i1pro vs i1pro2????? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 66 Old 08-05-2012, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone upgraded to the i1pro2 from the i1pro?

What was your experience?????

Do you wish you had kept the i1pro?

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post #2 of 66 Old 08-05-2012, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Has anyone upgraded to the i1pro2 from the i1pro?
What was your experience?????
Do you wish you had kept the i1pro?

The i1Pro 2 improves on the one thing that was an issue the the Rev D and that was needing a dark cal every 10 minutes or so. The G2 can go hours now on a single dark cal. So I don't know anyone that would regret switching to a G2.

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post #3 of 66 Old 08-05-2012, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

The i1Pro 2 improves on the one thing that was an issue the the Rev D and that was needing a dark cal every 10 minutes or so. The G2 can go hours now on a single dark cal. So I don't know anyone that would regret switching to a G2.

how do you perform the dark cal on the original i1Pro? does it require the base plate or another part?


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post #4 of 66 Old 08-05-2012, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

how do you perform the dark cal on the original i1Pro? does it require the base plate or another part?

On the original the base plate was required for reflectance measurements, but for emissive measurements, only an opaque surface was required.

On the new model, it now does it's mechanical alignment based on reflectance reading after it dark cals, so it always requires the base plate, but you'll only need to do that one.

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post #5 of 66 Old 08-05-2012, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

On the original the base plate was required for reflectance measurements, but for emissive measurements, only an opaque surface was required.
On the new model, it now does it's mechanical alignment based on reflectance reading after it dark cals, so it always requires the base plate, but you'll only need to do that one.

by the new model you mean the i1Pro 2 (G2), not the i1Pro rev. D, correct?


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post #6 of 66 Old 08-05-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

by the new model you mean the i1Pro 2 (G2), not the i1Pro rev. D, correct?

Yes the last gen for the i1Pro was Rev D. The new i1Pro 2 is a Rev E. The design and evaluation project we worked on with X-Rite over the last for the i1Pro 2 year was the G2, so we often refer to it as the G2. But in any case it is the i1Pro 2 Rev E. The i1Pro 2 meter itself comes in many packages from X-Rite retail and OEM. In all cases the meter is the same it is just different X-Rite software and accessories. The key accessories needed for our industry is the dark cal and alignment base plate, ambient head and display hanging strap. Some useful accessories are a tripod holder, X-Rite now makes one and the one SpectraCal makes works on the Rev A-D and Rev E.

You need to make sure your software is using the latest SDK interface from X-Rite because the i1Pro 2 Rev E can also be ran in legacy mode as a Rev D but you don’t get any of the new features. The new features include a much longer and dynamic dark cal timer that can last up to several hours. Mechanical sensor alignment done while a dark cal is performed. A USB power check to make sure your USB port is providing correct power to run the i1Pro 2 Rev E. Indicator lights on top if the meter that are programmable. With CalMAN we flash the lights white while in standby, turn them green briefly on a successful read, turn them red on any failure.

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post #7 of 66 Old 08-05-2012, 05:36 PM
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About the dark readings:

I had previously posted the following thread. Post 7 was my conclusion: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1323457/i1pro-dark-readings-i-dont-get-it

I just now completed a two hour test on a different LCD TV, sixteen months after the previous test. The i1Pro was in the non contact mode and both it and the display had been given a one hour warm up before the two hour time period began. After the warm up period the meter was given a dark reading. In the attached calibration report, the "before" readings were taken two hours after the warm up with no further dark readings. The "after" readings represent a new dark reading accomplished immediately after the "before" measurements. The difference between the two readings is negligible. The meter didn't drift and in this case neither did the TV. I have all the data from 0 hours, 1 hour, and 2 hours.

Final_Report_After_Dark_Reading_AVS.pdf 490k .pdf file
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File Type: pdf Final_Report_After_Dark_Reading_AVS.pdf (490.4 KB, 58 views)
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post #8 of 66 Old 08-05-2012, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

About the dark readings:
I had previously posted the following thread. Post 7 was my conclusion: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1323457/i1pro-dark-readings-i-dont-get-it
I just now completed a two hour test on a different LCD TV, sixteen months after the previous test. The i1Pro was in the non contact mode and both it and the display had been given a one hour warm up before the two hour time period began. After the warm up period the meter was given a dark reading. In the attached calibration report, the "before" readings were taken two hours after the warm up with no further dark readings. The "after" readings represent a new dark reading accomplished immediately after the "before" measurements. The difference between the two readings is negligible. The meter didn't drift and in this case neither did the TV. I have all the data from 0 hours, 1 hour, and 2 hours.
Final_Report_After_Dark_Reading_AVS.pdf 490k .pdf file

would the results be any different in contact mode?


