ADC RESULT VARIATIONS - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 08-13-2012, 01:35 AM - Thread Starter
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two questions from newbie to an expert forum, when i use a DVD's 16-235 Checkerboard pattern, i'm always getting ADC RESULTS with gains between "71" and "72" depending on different subcontrast (i get more resolution "like" and more "vivid" colors with that gain). My question is:

a) if there is a problem or am i doing something wrong if i get more than "70" after ADC CALIBRATION with 16-235?.

b) For example, "creating" and ADC RESULT, i prefer subcontrast 133, if i set it to 133 and then make and ADC Callibration the result is 133(subcontast)-72(gain) but if i set subcontrast to 134 my ADC result is 134(subcontrast)-71(gain). If i change one point my subcontrast, the result may vary, is it normal?.

thank you very much

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post #2 of 24 Old 08-13-2012, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post

two questions from newbie to an expert forum, when i use a DVD's 16-235 Checkerboard pattern, i'm always getting ADC RESULTS with gains between "71" and "72" depending on different subcontrast (i get more resolution "like" and more "vivid" colors with that gain). My question is:
a) if there is a problem or am i doing something wrong if i get more than "70" after ADC CALIBRATION with 16-235?.
b) For example, "creating" and ADC RESULT, i prefer subcontrast 133, if i set it to 133 and then make and ADC Callibration the result is 133(subcontast)-72(gain) but if i set subcontrast to 134 my ADC result is 134(subcontrast)-71(gain). If i change one point my subcontrast, the result may vary, is it normal?.
thank you very much

I have one question. Why would a newbie be messing around in the service menu with the factory ADC calibrations? This is an area that even the pro calibrators don't touch during a calibration.
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post #3 of 24 Old 08-13-2012, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry PlasmaPZ80U,
i'm learning about callibration, i'm tryng not messing around the service menu, with the help and patience of another AVS members i'm learning to do it (making callibration that aling results with 16-235 or 0-255). I have seen that the callibration from a 16-235 pattern delivers results that provide better color and illuminance to the scene for movies respecting even the 0-255 spaces for when used to play games.

I have seen in distintc Samsung TVs that the ADC Callibration uses different ADC Results and i wonder why and if it's normal that with Delta 2 in ADC Target, the reult vary if you use one point more in the subcontrast or in the gain, i wanted to ask to the expert community.

Thank you very much

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post #4 of 24 Old 08-13-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post

Sorry PlasmaPZ80U,
i'm learning about callibration, i'm tryng not messing around the service menu, with the help and patience of another AVS members i'm learning to do it (making callibration that aling results with 16-235 or 0-255). I have seen that the callibration from a 16-235 pattern delivers results that provide better color and illuminance to the scene for movies respecting even the 0-255 spaces for when used to play games.
I have seen in distintc Samsung TVs that the ADC Callibration uses different ADC Results and i wonder why and if it's normal that with Delta 2 in ADC Target, the reult vary if you use one point more in the subcontrast or in the gain, i wanted to ask to the expert community.
Thank you very much

I understand your point of view. I'm just pointing out that the ADC Calibration is already done correctly on the TV when you buy it and this is not an area you need to do anything with (not to mention hundreds on this forum have and ended up making things massively worse/bricking their set by playing around in the ADC portion of the SM on Samsung TVs). This is not an area of calibration usually worked on by DIY nor pro calibrators, largely due to the fact it is already set correctly at the factory and that calibrators don't have the necessary tools to do it themselves. It is a step performed on the factory floor as the TVs are being assembled.
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post #5 of 24 Old 08-13-2012, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok PlasmaPZ80U, of course, again, you are right but i have a low-end model (UE40C5100), and to make a good callibration, i need to acces the Service Menu, knowing what i'm doing of course. For example my default colour space it's very basic ("HUESAT") and to callibrate the color correctly i need to change it to "RGB TYPE" (to get control with RGB-CMYK). Another thing that brings me a lot of picture quality it's the ADC Callibration that i have said (using a 16-235 pattern) to get better colors and contrast for movies and respecting the space for 0-255 to play games or tu use a computer. I think that this control (ADC Callibration and ADC Reuslt) it's very useful (in low-end models especially), my low-end tv by default it's configured with an ADC RESULT with subcontrast 132 and 50 to RGB Gains (as if the manufacturer had used a 0-255 pattern to callibrate it), on the contrary in the Service Menu's high end Samsung Tvs i've seen the ADC RESULT has been realized using a 16-235 pattern with sucontrast at 134 or less and RGB Gains with 68 or more, This ADC RESULT gives them a little more resolution (almost imperceptible) and better color quality.

