocal does one colour, does it save that value into the lumagen? Meaning I can just do a save in the lumagen and perhaps even come back to the next colour a few days later? Not the best I know with drift etc but. I cannot think of anything else that would work.
While the changes are saved into the lumagen as it goes, there is no way to start the process from a mid point.

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post #2721 of 2790 Old 05-20-2015, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Thanks for the clarification, one follow-up question do the luminance and saturation data-points or any other parameters need to be changed prior to running the lut ? The original question orginated because it is in the Lumagen LUT documentation on your site.
You're right that document is chalked full of misinformation.

When I calibrate (and test autocal) with a lumagen, I basically zero out the lumagen. Calibrate the cuts-n-gains in the display, calibrate a 21 point grayscale in the lumagen, then do a 3D LUT.
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post #2722 of 2790 Old 05-20-2015, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post
While the changes are saved into the lumagen as it goes, there is no way to start the process from a mid point.
Would you consider having this feature added? A way to stop and save the whole workflow to be continued at a later time?
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post #2723 of 2790 Old 05-20-2015, 09:01 PM
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Would you consider having this feature added? A way to stop and save the whole workflow to be continued at a later time?

Due to shifting electronic values, time as to how long the set has been on, and other factors - I really don't think stopping mid point, then continuing another day is a good idea. As a test - do your next to perfect calibration, shut down calibrating equipment and watch a half, to a full hour of programming, then fire up your calibrating equipment again - seriously doubt if you'll get the exact same results. Just the way it is with electronics - and, actually, that's how I calibrate - get the best I can, let programming run for an hour, then go back in and fine tune. Of course the next day, it won't come up the same, close, but not the same. Have done Grayscale late at night, run out of time, then went back in the next day to do the colour side of things - always have to re straighten up the Grayscale first.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post
While the changes are saved into the lumagen as it goes, there is no way to start the process from a mid point.

I'm sure your math is pretty good, but why not. Any point is just a point in a mathematical landscape, reselecting a section or point which was itself an error could correct a whole profile. I do this with linear calibrations and polynomials if a data point or reference is suspect. The final result would still need to be confirmed by the colour checker routines, but to me there is no real reason except hardwired routines.


If an argument is panel drift, well that would make the calibration a fail in the first place.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverlim View Post
Would you consider having this feature added? A way to stop and save the whole workflow to be continued at a later time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post
I'm sure your math is pretty good, but why not. Any point is just a point in a mathematical landscape, reselecting a section or point which was itself an error could correct a whole profile. I do this with linear calibrations and polynomials if a data point or reference is suspect.
The issue is that we need to persist the inflight memory state of what's completed and what's not. Especially with our DLC it's not a simple thing. It's certainly not impossible, it opens up some interesting possibilities.

It's something that has been discussed internally, but I can't commit to a timeline on that feature.

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post #2726 of 2790 Old 05-21-2015, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Due to shifting electronic values, time as to how long the set has been on, and other factors - I really don't think stopping mid point, then continuing another day is a good idea. As a test - do your next to perfect calibration, shut down calibrating equipment and watch a half, to a full hour of programming, then fire up your calibrating equipment again - seriously doubt if you'll get the exact same results. Just the way it is with electronics - and, actually, that's how I calibrate - get the best I can, let programming run for an hour, then go back in and fine tune. Of course the next day, it won't come up the same, close, but not the same. Have done Grayscale late at night, run out of time, then went back in the next day to do the colour side of things - always have to re straighten up the Grayscale first.
Its always the best to do it one time in a single session. But sometimes due to various reasons, getting it close enough and better then factory setup will help.
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Its always the best to do it one time in a single session. But sometimes due to various reasons, getting it close enough and better then factory setup will help.
Yes I don't think its a good idea to try and spread things across more than one session. For example sometimes the light will be a little dimmer or brighter - not enough for our eyes to tell without meters, but enough to throw off all the gamma calculations at a minimum.
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post #2728 of 2790 Old 05-26-2015, 08:31 AM
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tried to use the Panny VT25 isf and found the CMS locked out and the
settings like panel bright and other settings missing.
how do I turn on CMS and add other control settings?

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post #2729 of 2790 Old 06-01-2015, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
tried to use the Panny VT25 isf and found the CMS locked out and the
settings like panel bright and other settings missing.
how do I turn on CMS and add other control settings?
///

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post #2730 of 2790 Old 06-01-2015, 06:14 AM
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Sorry for asking if is answered before but i have an i1pro and a i1d3 but the second one is not fount from the Calman Colorchecker... anyone has an idea.
I am with windows 7 and for the i1 pro when i use HCFR and DispCalGuy i use argyll drivers and im fine but for everything else i choose the x-rite driver, unfortunately for the i1d3 i don't find a x-rite driver so i suppose thats why colorchecker cannot see it..

Can someone help?

thx
Chris
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