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post #9 of 66 Old 08-07-2012, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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So when you use the i1pro2 to calibrate a i1display3 pro, do you use the i1pro2 in contact mode or back if off some from the plasma display?

I know that some people use the i1pro and I guess will use the i1pro2 to do their full calibration rather than using it to set up another meter that reads at a lower light level.

Any of you use the i1pro (2) for the full calibration and if so are there any advantages?

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post #10 of 66 Old 08-07-2012, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

would the results be any different in contact mode?

No.

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post #11 of 66 Old 08-07-2012, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

No.

is this because LCDs don't get as hot as plasmas or does it also apply to plasmas as well?


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post #12 of 66 Old 08-07-2012, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

So when you use the i1pro2 to calibrate a i1display3 pro, do you use the i1pro2 in contact mode or back if off some from the plasma display?

I know that some people use the i1pro and I guess will use the i1pro2 to do their full calibration rather than using it to set up another meter that reads at a lower light level.
Any of you use the i1pro (2) for the full calibration and if so are there any advantages?

technically speaking, you should use it for all gamut work

however, for the grayscale low end, the profiled colorimeter should be both faster and more accurate (especially if you're doing 10 or 20 point grayscale/gamma)


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post #13 of 66 Old 08-07-2012, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

is this because LCDs don't get as hot as plasmas or does it also apply to plasmas as well?

No and yes. It's because temperatures were consistent. To calibrate a plasma with a contact meter you need to warm the TV up with the meter in place for about an hour.

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post #14 of 66 Old 08-07-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

To calibrate a plasma with a contact meter you need to warm the TV up with the meter in place for about an hour.

I have found I need a 30 min meter warm up for LCDs as well. Any less and all readings are way off (such as grayscale/gamma and peak white). This is with a C6 used in contact mode with an LG CCFL-LCD TV.

And this LCD TV needs up to 90 mins to 2 hours before it reads the highest/stable peak white values. So, meter and display warming up together for 30 mins to an hour is a good idea for both LCD and plasma flat panels when using a meter in contact mode.


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post #15 of 66 Old 08-07-2012, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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It's considered normal to have your display warm up to the point of being stable but has anyone had a chance to check the new i1pro2 to see if it's o.k. to use right away or do you also have to have it plugged in for an hour for it to read correctly?

Has anyone encountered problems with laptop usb ports not outputting correct voltages and causing erroneous readings????

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post #16 of 66 Old 08-08-2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I have found I need a 30 min meter warm up for LCDs as well. Any less and all readings are way off (such as grayscale/gamma and peak white). This is with a C6 used in contact mode with an LG CCFL-LCD TV.
And this LCD TV needs up to 90 mins to 2 hours before it reads the highest/stable peak white values. So, meter and display warming up together for 30 mins to an hour is a good idea for both LCD and plasma flat panels when using a meter in contact mode.

I asked in another thread about meter/display warmup and this is what Tom Huffman had to say:
Quote:
Meters in non-contact mode do NOT have to be warmed up. In contact mode, getting a meter to warm to match the display's heat is a bad thing, not a desirable goal. Ideally, measure in non-contact mode 1-2 ft from the display. Displays need warming up. Meters do not.

Would you agree with this? I used to measure contact always, but the above statement by Tom made me order a tripod to be able to do non contact measurments from now on.
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post #17 of 66 Old 08-08-2012, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

I asked in another thread about meter/display warmup and this is what Tom Huffman had to say:
Would you agree with this? I used to measure contact always, but the above statement by Tom made me order a tripod to be able to do non contact measurments from now on.

I wouldn't exactly agree.

It is true that sensors will have their lowest noise floor when cool. So non-contact modes are usually preferable.

But many sensors also now have thermal compensation to keep the readings inline as they do change temperature, and the new i1 Pro 2 with it's aluminum chassis does a great job of thermally isolating the sensors. Lastly sensors that aren't compensated and will fluctuate with temperature like an i1 D2, warming up the the sensor is about the only way you'll be able to get repeatable results.

So meters work best cold.
Good meters aren't that sensitive to temperature.
Meters that are sensitive to temperature need to be held stable.

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post #18 of 66 Old 08-08-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I wouldn't exactly agree.
It is true that sensors will have their lowest noise floor when cool. So non-contact modes are usually preferable.
But many sensors also now have thermal compensation to keep the readings inline as they do change temperature, and the new i1 Pro 2 with it's aluminum chassis does a great job of thermally isolating the sensors. Lastly sensors that aren't compensated and will fluctuate with temperature like an i1 D2, warming up the the sensor is about the only way you'll be able to get repeatable results.
So meters work best cold.
Good meters aren't that sensitive to temperature.
Meters that are sensitive to temperature need to be held stable.

which category does the C6 fall in? are there any issues with using it fully warmed up in contact mode on a LCD or plasma?