Please, believe me, i'm not here to make changes to my tv to get things for nothing like pvr or, in my opinion, bad "enhacements" like "dynamic mega contrast boost" or something like that, i'm here to learn from the best,



My question it's why the ADC varies with a target Delta 2 (or even 1) when i change in one point the subcontrast or the gains or at least if someone could tell me if it's normal.

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post #6 of 24 Old 08-13-2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post

Ok PlasmaPZ80U, of course, again, you are right but i have a low-end model (UE40C5100), and to make a good callibration, i need to acces the Service Menu, knowing what i'm doing of course. For example my default colour space it's very basic ("HUESAT") and to callibrate the color correctly i need to change it to "RGB TYPE" (to get control with RGB-CMYK). Another thing that brings me a lot of picture quality it's the ADC Callibration that i have said (using a 16-235 pattern) to get better colors and contrast for movies and respecting the space for 0-255 to play games or tu use a computer. I think that this control (ADC Callibration and ADC Reuslt) it's very useful (in low-end models especially), my low-end tv by default it's configured with an ADC RESULT with subcontrast 132 and 50 to RGB Gains (as if the manufacturer had used a 0-255 pattern to callibrate it), on the contrary in the Service Menu's high end Samsung Tvs i've seen the ADC RESULT has been realized using a 16-235 pattern with sucontrast at 134 or less and RGB Gains with 68 or more, This ADC RESULT gives them a little more resolution (almost imperceptible) and better color quality.
Please, believe me, i'm not here to make changes to my tv to get things for nothing like pvr or, in my opinion, bad "enhacements" like "dynamic mega contrast boost" or something like that, i'm here to learn from the best,
My question it's why the ADC varies with a target Delta 2 (or even 1) when i change in one point the subcontrast or the gains or at least if someone could tell me if it's normal.

What I'm saying is what you're doing is largely (if not completely) unnecessary. It you want to optimize PQ, just do a standard calibration that includes grayscale/gamma/color gamut.
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post #7 of 24 Old 08-13-2012, 06:52 PM
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post #8 of 24 Old 08-14-2012, 01:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok Zoyd, thank you for the response and for your patience. I think it's all about the DELTA in the ADC TARGET, if you set a DELTA 1 it's as if you increase the accuracy (by 1) in the result, One or two or three units is it ok ? (i think for 16-235 the gain must be 70 as max and i get sometimes, depending on subcontrast 71, 72 or 73).

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post #9 of 24 Old 08-14-2012, 09:35 AM
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Right now, you are lucky your TV is still working. You may soon own a lower-end Samsung TV that only displays a black screen if you don't stop.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
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post #10 of 24 Old 08-14-2012, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you very much for your advice Doug, i take a lot of caution with service menu. I don't have any problem with the ADC alignment, i have those values changed for 6 months and don't have any problem. But, thank you very much again for your advice and your experience.

Zoyd, I think it's all about the DELTA in the ADC TARGET, if you set a DELTA 1 it's as if you increase the accuracy (by 1) in the result, One or two or three units is it ok ? (i think for 16-235 the gain must be 70 as max and i get sometimes, depending on subcontrast 71, 72 or 73).

Last question about callibrate a lower-end tv, i don't have "10 pt callibration" to adjust gamma or another parameters, what can i do to get a correct value?

@Europe, you can contact me in www.diariosdelanube.com
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post #11 of 24 Old 08-14-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post

Thank you very much for your advice Doug, i take a lot of caution with service menu. I don't have any problem with the ADC alignment, i have those values changed for 6 months and don't have any problem. But, thank you very much again for your advice and your experience.
Zoyd, I think it's all about the DELTA in the ADC TARGET, if you set a DELTA 1 it's as if you increase the accuracy (by 1) in the result, One or two or three units is it ok ? (i think for 16-235 the gain must be 70 as max and i get sometimes, depending on subcontrast 71, 72 or 73).
Last question about callibrate a lower-end tv, i don't have "10 pt callibration" to adjust gamma or another parameters, what can i do to get a correct value?