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post #19 of 66 Old 08-08-2012, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

I asked in another thread about meter/display warmup and this is what Tom Huffman had to say:
Would you agree with this? I used to measure contact always, but the above statement by Tom made me order a tripod to be able to do non contact measurments from now on.

I don't agree because I get screwy readings in contact mode without a meter warm-up period. If these meters (D3/C6) were not designed to be used in contact mode, why do they have long cables with counterweights attached?


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post #20 of 66 Old 08-08-2012, 05:28 PM
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I'd modify that statement to,

Meters work best at the temp they have themselves been calibrated at by the factory or secondary calibration service.

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post #21 of 66 Old 08-08-2012, 05:29 PM
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and there is also the issue of ambient light when using non-contact mode, which forces you to calibrate at night if you don't have a light-controlled room


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post #22 of 66 Old 08-08-2012, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I don't agree because I get screwy readings in contact mode without a meter warm-up period. If these meters (D3/C6) were not designed to be used in contact mode, why do they have long cables with counterweights attached?

Aren't they designed to calibrate cold lcd computer screens instead of scorching hot plasma's? And how do pro's with jeti's deal with ambient light issues then?
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post #23 of 66 Old 08-09-2012, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I don't agree because I get screwy readings in contact mode without a meter warm-up period. If these meters (D3/C6) were not designed to be used in contact mode, why do they have long cables with counterweights attached?

Aren't they designed to calibrate cold lcd computer screens instead of scorching hot plasma's? And how do pro's with jeti's deal with ambient light issues then?

I always find out if the client can black out their room, if not I just do it in the evening.

Tyler Pruitt - Technical Liaison at SpectraCal
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post #24 of 66 Old 08-09-2012, 12:18 AM
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I always find out if the client can black out their room, if not I just do it in the evening.

Then how do you calibrate for daytime use of the tv? Or do you only do darkroom calibrations wink.gif
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post #25 of 66 Old 08-09-2012, 03:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I don't agree because I get screwy readings in contact mode without a meter warm-up period. If these meters (D3/C6) were not designed to be used in contact mode, why do they have long cables with counterweights attached?

Where did you get your meters or who last recalibrated them for you?

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post #26 of 66 Old 08-09-2012, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

Then how do you calibrate for daytime use of the tv? Or do you only do darkroom calibrations wink.gif

Calibrating for day viewing does not mean you calibrate in a bright room where the screen will be subject to external light and reflections. The final test is to view the display in that particular daytime environment but the measurements should not be taken there. There will be some amount of guesswork as to required peak light output (one window or ten). In the case of plasmas with limited output the answer is simple - max light without clipping or otherwise degrading the picture.

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post #27 of 66 Old 08-09-2012, 04:40 AM
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My plasma does not show white clipping with panellight at max and constrast at max. Do you mean that I should set them at max? I now set contrast to the max light output that they recommend, the 130 ftl thing.
And I allways thought that with the brightness pattern on the avs709 disc you could use it in a dark room and a day room, because in a daylight room you have to set brightness higher before you can see 17 flash than in a dark room.
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post #28 of 66 Old 08-09-2012, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

My plasma does not show white clipping with panellight at max and constrast at max. Do you mean that I should set them at max? I now set contrast to the max light output that they recommend, the 130 ftl thing.
And I allways thought that with the brightness pattern on the avs709 disc you could use it in a dark room and a day room, because in a daylight room you have to set brightness higher before you can see 17 flash than in a dark room.

Which plasma do you have?

By the way, I don't think there was ever a plasma that output 130 ftl

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post #29 of 66 Old 08-09-2012, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

My plasma does not show white clipping with panellight at max and constrast at max. Do you mean that I should set them at max? I now set contrast to the max light output that they recommend, the 130 ftl thing.
And I allways thought that with the brightness pattern on the avs709 disc you could use it in a dark room and a day room, because in a daylight room you have to set brightness higher before you can see 17 flash than in a dark room.

I think your 130 is cd/m2, not FtL. Plasmas don't normally output much more than 45 FtL. No, I said max output without clipping and that includes color clipping as well as white.

You are correct in that black level should be set for the viewing environment. However, calibrating in that environment might produce inaccurate reads for reasons previously stated.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 


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post #30 of 66 Old 08-09-2012, 05:27 AM
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Thanks for your patient replies, my learningcurve is still a bit steep wink.gif

I probably do mean cd/m2 :P

How do I check color clipping, just display a colorscale chart in AVS HD709 and raise contrast as long as no colors clip?

And if you first calibrate in a dark room, and then adjust black level for viewing environment, won''t that mess up my previous calibration? Is the most ideal workflow for a daytime calibration then 1. set brightness and sharpness in normal viewing conditions 2.,darken the room and pull out the meters, 3. whenever you need to return to black level open up the curtain again?
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