What Doug and I are trying to say is that nothing good will come with changing settings in the ADC Calibration portion of the service menu (and most others areas of the SM for that matter); however, bricking your set is entirely possible and has happened to far more people on this forum and others than you might realize. Just because nothing has gone wrong so far doesn't mean it still can't. Beyond a normal calibration in the user menu, there is nothing further you can do to improve PQ (short of getting a external video processor, which would likely cost more than your TV).
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post #12 of 24 Old 08-14-2012, 11:05 AM
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Regarding the limited picture settings on your TV (2-pt grayscale with gamma presets but no CMS nor 10-pt grayscale/gamma), you make do with what you have and you might find the results to still be pretty good. BTW, are you using a meter to do a full grayscale/gamma calibration on this TV? If so, which meter? My guess is whatever you're unhappy with regarding your display currently is either a calibration issue (normal calibration, not factory ADC calibration) or simply a display hardware limitation. What issues do you have with your TV at the moment and what are you specifically trying to improve about the picture on it?
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post #13 of 24 Old 08-14-2012, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok PlasmaPZ80U,
my problem it's that i have founded a "new and exciting universe" of visual pleasure doing callibration and learning here from people like you or like Zoyd. Initially i have done all the job using my eye like a meter before pass to the "next level" using a meter. I have tried to make a correct ADC, with 2pt adjusting my greyscale, using basic patterns to set gamma 2.2, color and hue with a blue filter pattern and learn about it (very simple things to learn the "theory") and now ready to do with a meter (i'll buy a i1Display or a Spyder 2, it for hobbie not professional use). I'm simply learning from you and for somebody that want to explain.

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post #14 of 24 Old 08-14-2012, 07:38 PM
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a good meter to start with is the D3, bundled with CalMAN... since the v5 release is around the corner, I'd wait to see what offers they have then... right now the package I'd recommend is the following:

http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman-video-calibration/calman-software-w-oem-i1display.html


the following is much cheaper but the meter is not nearly as good and can provide very wrong results on some displays and also after it drifts (which it can quite occur quickly if you don't store it properly)... it also has been reported to produce a result that is much too red/pink in some cases

http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman-video-calibration/calman-software-w-i1display2.html


there also used to be a bundle with the new Spyder 4 enhanced but I don't know what happened since it's gone from the website
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post #15 of 24 Old 08-16-2012, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you very much for your advice and information. What do you think about Spyder 2?

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post #16 of 24 Old 08-16-2012, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post

Thank you very much for your advice and information. What do you think about Spyder 2?

I'd avoid it. The Spyder meters (1/2/3/4) all have filters that are completely exposed, which means they can drift quite easily and quite quickly. They also have a lot of unit to unit variation meaning some meters are reasonably accurate, some are decent/fair, and some are total crap. The D2 is the same in this department filter-wise, though more consistent in terms of unit to unit variation. The D3 has sealed filters that are not directly exposed to the elements and is also generally more accurate and consistent than the other colorimeters that are cheaper and it can read much lower as well.

I would get the D3 for someone just starting out like yourself. It is somewhat more expensive than a D2 or Spyder, but will last longer and be more accurate from the start and return more accurate readings at the dark end of the grayscale. You can always add an affordable spectro in the future like a used i1Pro to maximize accuracy across all display types and samples (though you don't need to if you're not looking for absolute perfection and have a more restrictive budget for calibration).

Also, I'd wait for CalMANv5 to come out to see if any special one-time offers pop-up. It shouldn't be long now.
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post #17 of 24 Old 08-17-2012, 09:52 AM
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[quote name="PlasmaPZ80U"Also, I'd wait for CalMANv5 to come out to see if any special one-time offers pop-up. It shouldn't be long now.[/quote]

We should be announcing upgrade offers for "CalMAN 5 for Home use" in a few days including meter bundles.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
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post #18 of 24 Old 08-17-2012, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

We should be announcing upgrade offers for "CalMAN 5 for Home use" in a few days including meter bundles.

does that mean the software is going to be released in a few days?
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post #19 of 24 Old 08-17-2012, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

a good meter to start with is the D3, bundled with CalMAN... since the v5 release is around the corner, I'd wait to see what offers they have then... right now the package I'd recommend is the following:
http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman-video-calibration/calman-software-w-oem-i1display.html

I have been kicking around the TV I will purchase (probably an E8000 as the store with the best return policy only has the E8000).

Now for my meter/software it has essentially come down to this lot:

http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman-video-calibration/calman-software-w-oem-i1display.html (which you cited above).

For just a few dollars more there is this:

http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman-video-calibration/calman-software-w-i1display-pro.html

To go to the "other side" there is this:

http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_EyeOneDisplay3.shtm

with the "enhanced" version which is quite a lot more and I am not seeing a deep explanation of the enhancement.

For the moment, I am leaning towards the second url above.

Do you agree? I know there are statements that one version of the meter may not work with other programs etc but leave that out for the moment.
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post #20 of 24 Old 08-17-2012, 05:34 PM
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The first two are pretty much the same, but one comes with the Retail i1Display Pro that includes the X-rite software and the other one is the OEM version (edit and comes with a GetGray pattern disc). The OEM version works with CalMAN, HCFR and Chromapure, but the Retail one only works with CalMAN and HCFR. The Enhanced version, or what Chromapure calls the i1Display 3 Pro (not to be mistaken as being the same as the regular i1Display Pro) is the same meter but it has been calibrated by Chromapure. SpectralCal also has their own version of this meter called the C6, which has been calibrated and tweaked to be faster I think. It also comes with a tripod and carrying case.
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post #21 of 24 Old 08-17-2012, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterG View Post

I have been kicking around the TV I will purchase (probably an E8000 as the store with the best return policy only has the E8000).
Now for my meter/software it has essentially come down to this lot:
http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman-video-calibration/calman-software-w-oem-i1display.html (which you cited above).
For just a few dollars more there is this:
http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman-video-calibration/calman-software-w-i1display-pro.html
To go to the "other side" there is this:
http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_EyeOneDisplay3.shtm
with the "enhanced" version which is quite a lot more and I am not seeing a deep explanation of the enhancement.
For the moment, I am leaning towards the second url above.
Do you agree? I know there are statements that one version of the meter may not work with other programs etc but leave that out for the moment.

I'd avoid the enhanced meters. If you really want absolute accuracy across all display types and samples, you'd be better off pairing the 'standard' D3 colorimeter with a spectro. Also, the first two meters are basically the same, except for the few differences noted by the poster above.
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post #22 of 24 Old 08-17-2012, 05:50 PM
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A spectro/regular D3 combo is ideal, but it's kind of pricey. An enhanced version is a great option if money is an issue IMO.
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post #23 of 24 Old 08-17-2012, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

A spectro/regular D3 combo is ideal, but it's kind of pricey. An enhanced version is a great option if money is an issue IMO.

at first glance that might seem to be true until you read this

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/

in summary, you're better off saving up for a spectro in the future if you want better accuracy since spending hundreds extra on enhanced meters doesn't guarantee better accuracy than a stock meter on a given display

I've been there done that (have owned the X2, D3 PRO, and currently the C6... I just got a used i1Pro spectro and will be receiving it next week). If I could go back, I would have never bothered with enhanced meters and just used that cash to go towards a spectro in the first place.
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post #24 of 24 Old 08-17-2012, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

at first glance that might seem to be true until you read this
http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/

that is *exactly* what I was just reading smile.gif

Snap!

Edit: I had read this before on Michael Chen's site but was actually browsing through the forum on the other side of the Atlantic with a very similar name to this one and they linked to Michael's article again. I was doing this before replying to both of you guys. It made a bit of depressing reading frown.gif

I earlier was looking at this:

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html

and going through this thread again:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1342422/x-rites-revolutionary-new-colorimeter/840_60

In any event, I really appreciate both of your feedback.
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